Oedipus_Tex
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Posts
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Quote:Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
... well, you obviously weren't familiar with NCSoft's long established track record...
Well that's something we can agree on.
I should add btw Kitsune that I hope this doesn't seem personal. I think you have a lot of good points. I just get a little testy when my money gets involved--especially when it's glaringly obvious the company had this planned for some time but continued to allow powerset sales, which many players would not have made had they been aware of the game's looming deadline. I definitely didn't think the game would last forever. This is not my first game sunset, or even the most traumatic one. I still feel suckered by the company and it would take a monumental effort for me to invest heavily in them again.
I do still think companies in NCSoft's position need to think hard about the nature of their business model though. The "free to play" model is quickly falling into many of the traps that endangered the old "pay for access" models. For players to pay you money for goods, they have to believe that the goods have value. We may know in a "rational" sense that they do not, but reminding your customers of that is never, ever a good thing and must be very carefully managed. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Brillig
In other words "never."
More like "long enough not to do serious damage to your company currency." But that's really beside the point. The company has shown its hand. Its virtual products are of lower value than I originally anticipated. Shame on me for buying them. I won't make the same mistake twice. As someone who seems keenly interested in actors making self-interested decisions that should delight you. I, like NCSoft, am capable of making decisions about my financial situation and where I am willing to risk an investment.
Maybe that means the company was selling placebos all along. Well, now I know.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
No, you didn't. And I was asking you what would be one, in a case where they decide to shut down a game. An ethical one, since you expressly stated that giving three months notice was unethical.
For an MMO serving a multi national audience, with strong overlap with other products marketed by the same company? Personally I would say that to maintain the illusion of virtual products having real world value, the preferred path is probably a server merge and transition to backburner status. Some people will say that the financials don't support this, but I very much disagree. The value of your virtual currency depends entirely on how much trust your users place in it.
Remember that in the modern MMO what is being sold primarily is no longer subscriptions (ie access to service), it is virtual goods. These goods only have value when the illusion of durability exists. People simply will not pay for these items when they think the game could shut down at any minute (as many people clearly would not have with Nature Affinity and Water Blast had they seen what is the cards for the game very shortly thereafter).
That some companies start MMOs with no carefully pre-determined sunset plan is obvious, but that most modern MMOs fail in spectacular fashion is equally apparent. One thing I can at least say for Blizzard is that they have at least long understood the value of leveraging legacy products as marketing tools and vessels of community goodwill, in ways companies like EA and (apparently) NCSoft do not. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Ah, so you wanted them to fire Paragon, and not tell us. Then it would have been perfectly fine. If they had shut down the servers yesterday, I'd say you'd have a case for 'unethical'... but they're not for three months.
I didn't prescribe any particular course of action. Just a word of warning for them: sunsetting a game is as much a marketing issue as it is a financial one, if you plan to stay in the business with a similar product. I have been through this process before as a team member supporting other software products. Be careful of reminding your customers just how temporary their virtual purchases are. What you are selling isn't a real product. It's trust. In a world where every new MMO didn't bottom out within a few months, that might not be a lesson that needed to be taught. But here we are.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, etc. I won't be boycotting, but that's the last of my virtual purchases. Sorry NCSoft, but you took away my confidence, and I don't give a flying fig about your labor force, taxes, or other games. I can't trust you, so I'm not buying what you're selling on trust. The end. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Brillig
You're ignoring the fact that any other service provider would behave in exactly the same fashion in the same situation (i.e. closing a subsidiary studio.)
And calling it sociopathic behavior misses the mark as well. If they had no respect for their customers, they could have just pulled the plug on the servers today.
I know a lot of people are very upset. I'm one of them. But imagining that NCSoft has some higher responsibility to keep the game running is just self-delusion.
I didn't ask for the game to stay open indefinitely. I did say that I think selling a powerset 10 days before announcing a shut down of the game is pushing the edge of unethical behavior. Whether it crosses a legal threshold or not is completely irrelevant. The fact that some businesses would do the same thing is also irrelevant. Some businesses are willing to screw their customers. These are usually businesses I avoid. End of discussion.
I don't know what it is about the way NCSoft has handled this situation that impresses you so much, but I do think you are someone with minimal expectations, or at least a very literally legal interpretation thereof. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
So you're saying NCSoft should have continued paying a bunch of people, while telling them to not work?
No. I'm saying that their relationship to their workforce has exactly zero to do with their relationship to customers and if they had any respect for their customers that would be the bottom line. But it isn't. I get that some people feel the need to defend the rights of corporations to act like sociopaths, but then that's why this industry is in the state it's in. Sales of electronic goods are based on goodwill and trust, and as a player they are not a company I can trust.
IMO corporations are not the only ones allowed to look out for their own interests. Sociopathy is a not virtue just because its perpetrated by a multi-national organization. The idea that I, as a person who bought Nature Affinity 8 days before the parent company decided to also announce cancellation of the game, should let it slide just because that company was also planning a mass layoff and needed to keep it secret from their own employees is simply bizarre to me. I am not here to collude with them against their own development team. Their labor relations are not my concern whatsoever and the idea that I should be the middleman in that equation is simply absurd. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Brillig
A third possibility: those blurbs are published by Paragon Studios and Paragon had no idea what was coming down.
With no malice intended toward you: that is truly beside the point. It doesn't matter who in the chain was publishing the messages. If NCSoft intended to pull the plug, that is when they need to tell the developers that they should be dialing back services. The fact that NCSoft was also planning to screw Paragon Studios at the time they were screwing City of Heroes customers doesn't make their case any better. They were apparantly so worried about doing a clean pull out from under the developers that they decided to let customers take the fall. That's simply inexcusable.
Personally, I think it's letting this company off the hook much too easily to simply say "business is business."
I'm also wondering what will happen with unspent Paragon Points. They are naturally going to claim that they are forfeit, and there is a no-returns policy. I hope for their sake every country in which they do business agrees. Even though nothing would likely ever come of it, if the idea was that they could take cash from customers and then walk away clean in a few months time, the fact that they've been dealing in virtual currency could come back to bite them hard--if not in this particular timeframe, over this game, then eventually. I'm constantly amazed at how efficient this industry is at screwing itself over. -
I think the photographic evidence is pretty damning, personally:
There are only two possibilities from this photo:
1) NCSoft made the decision to cut City of Heroes in 10 or fewer days. In which case, they are crazy.
2) They deliberatley misled us into buying a powerset they had no intention of supporting on even a semi-long term basis.
I have\ never before accused a game company of straight up lying, but that's exactly what happened here. They lied, and took my money. I have no legal recourse, and am not really seeking it. But this company doesn't have a shred of respect for its own customers and I would urge anyone considering making micropurchases from them to reconsider. -
There is one aspect of City of Heroes that might make it somewhat easier to replicate (but only somewhat): most of the powers appear to be interpretted from XML or spreadsheets and not hard code. This is actually quite different from spells in many games. Believe it or not, in a lot of RPGs, each spell is hand-coded individually with script. I'm not sure on the technical side whether big hitters like WoW generally hand code, but based on how their spells interact with builds, it wouldn't surprise me. We have a much better idea of how our spells operate in general than many similar MMOs.
One aspect that I think will be very very hard to replicate exactly without direct access to server code is knockback. Although its possible some of that is embedded in the client (ragdoll must be). It is my impression that knockback is handled by the server and only animated by the client though. -
I posted this in the "where will you go thread." Sorry if it seems like spam. Text-based games may not be on everyone's radar, but if you are looking for a "community" game like CoX the ones below might be worth some time. Both are initially pretty complex but they get easier with time (and due to a helpful community).
For the heavy roleplayers or people looking for something very different, I am considering returning to one of the two games below. IMO, anyone who is considering a career in game design should at least log a month or two in these games and look at what possibilities are out there in terms of multi-player systems. Both games have very tight communities, in some ways similar to CoH. Both cost money (last I checked $15 a month) but you get lots of interaction with the developer team.
Gemstone IV was originally created in 1989(!) It is an experience-based game with 9 classes. The game has been under continuous development for literally decades. Injuries are semi-realistic (a blow to your hand may make you bleed or cut it off completely); Empaths here can only heal themselves; they heal you by first "transferring" wounds to themselves. Enemies sometimes drop chests that Thieves can open... if they don't fail to disarm any traps on them. The "simpler" game (IMO) than Dragonrealms, which was its sequel, but about equally popular.
Main site: http://www.play.net/gs4/
Class descriptions: http://www.play.net/gs4/info/professions/
Dragonrealms is a sequel to Gemstone IV, originally released in 1996. Its exp-system is skill-based. Features some unusual classes (Moon Mage: cast spells that vary in power based on the current phases of the planet's 3 moons, Empaths: as above, but they take a vow to never injure any living creature except the undead, Necromancer: you must live your existence in secret, if another player ever figures out you are a Necro and you are inside town they can attack you or have you arrested by authorities). Like GS4, the game world is HUGE (and unlike most huge worlds, what's out there is actually interesting, too.)
Main site: http://www.play.net/dr/
Profession/Class descriptions: http://www.play.net/dr/info/guilds/guilds.asp
Races: http://www.play.net/dr/info/races/races.asp
Combat: http://www.play.net/dr/info/combat.asp -
Quote:Originally Posted by SteelDominator
Wow thank you for sharing, perhaps NCsoft will see this as a domino affect and reconsider.
Highly doubtful, unfortunately, that they would reconsider at this point.
But I bet it will be less than two months before we see another arcticle in Forbes magazine or somewhere similar, bemoaning how unloyal today's players are and how the MMO industry just can't pick up steam.
I doubt if there an industry on Earth that thinks less of its customers than MMO publishers. -
Within the CoH story, Oedipus Tex dies. That was my ultimate intention when I created the character, and the only logical, final outcome. I knew it would be someday.
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For the heavy roleplayers or people looking for something very different, I am considering returning to one of the two games below. IMO, anyone who is considering a career in game design should at least log a month or two in these games and look at what possibilities are out there in terms of multi-player systems. Both games have very tight communities, in some ways similar to CoH. Both cost money (last I checked $15 a month) but you get lots of interaction with the developer team.
Gemstone IV was originally created in 1989(!) It is an experience-based game with 9 classes. The game has been under continuous development for literally decades. Injuries are semi-realistic (a blow to your hand may make you bleed or cut it off completely); Empaths here can only heal themselves; they heal you by first "transferring" wounds to themselves. Enemies sometimes drop chests that Thieves can open... if they don't fail to disarm any traps on them. The "simpler" game (IMO) than Dragonrealms, which was its sequel, but about equally popular.
Main site: http://www.play.net/gs4/
Class descriptions: http://www.play.net/gs4/info/professions/
Dragonrealms is a sequel to Gemstone IV, originally released in 1996. Its exp-system is skill-based. Features some unusual classes (Moon Mage: cast spells that vary in power based on the current phases of the planet's 3 moons, Empaths: as above, but they take a vow to never injure any living creature except the undead, Necromancer: you must live your existence in secret, if another player ever figures out you are a Necro and you are inside town they can attack you or have you arrested by authorities). Like GS4, the game world is HUGE (and unlike most huge worlds, what's out there is actually interesting, too.)
Main site: http://www.play.net/dr/
Profession/Class descriptions: http://www.play.net/dr/info/guilds/guilds.asp
Races: http://www.play.net/dr/info/races/races.asp
Combat: http://www.play.net/dr/info/combat.asp -
Quote:Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
*shrugs* I'd made the decision to never do any new business with NCSoft again some time ago. Even if they reversed their decision tomorrow, that position wouldn't change.
That being said, calling for a boycot is shallow. People will move on with their lives, friends will meet again elsewhere, players will play new games. I neither like nor agree with the decision or its delivery any more than anyone else, but it's done. Making it into a vindictive battle is a disservice to the memories I will take with me.
Shallow? No. Here's the basic fact:
Someone in that company knew full well they were going to do this, yet had the audacity to sell us a powerset expansion as little as one week before making the announcement. IMO that's illustrates total disregard for their own customers. They say it's "not in their long term interest" to continue the product. Interestingly, it was still in their interest to accept my money. I have no legal standing, obviously, and accept the full risk. But I will never purchase from this company again. It is not in my long term interest to support them. -
No crying here. A bit surprised, but not totally stunned.
The timing is weird for me though. I started playing CoH just after Hurricane Gustav, when I was staying at a friend's house because I didn't have power. I just found out about the closure while I am staying at a friends house due to not having power, because of Hurricane Isaac.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Quinch
Actually...
No. I'm not doing that at all.
I'm operating under several assumptions;
- CoH has been, and can still be made profitable
- People, no matter how many, emailing Valve will not make them buy the game. It will, however, make them notice and investigate the prospect if enough people contact them. With their attention, the acquisition will probably fail because there are a lot of factors that could completely invalidate the idea {which you would have probably noticed if you read the email more carefully}. Without it, it will definitely fail.
- Valve knows how to manage a business successfully. They have yet to fail, and they've consistently shown that they understand how much the loyalty of a playerbase can lift or sink a game.
If nothing else, what the demise of CoH may spur its systems into other games. I won't be leaving CoH to play another MMO, because there isn't an MMO anything like it.
It has crossed my mind that a CoH MUD would not be too bad an idea. They cost little to run these days. Not the same experience at all, but it's a free code base. If I had time for something like that again I might look into it. I am somewhat familiar with the Forest's Edge code base. The game would be likely to only attract a very small number of players (maybe 50-100) but if someone wants to try to preserve the Pocket D aspect of the game, that might be a good way to go, on a budget. -
I won't be boycotting, per se. I will be a bit more careful about where I sink my money in the future.
Aion/NCSoft can cry me a river about its cash shop not generating enough revenue though. NCSoft has demonstrated that they are willing to sell costume packs and powerset expansions with (apparent) knowledge that they plan to renege access to these things within a few months. I certainly wouldn't have spent as much as I did had I known they planned to cancel the game within 3 months. I already own Guild Wars 2, but it will be a long, long time before I purchase anything but the base game from this company again.
Long story short: my fault for being too trusting. But before they issue any more patronizing letters about this game not being in their long term interest, perhaps they should sit down and consider that further investment in a company that has total disregard for its own customers is not in my interest either. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Bru_Tal
Both NCsoft and Paragon Studios are incredibly proud of the success of City of Heroes, but unfortunately, the continued support of the franchise no longer fits within our long term goals for the company. All employees at Paragon Studios are affected by this decision, including the management team.
I don't want to sound excessively bitter, but it's unfortunate that accepting the several hundred dollars I dropped into the game in the past 6 months doesn't "fit within NCSoft's long term goals." My fault for putting trust in the company to provide longer term support for what it has sold me.
IMO a service cancelletation letter shouldn't read like a layoff email, like this one does. I consider this a lesson learned about dropping money on NCSoft games (I do own GW2 but after this won't be purchasing from their cash shop, since they've illustrated they are not willing to provide support for relatively recent purchases, and will cut off players like a boyfriend breaking up in a post it note.) -
Atlas Spark, for me.
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Quote:Originally Posted by JayboH
Wouldn't it encourage more soloing, the opposite of what we said we need?
The people who are trying to solo are mostly skipping these powersets anyway.
The inability to target yourself would be more reasonable if the powersets that are ally-only were generally better at providing team support. But they aren't. -
I think the issue here may be few of us can envision the kind of build you want to play, under the circumstances. Most of us do not even have a full grasp of how the powers actually work and couldn't help you even if we did know. You are likely to be on your own for a while, outside of guesses. Given what you have in your hands, you should be the one telling us how these powers should be slotted, not the reverse.
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Personally I think there is nothing specifically wrong with a mezz system that is on/off. That is how mezz typically works in RPGs (not all of them, but many). The reason for it is it makes it very easy to communicate how impaired the enemy is/you are.
So what is different about City of Heroes compared to other games? A few things:
Unlimited potions. We call them "inspirations," but they serve the same role. Our ability to access inspirations without a cooldown makes the game very hard to balance. A lot of people think unlimited potions in this game grants us power beyond what we'd get in another MMO; in actuality, what they do is make everything balanced around the idea that you should manage potions, which is why it's considered perfectly acceptable to have an end-boss that can kill some characters in one hit or mezz them to death. Should have brought the right potion!
Deadliness. City of Heroes is the only game I have ever played where getting mezzed shuts off your armor. In most MMOs, a mezz lowers your defense somewhat, but it almost never completely removes it like CoX does. This is related to the next item:
Melee immunity. The deadliness of mezz means that it's much too devestating to hit melee characters with it, so they are just made mostly immune. This puts the burden on only a couple of classes.
Duration. Enemy mezz lasts a very long time relative to other MMOs. Why are these durations considered okay? Because of unlimited potions.
You can't potion while mezzed without an anti-mezz potion. Here's where it comes full circle. While getting mezzed is certainly dangerous, what makes it extremely powerful for enemies is it blocks the use of any potion except a specific one, in a game based on infinite potions to get you through alive. Think about this for a second. A Scrapper can generally eat a green, purple, orange or whatever no matter what she is fighting. Not so anyone who is easily mezzed. If you could eat greens, purples, and oranges while mezzed, surviving it would be much easier. -
For my Rad/Fire I plan to prioritize it like this:
1) Healing
2) Endurance Mod (probably 1 slot)
3) Absorb
4) Damage
5) Accuracy
...with 1 and 2 being the main goals. I am unsure how effective the Absorb proc is right now for this power.
However, this power is really nice on beta even unslotted. I have never found its damage that useful personally, but the heal is really nice.
I'm also planning to probably drop Cardiac Alpha for (probably) Spiritual. The extra Recharge combined with crazysupernuke, with +Healing, +Stun (for Cosmic Burst), +ToHit Buff (need to look into this more), +Slow (for Hot Feet). My current build also has Burnout, so I can nuke-Burnout-nuke and (the idea is) Consume and Cauterize will carry me through it. -
Quote:Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Mind you, I'd still dearly love to see an entirely IO-based power set where all of the powers were blank and you customized every aspect of them. I just don't expect that anything like that is ever likely to happen.
That specific thing probably is doable IMO, as long as you were careful to control what the ATs capabilities were. But you'd have to be careful that the build couldn't jump from point Blaster to point Tanker (to use 2 examples) too easily.
Incidentally, a power selection could be invisioned as coming from an item you buy from a "power shop," and can never trade. If you ever want to do a mind screw on yourself, you can make similar comparisons:
- XP is actually Influence you can only spend in a single shop, which may or may not accept refunds, but always under its own rules
- Animation Time is a Hold players cast on themselves as a penalty for using a power
- Gear is just a tradeable power
- A powerset is usually just a branch in a complicated skill tree that has no backward respec path
- A class is one step above a powerset in said tree
- Both of the above statements are generally true even if the player must play the game for a while before selecting the powerset or class. If they can't respec out of it, it probably meets the definition of "class."
It may also be worth mentioning that my statement earlier about respecs presenting a problem for classless systems was just one example. There are a few other significant hurdles to consider as well. One of the most daunting is that in an MMO, you are likely to constantly be adding new powers. In a game like CoX, that can be challenging as it stands. Slipping new powers into a classless system is a lot more perilious IMO. -
Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, but throw Bio Blast (viruses, etc) onto the pile too.