Obitus
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Quote:Eh, ~10 max end (fully enhanced) versus a blanket ~50% discount on all powers for 90 seconds is by no means an easy comparison. The thing that's great about Conserve Power is that it has an inherent synergy with +recharge, because recharge tends to make you burn through end faster, and recharge also makes Conserve Power come back faster. And the faster you're burning through endurance, the more endurance Conserve Power saves.Originally Posted by Vitality
Think about it...
Conserve Power is good if you're using too much endurance. However, Superior Condition "could" remove those problems with just the added End and end/sec.
Then, if you have no endurance problems while running through your attack chain...the only other problem would be endurance sapping...which the performance shifter proc "could" potentially eliminate.
On the other hand, Superior Conditioning only has synergy with other recovery bonuses; max end bonuses multiply your cumulative recovery, so if your recovery is low to begin with, SP will do less. If your recovery is high to begin with, SP will do more. Ordinarily, that sort of accelerating benefit from stacking is very powerful in games like this one, but endurance is a bit of a special case, because after a certain point having more of it just doesn't do you any good. To put it another way: as SP approaches its maximum numerical benefit, SP ironically also becomes less and less important.
Having another passive in which to slot Performance Shifter is nice; don't get me wrong -- and if you're really gasping for more endurance, Superior Conditioning isn't a bad power to take. But there are very few builds that can't get by with Conserve Power and Physical Perfection (available in the same Ancillary Pool to the relevant ATs). Generally, because the attack powers in that pool suck, you're better off using alternate means (if possible) to make your endurance situation manageable, so you can pick one of the other Ancillary/Patron pools (powers like Fireball, Ball Lightning+Electric Fences, Shadow Meld, and Gloom come to mind). -
Quote:Serenity, on the other hand, does.Originally Posted by Chyll
For the record, Gattaca (excellent movie) has nothing to do with having gotten rid of evil.
Pretty much this.Quote:Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Fine. Then the answers is obviously yes. And there can be no objections, because anything it cured would be. by definition of this discussion, evil. And anything it didn't cure would be 'non-evil'. To make double sure, the people who start this whole thing would do it to themselves first. That way, if doing it to everyone else was evil, then they wouldn't want to do it. If they still wanted to do it, it is impossible for it to be evil. -
Quote:Probably Kinetics.Originally Posted by tyxavier
I'm curious to know which powerset combos can dish out the most -damage debuff. Does enemy rank or level reduce the effects of -damage?
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Quote:Unless it's an excuse to kill Statesman. Then it's all good.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I've said it before, though - just because something happened in comic books doesn't necessarily make it a good thing to bring here. Comic books have their good bits and their bad bits, and I honestly see no reason to specifically and intentionally bring the bad bits when they can be avoided.
And, yeah, I've had a problem with killing a signature character as a publicity stunt. To me, it demonstrates a profound disrespect for canon characters, to be reduced down to marketing ploys. There are better ways to make an emotionally engaging story.
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Quote:Would premiums really prefer it if that $35 purchase (or the subscription fee) were perceived as a license to print in-game money? That's the thing; you're doing a decent job of describing a potential flaw in the design (lack of incentive for premiums to buy the signature arcs ala carte), but you're glossing over the consequences of the alternative.Originally Posted by Commander
Now the SSA's were never in beta so no one was able to test them. No one was able to see that something else that was purchasable from the store cut you off from a top-level reward after playing it twice. Not only playing the same arc twice, but playing 2 of any SSA's within the same WEEK.
I said I hate to complain because I really do. But no one else is catching on that the game, being free to play, is not doing anything to hold F2P or premiums to WANT to buy the SSA's every month. What's the point? The game relies on their $5 purchases, but if they only need to buy SSA1 what's the point in buying SSA2-7 if they aren't getting the rewards for it. Doing SSA1 two times per week is the same as doing SSA2-7 since they run off the same reward table.
I suspect that the intent is to encourage premiums to subscribe and therefore not have to pay for each new SSA separately. For subscribers, SSA access is an ancillary perk rather than an end in itself. The rewards system, if you have access to all arcs and you're heavily alt-inclined, is (or will be) potentially very lucrative for anyone who has the patience to explore it to its full potential -- but it's not so lucrative on a per-character basis that the arcs are must-haves, mechanically speaking.
The way it's set up now, a premium can throw $5 at one arc and have access to all of the weekly rewards (which is fitting, because Premiums have fewer character slots). The Preemie loses out on the full storyline but within the character-slot limits that already inherently constrain Preemie players, he's not losing out on any of the SSA rewards. That's the fairest option, in my book; telling Preemies that they'd have seven times more reward if they spend seven times more money isn't the way to entice new customers to stick with your game; quite the opposite, in fact. -
Quote:Heh, yeah. Then again, Lore pets.Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Won't you be embarrased when the coming storm turns out to be endless waves of Pylons teleporting in from space!
There are many ways to skin a cat, it's true. Electric Armor and WP both crave DEF bonuses more than EA, though, even if they don't technically need them -- which means that both of them are more likely to lean on Spiritual Alpha.Quote:I agree on the ways that EA allows you to build for Musculature & Assault, but its not the only set that can do this.
Ela can also do this, along with better Rech to build off of as well as a damage aura which will be a DPS improvement that will often outdo straight +damage slotting.
WP can also run Musc if you can build for enough rech & SR can also squeeze in a sizeable chunk of +Damage bonuses from IOs (Iggy posted a build with over +40% global damage bonuses).
I like EA's overall package though.
EA is in kind of an odd space in that sense. On paper, soft-capped EA is less survivable than a high-DEF Will or Elec Armor Scrapper, so arguably it's not an advantage that EA soft caps easier. After all, DEF is basically EA's schtick. But since defensive IO bonuses are so one-dimensional, there isn't much point in pursuing anything besides DEF, and so EA has a ... shall we say clearer conscience about putting a relatively small investment into defensive bonuses.
Willpower is especially ornery; whenever I pull up a Willpower build I always find myself urged to stack just a little more DEF here or there. The defensive possibilities are just too attractive to pass up in favor of more offense.
That's how I look at it, anyway. SR has a lot of freedom for the same reason, but it's got a serious disadvantage with respect to endurance management. I suspect Combat would've had, at the very least, a harder time squeezing all of those procs into a Will or Electric Armor build. Anyway, my point was less about EA as a set and more about the slant of the overall build. You can make a case that EA isn't an explicitly "offensive" secondary, but you'll have a hard time arguing that that particular EA build doesn't have an unusually high slant towards offense. -
Quote:Heck, as it is the SSA rewards' system is pretty exploitable for anyone who has a lot of alts. Even ignoring the recurring, weekly rewards' table, just running through all seven arcs once on each character nets you 3.5 Luck of the Gambler procs. Multiply that by 20 characters and you have a nice lump sum for very little time spent.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
If that's how you want to play, you're welcome to do so. Meanwhile those of us who don't care about the maximum reward/time ratio are free to run any one of seven arcs for the same reward, depending on which one we feel like at the time. I'd call that a major advancement for a game that historically railroaded players nearly as badly as contemporaneous MMOs did. If nothing else, run the quickest one for the hero merit and then run the longest one for the 4x merit rewards. Presto, even by your own standard there's value in longer ones.
(It still probably wouldn't be as efficient as marketeering or farming, but we're looking at a pretty spectacular consolation prize for people who aren't market/AE-inclined.)
Are they even selling LoTGs on the Paragon Market? Last I looked it was strictly Uncommon (yellow) sets. Don't get me wrong; having a set of Thunderstrike or Crushing Impact that scales with your level is nice, but it seems (seemed) to me that the devs are wary of having their game labeled as pay-to-win.Quote:Have they? How big of a drop did you predict in the average value of lotgs? How big of a drop have you actually seen? -
Quote:EnduranceOriginally Posted by Nihilii
There might be something I'm missing, but you can attack just as much during Rage crashes, you'll do 1 damage but procs and reactive still have the same chance to go off and to do the same damage.
That build is end-sustainable running a single-target chain for a good few minutes, but only if I stop attacking during Rage crashes. (My theory when designing the build was that I could just use Taunt during those down periods.)
I was just rambling; probably shouldn't have mentioned it because I was spamming Jab during the breaks in Rage during that run anyway. Jab-spam is probably pretty close in terms of average attack speed to my normal chain.
Yeah, shouldn't be too difficult. I'll mess around with it on my Dom later.Quote:I remember reading someone saying the DoT had a chance to go off but didn't stop the dot if it failed ; as in, the first tic could go off, the second tic could not happen, and then the third tic could go off again. Never bothered to test it myself, but it should be easy enough with the tier 1. -
Quote:I haven't run any numbers to compare Fire Doms with Fire Blasters, but it is worth noting that Fire Blast is better on Doms at the high end (shorter activation + more damage), and Embrace of Fire is potentially as good as or better than Build Up + Aim (in terms of over-time benefit, since you have half as much wasted cast time) at sufficient levels of recharge.Originally Posted by Giant2005
I don't know how that is possible. The Fire/Fire Dom doesn't get any Debuffs to help it's DPS, all it has are Blaster attacks with a lower damage modifier and a lower damage cap.
Doms do get Sleet as an epic power however but I don't think that will be enough to make the difference. If they are going to do more damage, it has to be due to a combination of Sleet and Fire Imps (even then, being at the damage cap would change that back in favour of the Blaster) but if pets are within the realm of the question, then it is completely irrelevant because nothing can even approach what a Crab is capable of.
Sleet is also a pretty big deal; the more each build sells out to increase damage, the more important that -RES becomes.
I'm not sure the Dominator would win, mind, but at the extreme high end I think it'd be darn close. -
Quote:Only problem with that chain is that Rib Cracker's debuff isn't up full-time. This set seems designed to give attack-chain designers fits.Originally Posted by Combat
Now that we are caught up, let's change chains. Let's see what it would look like if we didn't use SC, and go RC-HB-SB-CU-SB. I am changing SB. Before, it had crushing impact and the -res proc. Now I am adding 2 regular procs, switching the purple proc to it, and the +dam percentage after musculature is 125.31%. Heavy blow also is changed, adding a regular proc. This brings total proc damage to 231.89, which translates to 27.44 dam/sec. Our total damages before anything change to
If it seems like I'm nitpicking, please accept my apology; I don't mean it that way. I just don't have the time or the energy right now to go through the math point-by-point (my spreadsheet's on a different computer, too).Quote:This requires CU to recharge before RC-SB-HB-RC finishes activating, or in a total of 6.072, which would require 311% recharge, which this build has (if SD can calculate with max targets in AAO, EA can do the same with max in Entropic Aura). This is unreasonable for non-EAs unless we add in 30% for time lord and base buffs, so this chain probably isn't going to used by everyone (and the end drain wouldn't be sustainable with energize constant and energy drain for rare equations). However, this is still nearly 300 DPS on a set that isn't made for it, which almost certainly would be over 300 with CR. If nothing else, this build would activate CR every 24 seconds and gain a +dam bonus of 27.08%, which would give 316.92 DPS.
That said, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things here:
First, scaling +recharge is qualitatively and fundamentally different from +damage. A Shield Scrapper who herds 10 foes up to get full benefit out of Against All Odds can treat that extra +damage as pure bonus. An EA Scrapper certainly can craft his attack chain around the +recharge from a fully saturated Entropic Aura -- and happily, Street Justice is forgiving enough that he wouldn't be totally screwed otherwise -- but for what it's worth, I'd find it deathlessly annoying to have to modify my attack chain not just to account for normal situational quirks, but also based on the magnitude of my Entropic Aura buff.
Second, I think maybe you're underselling EA as an offensive-slanted Scrapper Secondary. It ain't as obviously offensive as Fiery Aura or Shield, but you made a very compelling case earlier in the thread that EA is unusually well-suited to allow the player to pursue supplemental offensive bonuses (native endurance management, native +recharge, easy to soft-cap, native healing/regen bonuses). The build we've been discussing, for example -- the one with Assault and Musculature Core and more procs of various shapes and sizes than you can shake a stick at -- seems to me to be about as offensive a Scrapper build as you're gonna find short of rolling */FA.
Nevermind that that such a build has to invest more powers and slots in attacks than is probably typical for high-end Scrapper builds. That's the genius, and the frustration, of Street Justice: (almost) all of its attacks serve a useful purpose, apart from, and sometimes even in defiance of, their DPA. -
Quote:Fair enough. Ordinarily I wouldn't have paid his post any mind, but I could swear that's like the third post I've seen from Claws in a similar vein in the last coupla days. Whatever his intentions, on second thought perhaps I should thank Claws, because he stumbled into probably the best summary of my reservations about Combat's glowing reviews of Street Justice's single-target damage.Originally Posted by Werner
I think he's just joking around. I'm pretty sure Claws isn't one of those "you math guys are playing the game wrong!" people.
"My build planning consists of: Build for survival, then hit things until they die."
That's the approach most people are likely to take, even most people who spend way too much time discussing on-paper DPS comparisons, because at the end of the day the game really isn't about soloing Pylons.
And though Combat is right that there comes a point after which -RES conquers all, that point isn't necessarily easy or even desirable to achieve. Street Justice seems to be a very well-designed set with a good mix of burst damage, albeit small AoE attacks, and secondary effects, but it doesn't appear to do as much single-target damage, before you consider -RES, as the sets to which it's most likely to be compared (MA and DM for Scrappers, Super Strength for Brutes/Tankers).
Even if you do consider the -RES that's native to Street Justice (that is, Rib Cracker's debuff), the set doesn't appear to outperform its likeliest analogues by any noticeable margin. It isn't until you reach outside of the set and go to some pretty extreme lengths to boost damage that the -RES starts to pull ahead significantly.
By the same token, my INV/SS Tanker can put out similar over-time DPS numbers to my MA Scrapper by combining Rage+Bruising (Tankers' innate 20% RES debuff), and given the Tanker's other advantages, there's a case to be made that his is the better build overall, but it's hard to argue that the Tanker is exactly equivalent in terms of single-target offense.
Combat makes a good case for the extreme high-end DPS build; I just think it's a little early, and maybe even a little misleading, to proclaim Street Justice the champ. -
Quote:Seriously? Why even reply? Why even read the thread? Or, here's an interesting angle: if discussing a video game is so silly, then why do you have nearly 7,800 posts?Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
My brain hurts now.
This thread contains WAY more math than I wanted to read this morning. I'm sure if I read all of it I would understand most of it, but I don't really want to think that hard about the damage output of a power set in a video game.
My build planning consists of: Build for survival, then hit things until they die.
It goes without saying that what we're discussing is trivial. No one's holding a gun to your head, though.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting your meaning here, but it sure seems like you're taking a gratuitous shot -- and not a terribly effective one either, given the context. -
Quote:Yeah, wasn't sure if that extra 0.05 tick per second was just wonkiness of some kind. In retrospect the Tanker probably wasn't the best option because he has relatively slow attacks and because I basically have to stop and attack very little for ten seconds every time Rage crashes.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, after talking it over with Arbiter Hawk, I believe Synapse and I were both wrong in how this effect works. There is new tech in the Interface DoT specifically that I did not take into account, and the net result of all of that is that apparently the DoT can stack up to eight times total. That's eight times total from all players that possess it, no matter the form of the DoT. Meaning, if I slot core and another player slots radial, we have different chances to proc the Dot. But we have the same DoT, and we're combined limited to eight stacks on a single target. If the entire team was interface slotted, the entire team would be limited to eight simultaneous DoTs combined from all reactive sources.
The fact we don't see very many ticking at one time in testing is because we were all assuming we'd see a 10 second DoT, so there's plenty of time to stack up the DoT in 10 seconds. But because its only 4.3 seconds long, its actually not easy to consistently get more than 2 DoTs running. You're seeing slightly more than two, because you're probably getting between two and three DoTs to fire within that 4.3 second window.
What's more, I'm not quite sure yet if the DoT will actually be a 75% chance to run a full DoT. Thinking about it, its possible that we aren't getting a 75% chance to *have* a DoT, we might be getting a DoT with a 75% chance to proc *each tick* of the damage. I'm in the process of engineering some test to try to confirm all of this, and I'll post when I have more information.
I remember there being some discussion when Reactive first came out about whether each successive tick of the DoT has a chance to fail (a la Inferno or whatever), and my (foggy) memory is that that idea was shot down shortly after Beta. Things change, though, and god knows I've been wrong before. Will have to do some more messing around later.
Anyway, thanks. Appreciate the clarification. -
Quote:(1.07 / 0.132) = 8.1, rounded up to 9. 9+1 = 10. 10*0.132 = 1.32 seconds.Originally Posted by Combat
It is possible that my equation for arcanatime is wrong. That would explain the time discrepancy. I am using ROUNDUP((activation/.132)+1)*.132 and I am getting
Heavy Blow 1.07->1.20
Rib Cracker 1.33->1.46
Shin Breaker 1.33->1.46
Crushing Uppercut 2.17->2.3
Sweeping Cross 1.67->1.80
If you repeat that process for the rest of the attacks, you end up with 1.584 for Rib Cracker and Shin Breaker, 2.376 for Crushing Uppercut, and 1.848 for Sweeping Cross. You'll find that Mids' gives those same numbers if you turn on Arcanatime in options; Mids' has been known to be wrong, but AFAIK they ironed out the glitches in their A-time conversion some time ago.
I have no reason to believe that it isn't. My assumption was that the combo bonus is Crushing Uppercut's T9 'reward,' in lieu of the usual 15% crit rate (and for lack of a better term). I could be wrong about that, though.Quote:Are we sure CU is a 10% crit rate?
Ok, adding the 17.5% extra +damage puts my pre-combo, pre-proc, and pre-crit numbers at:Quote:If I artificially change my time to be 11.88 seconds, then I get 233 DPS for the musculature chain (177 before -res), the discrepancy coming from the tohit calculations for the combo points. Oh, and if I didn't make it clear, the build has 17.5% +damage from assault and the ranged purple set, which also changes the numbers you had. I'm getting a base DPS of 161 before combo, before procs.
- Heavy Blow - 72.57*(1+1.445) = 177.4 damage
- Sweeping Cross - 93.84*(1+1.555) = 239.76 damage
- Rib Cracker - 82.58*(1+1.445) = 201.9 damage
- Shin Breaker - 102.6*(1+1.495) = 255.987 damage
- Crushing Uppercut - 198.9*(1+1.555) = 508.19 damage
Rib-Shin-Heavy-Crushing-Rib-Shin-Sweeping gives us a total damage of 1841.12 over 11.88 seconds, or 154.98 DPS. Crits give us 1.1*154.98 = 170.4 DPS.
Combo damage is (0.25*508.19)+(0.12*239.76) = 155.8, or 13.1 DPS extra. Total DPS jumps to 183.5.
Proc damage is the same as before, accounting for an extra 17.9 DPS, bringing our total to 201.4 DPS. Reactive DoT adds 14, bringing us up to 216.4 DPS. Add the -RES, and we're at 216.4 * 1.207 = 261 DPS.
Looks like we're at least on the same page, now.
Yeah, it's a good number considering the secondary, but you've also gone to extreme lengths to boost offense otherwise, including the purchase of a PvP proc that accounts for less than 4% in over-time RES debuff. Also, Achilles' Heel doesn't stack from different sources, so in a group situation there's a decent chance your best RES proc won't apply.Quote:Adding everything, I get 263. That is still pretty amazing considering that EA adds virtually nothing to your offense except recharge and endurance efficiency.
With similar build criteria (musculature, assault, procs out the yin yang), it shouldn't be terribly difficult to draw up an attack chain that hits 250ish DPS with either MA or DM. And it'd cost fewer powers and slots. (DM and MA technically only need three attacks each to fill their ST chains.)
And, in the interim, I'd be doing more ST damage in regular content with those builds because I'm not waiting on a -RES proc to fire. It's certainly possible, even likely, that a build like yours will pull further ahead in over-time comparisons once we iron out this Reactive DoT issue; after all, more unenhanceable DoT damage favors -RES -- but I'm not seeing the massive advantage for Street Justice that you seem so enthusiastic about.
This is basically irrelevant. -RES multiplies all damage. You can argue that the combo system is special because it theoretically bypasses the damage cap (or perhaps more appropriately, the combo system effectively raises the damage cap by boosting the base), but that argument only works if you treat the bonus combo damage as a bonus.Quote:The main difference for street justice is the mechanics. The combo system is multiplicative, and multiplies by the amount of +damage and -res. This multiplicative affect means that street justice increases at a faster rate than other sets with affects, and do to the combo system street justice is affected more than most sets by recharge. Because street justice can get access to both -res procs, it can outperform its apparent DPA.
In other words, we've already baked the combo system's benefits into your chain. Arguing that the combo system's multiplicative effect is a bonus over and above the combo-enhanced damage numbers we've already taken as given is redundant. To the extent that Street Justice has a unique advantage, that advantage is -RES, and it's an extremely potent advantage as anyone who's played in a debuff-heavy team can attest.
That advantage is not necessarily an end in itself, though, and it seems pretty clear (at least to me) that Street Justice's initial single-target damage is lower to begin with. And when I say the damage is lower to begin with, I'm including the combo damage.
In an over-time analysis, Combat Readiness' 62.5% damage buff will help, but it will tend to be diluted by a Shield user's already copious +damage buffs.Quote:For instance, let's use your numbers, but switch to a shield user with 10 targets in AAO adding 81.3% +damage. I'm getting a total damage of 2535 before anything is changed, and a total of 336 after everything is done. This is analogous to modern DM/Shields, but it doesn't take into account CR. I believe that CR will boost it above other builds.
All the rest boils down to: Offensive secondary sets will yield higher numbers that will be modified by your -RES. From what I'm hearing, Fiery Embrace (like crits) ignores combo-bonus damage, though, which is a small thing, but worth mentioning. -
Quote:Ok, been meaning to come back and go through this step-by-step, not because I want to nitpick you, but because I want to understand exactly where you're coming from (and maybe we can catch each other's mistakes, if there are any).Originally Posted by Combat
I've changed the build I was using, adding in more damage procs and assault.
Total built +dam % is 17.5%. Chain is RC-SB-HB-CU-RC-SB-SC.
Enhancement percentage after musculature is:
RC- 127%, purple proc, glad proc and mako's bite proc for average of 64
SB- 132%, -res proc
HB- 127%, mako's bite proc for average of 14
CU- 138%, purple proc
SC- 138%, -res glad proc, purple proc
Total damage is 2350, total time is 10.92, average DPS without reactive or -res is 215. 229 with interface.
With that in mind, here's the base damage of the relevant Street Justice attacks (conveniently already typed up in a post in a different thread):
So using your enhancement numbers, we get:Quote:Originally Posted by Obitus
Street Justice:- Initial Strike - 52.55 damage, 1.056s cast, 3s recharge, 4.37 end, 49.7 DPA
- Heavy Blow - 72.57 damage, 1.32s cast, 5s recharge, 6.03 end, 54.9 DPA
- Sweeping Cross - 93.84 damage, 1.848s cast, 8s recharge, 8.53 end, 50.77 DPA
- Rib Cracker - 82.58 damage, 1.584s cast, 6s recharge, 6.86 end, 52.1 DPA
- Shin Breaker - 102.6 damage, 1.584s cast, 8s recharge, 11.86 end, 64.7 DPA
- Crushing Uppercut - 198.9 damage, 2.376s cast, 25s recharge, 14.35 end, 83.7 DPA
- Heavy Blow - 72.57*(1+1.27) = 164.73 damage, 124.7 DPA (before procs)
- Sweeping Cross - 93.84*(1+1.38) = 223.3 damage, 120.8 DPA (before procs, before combo points)
- Rib Cracker - 82.58*(1+1.27) = 187.45 damage, 118.3 DPA (same deal)
- Shin Breaker - 102.6*(1+1.32) = 238 damage, 150.25 DPA (same deal)
- Crushing Uppercut - 198.9*(1+1.38) = 473.38 damage, 199.23 DPA (before procs, combo points)
So before we get into the various modifers, your attack chain of Rib-Shin-Heavy-Crushing-Rib-Shin-Sweeping would give us 1712.31 damage, over 11.88 seconds, for a DPS of 144.13.
(Already seeing a time discrepancy.)
With a 10% crit rate, our DPS jumps to 144.13*1.1 = 158.543
We calculate crits before we get to the rest because crits ignore proc and bonus combo damage. In your chain, we're looking at Crushing Uppercut at combo level 3, and Sweeping Cross at combo level 2. Combo level 3 represents a 25% boost to the base damage of Crushing Uppercut, and combo level 2 represents a 12% boost to the base damage of Sweeping Cross. Each power is only used once in your attack string.
Our total combo-point damage can therefore be estimated at (473.38*0.25)+(223.3*0.12) = 145.141 damage. Over the course of 11.88 seconds, that works out to an extra ~12.2 DPS, bringing our total up to 158.543+12.2 = 170.7 DPS.
Now, you're also firing ... let's see:
- one purple proc @ ~35.3 average damage, and two regular damage procs @ 14.35 average damage each in Rib Cracker, which you use twice in your attack string (total damage over chain = 128)
- one regular damage proc @ 14.35 average damage in Heavy Blow, which you use once in your attack string (total damage over chain = 14.35)
- one purple proc @ ~35.3 average damage in Crushing Uppercut, which you use once in your attack string (total damage over chain = 35.3)
- one purple proc @ ~35.3 average damage in Sweeping Cross, which you use once in your attack string (total damage over chain = 35.3)
Total proc damage: 128 + 14.35 + 35.3 + 35.3 = 212.95. Over the course of 11.88 seconds, that works out to an extra ~17.9 DPS, bringing our total up to 188.6 DPS.
Those are the easy parts. The hard parts are estimating the contribution of the Reactive DoT and the contribution of your average -RES debuff (to say nothing of Combat Readiness). On the subject of the Reactive DoT, I have some doubt now that my earlier information was correct.
For the sake of argument though, and in an effort to maintain the context within which you wrote out your calcs, let's say the Reactive DoT adds the same 14 DPS. If so, our total jumps to 188.6+14 = 202.6 DPS.
For -RES, you're looking at basically 7.5% from Rib Cracker (for simplicity's sake), plus another 3.8% from Reactive Interface, plus ...
Achilles Heel and Fury of the Gladiator: Using A-Ville's fence-posting method, we get an average uptime on Achilles' Heel of 10 / ((11.88/2)*4+10) seconds = 29.6%, for an average -RES of 5.92%. Your uptime on FoG is 10 / (11.88*4+10) = 17.4%, for an average -RES of 3.48%.
Average -RES, total: 7.5+3.8+5.92+3.48 = 20.7%
202.6 DPS * 1.207 RES modifier = 244.5 DPS, ignoring the 5% miss rate.
All of those probably messy calcs out of the way:
I think these ToHit calcs are a little too involved, and not just because they make my head hurt. Technically, if you miss one of your -RES debuff powers it will also lower the damage of the rest of your chain for a given period. Technically, if Crushing Uppercut misses, then Sweeping Cross jumps up to Combo level 3. Etc.Quote:Originally Posted by Combat
Y
The chance for 1 builder to miss is .05*4, or .2. I'll break that into a 15% (that is a simplification for my sake) chance of CU having a base damage of 242.6 instead of 268.8, plus a 5% chance of SC having a base damage of 103.2 instead of 107.9. However, CU also has a chance for multiple attacks missing, so it also has a 5% chance for a base damage of 228.8 and a 1.25% chance of a base damage of 218.8. I subtract these chances to find the average base damage of CU, which it turns out is 244.25. Using this as our new base, we get a total chain damage of 2048, 216 DPS, 290 after -res.
(And apparently, we don't know exactly how Reactive Interface's DoT works, for that matter.)
In other words, I don't think these calculations should be regarded as an exact predictor of in-game performance. It's certainly worth noting that Street Justice has a slight disadvantage with respect to missing, but it's not worth tying yourself up in knots to figure out exactly what that relatively small disadvantage amounts to.
YMMV, but for my money, the use of these attack-chain calcs is to compare sets' DPS capabilities. And on that note, I haven't yet seen anything to convince me that Street Justice is the king. If you go all out, you can get some pretty great numbers, but those numbers aren't (so far, that I've seen) clearly superior to DM's or MA's. As always, though, it's possible I've missed something. -
Ok, more on the Reactive thing.
I logged a Pylon run with my Tanker (who has Reactive Total Radial, the T3 DoT proc). In 771 seconds (from 5:00:53 to 5:13:44) of combat, I ended up with:
- 427 successful attacks
- 1588 Reactive DoT ticks
That gives me 0.51 successful attacks per second, and 2.05 DoT ticks per second (or about 0.41 procs per second). Hard to say anything definitive (or maybe I'm just not equipped to say anything definitive) about how the DoT stacking limit works, but it's pretty clear that the Reactive DoT is allowed to stack more than twice per 10 seconds.
It could still be limited to two DoTs per 4.3 seconds (or whatever the duration of the actual DoT is). But that would put the DoT's max ST DPS contribution at 31ish, up from 13.39.
If anyone's interested, the log is posted here. -
Quote:The real question is, "Does she coach defense, too?"Originally Posted by UberGuy
So, to try and wildly oversimplify what Arcanaville is saying, some of the defense/resistance treatment imbalance is due to an honest-to-goodness asymmetry in how they are implemented (despite there being some mathematical symmetry in what they do in limited comparisons), and some of it is due to what the devs have done with the tools the mechanical asymmetry offered them in the defense space.
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Quote:No, because that's not relevant to the point I was making. The idea is not to denigrate Spinning Strike's area; the idea is to explain that, even if it were a PBAoE, many of the people complaining now would probably still be unsatisfied.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Are you taking into account the part of that coverage that is occupied by YOU?
This isn't, in other words, just a matter of TAoE versus PBAoE. It's a matter of smaller-area TAoE versus customary PBAoE. And since I doubt that anyone presently complaining wants the power's damage nerfed, the area's unlikely to be negotiable. -
Quote:Seems the DoT itself only lasts about four seconds. The DoT flag or whatever you'd call it lasts for 10.3 seconds on the target. Or at least that's how I interpret the entries in the Mids' database combined with my own personal experience using Reactive (the dot certainly finishes a lot sooner than 10 seconds). Unfortunately, the info in-game seems to want to give you a useless description of the auto-power on the player that grants the DoT. I'm sure there's a way to get at the info for the power that affects the target, but I don't know whereOriginally Posted by Arcanaville
It depends on whether the things you are typically shooting at will live, on average, at least ten seconds or more. If they don't, some of the DoT isn't realized. Against a pylon, or an AV, or even a Boss, most of the DoTs you stack you'll get full value for. They will speed up the time to defeat. But in a typical mission with mostly minions and Lts, the resistance debuff might speed you up more. That's something these calculations don't really look at.
My guess is the DoT is almost always better than the res debuff, but that's more of a feeling informed by the numbers than a conclusion based on the numbers.
So it could be that you can't stack the DoT more than twice for 10.3 seconds, but the DoT itself appears well-suited for bursty situations (against low-HP targets, using AoE attacks, which are generally less spammable than single-target attacks). Then again, I'm counting way more than ten DoT ticks over a ten second period in my combat log, so maybe it is a max of two stacks over 4.3 seconds:
I'll have to mess around with it more; I was using Brawl and Dominate in that example just so I didn't kill the thing too quickly (and because my Fire attacks would add a DoT of their own that would add more spam), but there were gaps in my attack rotation. Maybe I should try adding unslotted Boxing.Code:10-10-2011 11:30:57 HIT Traditionalist Commander! Your Dominate power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 93.24. 10-10-2011 11:30:58 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:30:58 You Dominate Traditionalist Commander for 86.04 points of Psionic damage! 10-10-2011 11:30:58 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:30:58 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:30:58 Readying Brawl. 10-10-2011 11:30:58 You activated the Brawl power. 10-10-2011 11:30:58 HIT Traditionalist Commander! Your Brawl power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 53.70. 10-10-2011 11:30:59 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:30:59 You Brawl with Traditionalist Commander and deal 18.28 points of smashing damage! 10-10-2011 11:30:59 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:00 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:00 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:00 Brawl is recharged. 10-10-2011 11:31:00 You activated the Brawl power. 10-10-2011 11:31:00 Brawl missed! 10-10-2011 11:31:00 MISSED Traditionalist Commander!! Your Brawl power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 98.84. 10-10-2011 11:31:01 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:01 Dominate is recharged. 10-10-2011 11:31:01 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:01 You activated the Dominate power. 10-10-2011 11:31:01 HIT Traditionalist Commander! Your Dominate power was forced to hit by streakbreaker. 10-10-2011 11:31:02 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:02 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:02 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:02 You Dominate Traditionalist Commander for 86.04 points of Psionic damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:02 Brawl is recharged. 10-10-2011 11:31:03 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:03 You activated the Brawl power. 10-10-2011 11:31:03 HIT Traditionalist Commander! Your Brawl power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 18.25. 10-10-2011 11:31:03 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:03 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:03 You Brawl with Traditionalist Commander and deal 18.28 points of smashing damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:04 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:04 Brawl is still recharging. 10-10-2011 11:31:05 Brawl is recharged. 10-10-2011 11:31:05 You activated the Brawl power. 10-10-2011 11:31:05 HIT Traditionalist Commander! Your Brawl power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 94.83. 10-10-2011 11:31:05 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:05 Dominate is recharged. 10-10-2011 11:31:05 You Brawl with Traditionalist Commander and deal 18.28 points of smashing damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:06 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:06 You activated the Dominate power. 10-10-2011 11:31:06 HIT Traditionalist Commander! Your Dominate power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 91.85. 10-10-2011 11:31:06 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:06 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:07 Brawl is recharged. 10-10-2011 11:31:07 You Dominate Traditionalist Commander for 86.04 points of Psionic damage! 10-10-2011 11:31:07 You activated the Brawl power. 10-10-2011 11:31:07 HIT Traditionalist Commander! Your Brawl power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 83.40. 10-10-2011 11:31:07 Your Reactive Interface continues to burn for 14.85 points of fire damage!
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Quote:In terms of area, there's no numerical advantage to PBAoEs over TAoEs. There are possibly qualitative advantages one way or the other; in the case of Spinning Strike, I think the mobs' tendency to surround player characters plays against the power.Originally Posted by Zem
I've been playing it on a Stalker and even on teams, where you'd think with someone else getting the attention and having mobs clustering around them, I'd have an easy time sweeping herds of enemies. Still, I often find myself thinking, "You know, I'd have hit more of them with a PBAoE that time."
I think the "you don't take up space in the center" advantage isn't much of one. This is really only an advantage when the mobs are literally packed shoulder-to-shoulder in a tight ball. Any other time, the advantage of a PBAoE is you can put yourself exactly right where you want the sphere to be centered. With a TAoE you must pick someone to be the center so your choices are limited. If you have a few to your left and a few to your right, you can drop a PBAoE right between them and get them all. With a TAoE you will have to go right or left and miss some on the opposite side. Or wait and try to get them more clustered. But waiting means not using an available AoE when it is available. Means less effective.
That said, if you position yourself for best use of Sweeping Cross (a melee cone), then you'll be in perfect position to take advantage of Spinning Strike. In that sense, a TAoE is better than a PBAoE, because the latter requires you to have some of your targets behind you to take full advantage of the attack's area. The TAoE doesn't care where the mobs are in relation to you, as long as they're close enough to each other.
In short, Spinning Strike might be better, on its own merits, as a PBAoE, but as a TAoE it at least theoretically has a better synergy with Sweeping Cross.
Frankly I think part of the problem here is that people are subconsciously used to AoE attacks with larger areas. Even Dragon's Tail has a larger area than Spinning Strike (8' radius versus 6', which translates to a 78% advantage in terms of floor coverage). -
Quote:I'm not saying Hasten is necessary. I'm saying that if your reasoning for skipping Hasten is that you don't have enough power picks, then you could stand to skip an attack. If you want, of course.Originally Posted by Issen
Starved for power slots? Maybe. But I don't think Hasten is necessary on an Energy Aura Scrapper whose already going for heavy recharge and has Force-Feedbacks.
But then I don't often solo stuff, and a LOT of these builds I see look like things you'd solo on.
By all means, play what you like; god knows I've cursed Hasten's glowy hands' effect on more than one occasion, myself. This is a mechanical discussion, though: it's one thing to say that you don't want or need Hasten, or that you don't want to skip one of your seven available attack powers -- but it's a different matter to argue that taking all of your attacks and skipping Hasten is mechanically equivalent or superior to the alternative.
I just want people to understand their options. -
Quote:I've heard the same thing, and I'm inclined to believe it based on the source (Nihilii). Still, for the purpose of figuring out a build's damage output, we're more concerned about how the debuff should and probably soon will work.Originally Posted by mauk2
I thought I read somewhere that the resistance debuff portion in reactive was broken right now?
It's reasonable to assume that the Interface bugginess will be fixed at some point. If you wanna be cynical, you can even argue that the new business model will make any bug fixes to Incarnate powers more urgent; Incarnate content is, after all, one of a very few things left in the game that are VIP-exclusive.
Not sure exactly what you mean here. Are you saying that damage procs aren't affected by -RES debuffs on the target? Cause I thought -RES debuffs on the target were the only thing that could modify the damage of damage procs.Quote:Originally Posted by Combat
So that we do not count procs in our equation (as they aren't affected by -res), we take out the procs gives you 198 DPS times 1.27 which gives 268, or 2929 damage over 10.92 seconds. Adding in procs for 213 damage and you get 3107/10.92, giving you 288 damage per second. Finally, multiply by .95 for accuracy, and you get 274 DPS.
Eh, still not sure the numbers support the claim that StJ is insanely good at single-target DPS. Looking forward to hashing it out further later.Quote:The set is similar to DM if DM could slot 2 -res procs. It is insanely good at what it does, though it doesn't have a heal in the set like DM does (it does, however, debuff damage by 11%, which will work even on AVs/GMs). -
Quote:Using your previous chain, and given my assumptions (Reactive Radial Flawless, only two stacks of the Dot sustainable, ~20% in total RES debuffage), I estimate about 240 DPS for the StJ/EA Scrapper.Originally Posted by Combat
You are right, those numbers are highly preliminary. I hadn't taken the time to fully calculate -res uptime or reactive, which skewed the numbers up. However, I also forgot that sweeping cross can take a -res proc, which shifts the numbers slightly higher. I want to see a CU crit with all the -res affects going, should be glorious.
I'm going to take some time today and tomorrow to calculate more definitively. Street justice really doesn't do all that great DPS ordinarily, as it only has one amazing DPA attack in CU. Its builders are decent, but not great. However, add in -res and it turns into a monster. I am also doing a Shield/Stj or Fire/Stj tanker just because I can have an attack chain where every attack except CU can deal -res (IS-RC-SB-CU-RC-SB-SC), and have extra offense from the primary. Should be VERY high damage for a tank.
I'm expecting to come up with about 270ish all told, but adding in CR's average benefit may move average DPS over 300 for a scrapper. Tanker should get over 200, but I'm not certain how far over.
Back to excel!
(Subtract the ~42 DPS that Mids would give you for Reactive and your pre-RES-debuff DPS drops from 230 to 188. Add back about 14 DPS for the two sustainable DoTs, and you're at 202 DPS. 202 * 1.2 RES debuff = 242 DPS.)
240ish DPS is still awesome, but I'd say it's comfortably in the sane category for high-end Scrapper damage builds with high recharge and Musculature Alpha. Tossing in the average benefit of Combat Readiness will probably add quite a bit, but quantifying CR's over-time benefit is a bit of a headache; ideally you'd want to use CR just as CU is both recharged and at zero combo points. Satisfying those requirements in the midst of your attack chain with minimal delay is going to be close to impossible.
So Combat Readiness essentially becomes (for the purpose of averaging its over-time benefit in a DPS chain) a gimpy version of Build Up. In practice, against anything less than an Elite Boss, CR is obviously much more valuable than that. The more I play and analyze StJ, the more it seems the strength of the set seems to lie in situational burst damage. CR+CU as an opener makes a StJ Scrapper a true boss killer.
Don't have time to comment intelligently on your new attack chain or the possibilities with the PvP -RES proc in Sweeping Cross on a Tanker/Scrapper. My gut says the PvP -RES proc isn't worth it, though, except perhaps on the Fire Tanker -- because Sweeping Cross is only going to come up once in a fairly lengthy attack chain. The Fire Tanker can, of course, slot the proc in Burn, which is probably a better option than Sweeping Cross. -
Quote:I'm not sure there is a convenient answer to that question.Originally Posted by Crysys
What -IS- the optimal attack chain for StJ?
I'm certainly not a great expert, but it seems like the set's almost designed to confound the attack chain model, which could be a good thing. The over-abundance of proc options, the quirks of the combo system, the very short RES debuff in Rib Cracker (which is itself a fairly low-DPA attack), and the peculiarities of Combat Readiness all conspire to make over-time calcs difficult.
I don't know whether my impressions at this early stage are entirely accurate, and I definitely can't read the devs' minds, but given the set's unusual aesthetic appeal (given that people have been asking for this set for years, just on the basis of looks) it'd be kinda fitting if there were no clearly best attack chain for Street Justice. The devs seem to be saying, "use what you want." -
Quote:I suppose you're counting the full value of the Reactive DoT on each of those attacks? I was surprised to learn the other day that it only stacks twice.Originally Posted by Combat
In simple form, HB does 253.6 average damage, RC 276.3, SB 321.7, combo 3 CU 750.6 on the build that I am planning, with musculature t4 and t4 interface. Combo is SC-RB-HB-SC-RB-CU, which takes 9.3952 seconds counting arcanatime.
Also, if "SC" is Sweeping Cross, I'm not sure how you're getting three combo points on that Crushing Uppercut, because Sweeping Cross will clear your combo credit before you hit that Rib Cracker and Crushing Uppercut. (You'll have one combo point for CU with that chain.) I'm going to assume that SC is really SB, or Shin Breaker.
Rib Cracker is 7.5% -RES for 5 seconds. Interface is 10% at max stacks, but depending on which Reactive Alpha you take, you may have a very slim chance of averaging that much. (You're attacking ~0.64 times per second. If you took Reactive Radial Flawless, as I assume you must have given your damage numbers above, then on average you're going to have 0.64*0.25 = 0.16 Interface -RES debuff procs per second. Over the 10.3 second duration of the -RES proc debuff, that's 1.648 stacks you'll have on average, or about 4.12% -RES from Interface.)Quote:Total damage 2211.9, divided by time gives you 230 dps.
THAT'S NOT 300!
Of course it isn't. Between interface's -res, rib cracker, and the proc in SB I am averaging about 30% -res, (a little less, but not a ton less).
The proc in Shin Breaker ... eh. A 20% chance for a 10.25 second, 20% -RES debuff that doesn't self-stack. I'm not smart enough to have come up with my own way of dealing with that problem, so I'll just quote A-Ville:
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Now the two resistance debuffs. Achilles Heel is a 20% chance for 20% debuff for ten seconds. But you can't stack it. That means its going to have some downtime: after it fires once, nothing matters until it wears off. When it does, at that point you have to fire it to get it back. It'll take, from that moment, on average five firings to get it back (20%), but the first time you roll the dice will be just about as the previous one was wearing off. So it'll actually take on average four attack cycles to get it back (i.e. "fenceposting"). That's about 16 seconds. Its up for ten, and then on average going to be down for 16, more or less. That is 38.5% uptime. We can thus estimate the debuff as being 0.2 * 0.385 = 0.077, or about a 7.7% debuff continuously.
In your case, the calculation is a little more complicated, because you use the relevant attack (Shin Breaker) twice during your attack string. For simplicity's sake, I guess we can just average your Shin Breaker use to once per 9.3952/2 = 4.6976 seconds, which would put four attack "cycles" in your case at about 18.7 seconds. Your uptime is 10/28.7 = 38.4%, for a 6.9% average -RES debuff.
Long story short, I'm seeing no more than about 20% in sustainable -RES, total, for your attack chain.
And since Mids' adds about 67 damage to each attack for Reactive Radial Flawless' DoT effect, we're looking at a fairly large potential reduction in the calculated damage that all that -RES is supposed to multiply. The build should still do some monster DPS, but my eyebrows shot way up when you quoted over 300. They shot up a little higher when I realized you weren't even including Combat Readiness' average contribution in that number.
(Edit: BTW, I happen to agree with your reasoning about Energy Aura. I rolled an StJ/EA Scrapper myself. It's only because I've been tinkering with various StJ/EA builds lately that your numbers caught my attention. Street Justice is awesome in a lot of ways, but I haven't been bowled over by its on-paper DPS. If I'm wrong about that, then I'd be happy to hear it.)