New Dawn

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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.

[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.

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Aggro cap is 17, does your aura constantly always taunt 17?

No its impossible.

It cant do better than 10.

[/ QUOTE ]It can, as I've stated previously in this thread.

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it cant

maximillian you are wrong

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Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.

[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.

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Aggro cap is 17, does your aura constantly always taunt 17?

No its impossible.

It cant do better than 10.

Gauntlet is something that is in fact unreliable.

Taunt is something that is reliable.

A tanker with taunt and aura is the most potentially reliable tank there is.

I can probably steal aggro of any icetank without taunt with any of my squishie toons and get my self killed, the ones with taunt i struggle with, but i do try.

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I didn't think it needed the recharge ...

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Depends how many people on the team you want to keep Fort'ed. I've seen a few Empaths whine about getting Speed Boosts because it messes up their "Fort Cycle" [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. I'm guessing with Recharge slotted in it, they can keep X amount of team-mates perma-Fort'ed.

Not that I know a lot, I'm very much on the receiving end of things regarding Empathy. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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The fort cycle is quite important though but its upto the empath to keep track. If its not ready to rebuff the tank through not keeping track, a tank can have instant death the moment it runs out.

In teams you could play to get away with only ever having to fort the tank and even /sr scrappers could only need to play using their aoe def and mezz protection so all that recharge need never be used. Rather than try to perma fort 3 ppl late game its just the tank or anyone that suddenly ends up in over their head.

My problem with sb is i overshoot my run and find either a hole to fall down, edge to fall off or make the perception range of another group. Shame we cant have a walk mode.

Just because you have taunt it doesnt make you a better tanker than one without. All it does do is limit your tanking abilities. Differing choices of powersets do cause a varying requirement for taunt as maurdecay says, i think its a fair comment i have made. You are a tanker without taunt, you are a tanker the moment you step out with your one shield and one attack but you will have varying abilities regarding taunt control as to what your tanker is really capable of doing.

What if you faced a high enough Marauder that could one hit you with his knockout blow? Now think he is superstrength, think of all the superstrength attacks, you dont want to give him an opportunity to use that knockout blow and any of his other attacks in succession will wipe you and no defender can do a thing about it so make him use hurl. Its not as great a damaging attack as knockout blow and he has nothing to chain, taunt him from afar and make him have to hurl a rock at you every 8 seconds, in 8 seconds a heal can be recharged more easily and with hurl he can not one hit you. What else does he have? He has footstomp now your upclose and the scrappers are up close and some blapper is too "wham!" they are dead because he had reason to use it and then thats followed by the knockout blow that hits you and you are dead. But not if you taunted from afar. He would only have eyes for you (providing no scrapper taunts) and he wouldnt dream of using that footstomp because he cant get you with it. This is how i look at all AVs almost, they have the same powerssets but with additional signature moves. These powersets of theirs does more damage. Its not the amount of damage you need to do you worry about its the amount of damage they do and you have to make them do as less damage to anyone and yourself as a tanker. You dont always have to kite, you can change the way you deal with AVs with different defenders as they work differently and have varying effects, but taunt if needed is also there to limit what an AV is likely to do.

Dont tank standing in 30ft in front of the rest of the team against mynx either she has a good reason to use shockwave and if she is high enough who would that one hit? The only person keeping the team alive perhaps? AVs are special in resistance and regen and damage, i have never really found them that special in range and recharge.

With knowledge and cooperation you dont have to be a tanker who says we need a stonetank! we need a rad! we need a dark! its psionic get a dark armoured scrapper! you can try to find other ways to counter the problems and try to use the limitations of their powersets against them.

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I think we reached the bottom line in this issue weeks ago. Which was; no matter how good a tanker you are without taunt, you'll always be better with it, irrespective of what kind of tanker you are.

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I agree. Who dosent?

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At this specific point in my build I have to disagree. If I had taken Taunt then I would be left with 2 attacks until level 24. No matter what, I am suspicious of any AT who neglects either their primary or secondary powers.

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You took an attack (secondary power) instead of taunt (secondary power) when the tank is about taunt control more than anything else. If your /mace or solo alot than team tank then i can understand. My tanks couldnt solo for toffee till 20ish but nor could my empath ever. So the fact my tank needed a team was no boohoo. Add to that 2 attacks is all you need especially if you have a damaging aura.

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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.

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Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.

[/ QUOTE ]With my ice tank, I can move around with superspeed and keep aggro from 3 or 4 seperate groups (provided I don't hit aggro cap), with just CE. And that's with only one EndRdx in it, no taunt duration enhancers.

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As any tank i wouldnt want to have to flit around different groups and i dont like anyone dispersing groups that i herd. They are obviously lacking in the knowledge of why a tank maybe herding.

Maximum multihits = -fight duration, maximum debuffage = +survivability and -fight duration, tidy taunt control = +survivability and -fight duration and thus optimising the safety and creativity of others is why herding foes into a small group is a great idea and keeping them there. You get tper's that happily leave an aura and reappear a few yards away its not only much quicker to fire a taunt and taunt them back, you dont have to leave the main bulk of the herd and reherd mid battle. Taunt has a way better duration than what any aura does too. Id much rather not leave a debuff zone thats crucial to ensuring the survivability of not only my tank but the teams too and not allow any to become untaunted by my aura momentarily (they may then feel the debuff and start hitting on the debuffer). Even if foes even so much as get out a hold on a controller or defender it can change the tide of a battle as they are so influential. Even on my icetank despite having the best aura to have it doesnt consolidate aggro of more than 10 at a time, anything can happen in 2 seconds and id in a split group situation may have no choice but to keep the main bulk of a group herded to me 100% of the time and taunt anyothers.

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Mindset B:

LOL I am teh uber n1 c@n d34eat me !!!111!!!!!!!11!!. Im gonna punch these guys to oblivion. Look team, they cant hurt me. LOL you are so squishy, you are dying over there! LOL look at me Im still superhard. Weeee look at my punches. Im gonna kill this d00d who cant hurt me. LOL you guys are n00bs, you are getting debt. You should have chosen a tank, we never die. Im never gettind debt, no sirree!

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i see that alot, they are not tankers they are plankers but then so is anyone else not helping the tank.

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See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.

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Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.

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I have found this technique possible on an ice tank. With the slows, it is possible to do short hops (1-2 seconds) out of the mob, punch, and dart back in again. Its pretty limited, but it is an option. Its certainly no substitutr for the 5 target auto hit taunt, but I have occassionally have to use it when taunt is recharging.

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I agree this does work for an Ice tank, it works better if you have Hurdle and Combat Jumping and fast attacks.

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hmm, as long as you are fast enough (slotted swift/hurdle are playing with a kinetics [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ) then this works for almost any tank... even better if you have some AOEs to use too...

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there is no substitute for taunt, its autohit, costs nothing, takes no risks and you dont have to wait for upto 2 seconds for a taunt pulse tick over. Sure debuffs are aggro gainers but so is peoples damage. Your gauntlet can miss and your taunt pulse can be late added to the run over to anywhere.


Mindset D

You are out to tank at the lowest levels possible this is mind set D, there is no "you cant tank till lvl 24" because people of any tanking AT are in there giving it a go asap. Taunt and aura asap these are the true full on, hardcore, hearts completely in it, tankers of the game.

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Tank with other tanks as little as possible, learn how to tank from other tanks from the perspective of all your squishies and then in your knowledge of how all your ATs should interact go nuts at people who only level one toon at a time and are on their very first toon and know nothing about other players perspectives or requirements when they interact badly.

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So in a hypothetical situation where a newcomer to the game, who's playing their first character (a tank), is in the same team as you (also on a tank) you wouldn't give them any benefit of the doubt and would instead "go nuts" at them if they didn't meet your requirements for how a tank should be played?

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Actually no, i only go nuts at people late game where i am like "have you ever seen a tanker before?". After the mid twenties anyone could be settling in on a toon ok and have the general idea. I do find players who have every AT play that much better than those that dont. Did a TF with a guy who had taunt but no unyielding but was new and i liked him alot. I have done a tf with a tanker who had no aura and no taunt and it was his second tank and i died alot. As my Rad defender telling people to save the anchor to last in lower levels and them not listening or getting the idea is okay in the late levels after having to tell people 3 times i am going to quit the team. Im either going to get to play effectively or I am not playing.

I do think tanks should be point tank as much as possible to gain as much knowledge as possible, having someone doing the tanking for you all the time is being carried and should you double tank either one is point due to his/her level versus mobs and experience or you could be taking turns at herding. For a tanker to of never be point tank is to be someone whose made a toon for the sake of making a toon.

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-Why do blasters always want to open the fight? Be it a snipe or an AoE attack.
-Phantom Army can cause more destruction then it does good.
-Dimension Shift anybody? Why am I hitting nothing?
-A scrapper is not a tank.
-A runner with rad auras causes alot of aggro.
-Dispersion bubble can cause a bubbler to attrack much aggro.
-Please another Hurricane on my tightly packed group of enemies.
-And who oh who invented pulling?

Some general annoyances.

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When it comes to the blasters opening a fight if a tanker has no taunt then its acceptable, i find flyby tank maging that can be done by defenders the best for pulling and herding if the tank has no taunt but only then. Tanks with taunt can pull all of the time. All of the other stuff apart from the dispersion bubble power is welcome to the frustrations of playing a tank. The runner with rad aura is why many use a boss as an anchor as well as its normally a boss that gets killed last, people seeing the green aura around a foe is a signal to kill it first normally -

"i have been told to leave that one to last but no cant help it must kill....must kill it first!"


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And of course you can level one toon and understand the perspective of other ATs. Read the other AT forums here, discuss it in your SG forums if you have them, pay attention and learn when you team.

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Ok by that some people can but in my experience alot dont.

"Please dont use gale after i have just herded because it unherds mobs and can cause other people to get hit"

*Runs of herds next lot and the first move from the storm defender is GUESS!*

Some people are a waste of time talking to.

Tank with other tanks as little as possible, learn how to tank from other tanks from the perspective of all your squishies and then in your knowledge of how all your ATs should interact go nuts at people who only level one toon at a time and are on their very first toon and know nothing about other players perspectives or requirements when they interact badly. People are meant to be playing heroes they should be cooperating for maximum safety. This is my way.

Then on cov when you play a villain do the opposite, be the n00b, get people debt by your actions because you dont care as your not playing a hero. Your supposed to be evil and maybe your character is supposed to be the dumb minion. This is also my way.

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I cant see how one can say that Invun is the one set that shouldnt take taunt. Its the one set that must. What can a level 1-17 tank without taunt add to a team other than taking the alpha strike and then acting as a half mast scrapper? why not just get a scrapper?

[/ QUOTE ]Keep aggro with punchvoke. Maybe not the whole spawn, but the foes that would be most dangerous for the team.

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Until you run out of endurance..

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I recently joined a PuG, the tank was a Stone/Stone without Taunt, he relied upon mudpots to generate all of his agro and the only thing he managed to keep on him was 3 or 4 minions, 10-15 other foes went straight for the rest of the team - the outcome was a team wipeout - theres no way he could run to us and draw the agro away quick enough.

So no a Tank isn't a proper Tank without taunt, its a key skill required for a Tank to apply his trade.

[/ QUOTE ]I'd say that basing your conclusion on stone armor is kinda ignorant, since stone is the worst aggro holder.

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Stone is a bad recovery tanker early levels but its a great aggro holder if on a good team that works to help the stonetank keep aggro (if built to do it). It can become a good recovery tank in later levels though.
Icetanks get an aura early as well as kb and all the other mezz effect protections making it most definately the better "first" tank to have imo for recoveries and taunt control. Anyone new to coh and fancies making a new tank would definately get pointed in the direction of ice tanks by me.

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oh yes, lol, i remember i told you it was kind of hard to herd with only gauntlet [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I also remember saying that:
"anyone in front of me isnt falling back"

This week were doing synapse, I will have more tools at my disposal (like invincibility and a AoE attack) if youre looking for a opportunity to revaluation.

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I dont need to evaluate anyone except Maximillian on the pro "you dont need taunt camp":P. im kidding of course. I will check to see if i need synapse though. I have 7 heroes on union and i think i am basically looking at 1 citadel and 2 numinas and thats it. All 7 will be walking around with task force commander.

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id have you know i was in atlas park last night testing its recharge with various recharge buffs with more RV action in mind.

[/ QUOTE ]I wasn't talking about you because I wasn't in AP last night, but more about myself and Amducious that used to pop Rage, fully toggle up and use Unstoppable to amaze newbies a while back. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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aww okay does look pretty i admit and any excuse is a good excuse really.

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Doing the positron trial the other night we got 2 tanks, one with taunt, the other without. (at least at level 15 to which i was exemped down to) Both inv/nrg.
The tanker with taunt used his taunt as little as possible, because in his own words, using it killed him since he couldnt handle the aggro... or rather, his defences couldnt.

i'd say thats a tanker that tanks better without taunt.. because a dead tanker dont tank anything at all. a alive tanker at least keeps mobs busy.. even if its not as many as the tanker with taunt.

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i tanked positron with taunt and cavern trial, even my scrappers "scranked" it since ED and even in this issue. Less deaths involved. i couldnt possibly show up to a tf without taunt on any tank OR scrapper.

That tank was lovely he didnt build right because he is new. I was New Dawn on that TF and to be fair to all that really wasnt the most balanced team and it wasnt the most, well whoever that Rad was who turns around saying sorry i was doodling when the tanks ran in and saw no debuff zones I couldnt judge any tank or any powerset in such a team, it just wasnt full of vigilant/experienced players. If i was tanking for that team i would of had kittens at certain points but there is a lot less air about me than anyone i know.

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Doing the positron trial the other night we got 2 tanks, one with taunt, the other without. (at least at level 15 to which i was exemped down to) Both inv/nrg.
The tanker with taunt used his taunt as little as possible, because in his own words, using it killed him since he couldnt handle the aggro... or rather, his defences couldnt.

i'd say thats a tanker that tanks better without taunt.. because a dead tanker dont tank anything at all. a alive tanker at least keeps mobs busy.. even if its not as many as the tanker with taunt.

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On a team with 2 tanks taunt control can get messy and taunt pulls from any tanks aura you will need 1 appointed lead tank and no other tank should pass the lead tank and certainly should allow for herding, then the second tank after the herding process is complete can using taunt steal 5 from the aura, the tanks should never be as close to eachother whereby the tanks auras are cusping because the weaker tanker may be the better aggroer.

I dont like other tanks in team its not upto any debate with me its pretty much not happening as i may not like the use of the other tanks taunt control or how they go about missions, whatever they do i may have little say and end up dead.

Saying i wont use taunt is a bit feeble he can use it to take 5 atleast as long as his aura dont cusp with the other tanks he shouldnt take anymore for sure especially if he is at a distance where gauntlet cant add more to him.

A tanks there for taunt contol and the teams there to allow for that to be adequately established and to help keep the tanker alive.

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I don't feel like I need it unless I'm in a team of morons or in AP showing off to become as shiny as I can.

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id have you know i was in atlas park last night testing its recharge with various recharge buffs with more RV action in mind.

I have just been on test with the Shannon thats pyre mastery (as i have had 1 of each for ages) but for concept reasons i dont have it, my fire/fire will though where as my ice will be ice epic and my stone will be stone epic. but i have shannon on test with each epic to see if certain missions go better with any particular one. The epics change the way i need to tank and thats it, it does also mean that the way players interact with me is also important as also it should be if you only had a trick archer in the team and not the empath your used to.

I really wanted to make a build with weave on it because i havent tested it with defense scaleability (and you guys were preaching it as good even before defense scaleability) but the character copy tool is down apparently and so id need to wait to do that.

If i like weave of course i'll have it on live but for now i have had to make do trying it out with lucks.

In a mob where you get enough stacked holds to cripple unyielding and detoggle you your healthbar can drop to nothing in the time it takes to even pop a break free and thats with all the passive resists. Its nice of course to be constantly be kept as mezz protected as possible by a buff if possible.

my knockout blow has a duration of about 10 seconds on a +3 sapper, its about the same as char unslotted for holds but its more than enough to drop the sapper on my own. It is 2 acc, 1 end 3 hold, plus tohit buffed by foc acc that has 3 tohits in it and if i wanted i can use rage (but still i often dont) but even with all that accuracy i can still miss and thats when they are pigs, in melee range an instant bf or blue and possibly click unstoppable. Char can miss just as easily and then i would need knockout blow but what if i cant use it becausee i have no endurance, thats still unstoppable required for enough end recovery and untoggleable mezz protection, with conserve energy i can get attacks off on discounted endurance. Firetanks run about with stamina and consume, icetanks with stamina and energy absorption, stonetanks have resist to end drain and my invuln has conserve.

meet jack firenze mission, up lifts, first thing you see is malta waiting for you to open the glass door they are behind, the moment you open the door is 2 hercules class titans, a couple of tactical operatives an operation engineer and a sapper. As soon as you open the door the sapper if +3 as in my case could get you. In my case i have unstoppable and its perfectly soloable to me. When i last checked your build iirc you didnt have unstoppable so are you telling me that you chose rpd instead? i have a super reflex and even with her amount of defense there is no guarantee elude will even save me and so weave wouldnt be a good replacement either.

but yeah nobody plans on being detoggled but even in a carnie mission enough holds can be stacked upon you to detoggle unyielding, rare i know, but true.

invulns natural defense is dmg type related whilst weave and combat jump is positional so afaik they can either stack, partially stack or not stack at all in which in the latters case you could possibly do with some resists.

when i did run tough and weave and my invulns toggles i was also running foc acc and completely soloing 8 man team dreck maps at the time. I found that i was just as good to go without them and i was quicker at killing things due not so such a fast endurance loss and having to wait for conserve to recharge by the time my end was low. Versus praetorian robots i got -def'd and -end enough to say "is this weave actually on?" i turned it off and enjoyed feeling no different and had more endurance.

i have an unused respec ill test weave on the test server because i have due to defense scaleability already said i'll rethink it. Taunt is now moved from 4 - 10 and i can easily trade punch for kick (not boxing cos thatll be like jab twice) i can possibly add tough and weave and not lose resists like before but at the price of having a longer fight duration and less of my valued secondary effects. There is no way i am swapping haste and ss for cj and sj though as my dull pain only needs a rechg buff and its perma'd.

Id of got whirling mace before crowd control and a hold from the epic pool in there for sappers or i would be ss in and clobber but that aint to great without a flyby -fly attack on a hovering sapper. Im not saying my way is better im just saying.

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If you have a spread group, you need to keep moving to keep aggro. Aid self only takes about ½ a second stop to fire off, whereas hibernate takes longer to heal any useful amount.

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so basically compensating for having a [censored] team then? You really shouldn't have a spread group now should you? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]Spread group of mobs, that is, and it can happen even with good teams [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Im glad you said that, have you got taunt yet?

@Mesmer those slows in chilling embrace maybe a bit excessive to actual requirements id have 2 of them slots moved to taunt durations in taunt which if you need to kite and if having to suit well in varied team make ups you may need to do would go very well. But i am sure iirc you are going to pvp and if so those slows would be good in that case. 2 taunt durations makes a difference in preventing a squishy from being ganked in pvp still imo from experience.

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If i asked any tank if they could have 95% defense to all or 90% resistance to all which would it be i would be gobsmacked to hear "defense please" as defense doesnt come with the guarantees, defense doesnt save you from that one hitter that resistance might that would by time for a team member to put your health back

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Then again, if you can cap s/l res easily, any def piled on top of that is just going to get exponentially better and better, survival-wise. I'd rather ensure I'm still standing than have to apologise to the team for falling over, even if it does get me the last tough badge.

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In over 1100 hours of tanking on one tank alone i am a stupidly stupidly long way off from 6th debt badge it should in theory if i have the types of teams i am used to take over 2000 hours to get. I do have some good teams to thank, taunt, unstoppable:P and the fact i do not make some of the daft moves other tanks make.
I do realise some tankers do deliberately work hard for their debt badges why i dont know as to me its untankerlike. I wont be ripping my build apart for medic badges, getting confused or staying over night getting sapped by a sapper either. The half hour mezz badge is an embarressment to me.
I cant for the life of me see anything a pure build invuln cant do that a invuln with tough and weave can apart from spend a longer amount of time herding than is actually needed. If i am detoggled through a magnitude of holds my res to any but psi doesnt drop to 0.
Not having weave and tough on top of all primaries means i have more chance of having a shorter fight duration through being more damaging and can afford to have more tools useful for a tanker. Damage mitigation in the face of an AV is mainly achieved through my taunt, alot of the time even level to +2 i could probably tank the AV on my passives alone.

The idea of "needing" tough and weave to be still standing is a total complete myth imo and yes i have had them.

The only real good reason to take acrobatics is to say goodbye to knockbacks which would lower your dps, which could prove critical to you in pvp or pve. The hold protection is nice in pve but in pvp people will bypass it through magnitude or another form of mezz attack like sleep.
My blasters sleep grenade knocks acrobatics off of other blasters and then i can cryo freeze ray them. An /ice tank can use frozen aura to sleep blappers before using freezing touch to hold them.
Hover is the other power pool pick that helps with knockbacks but some people will prefer not to take it because its slow and useless once you have been -flied.
I love the secondary effects of this game they can change the tide of a battle.

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At least I think that's good news: all of you that were wondering why you sometimes needed to chomp four or five of these little guys now know why: it takes five of these guys to floor an even level boss in I6 (four in I7).

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no wonder defence looked bleak in comparison to resist versus an RV AV, oh wait it did to my eluded super reflex too. i also wonder if AVs have streakbreakers as well where after a period of misses an AV has to hit you.

a small sturdy is at 10% and a small luck is at 12.5% thats not much difference and could it be seen as balanced because at least resistance is guaranteed to work well with regen perhaps i dont know.

In RV i would chomp on 4 at a time (2 with fortitude), as well as taunt from within the pillbox shield which gives +def, +regen, +res to toxic and -tp and would mean that people wouldnt be able to be fighting in the line of fire of cones(standing in front of me) and instead would have to hit the AV from behind but often they could be kited. The first few days of this on test you could of coped with 3 of the AVs pretty well even unsupported until one day they either got some sort of a buff or the def in the shield got nerfed - it did go from easy to hard like that anyway. On live there are so many people and so many tanks where actual taunt control is a mystery (and i swear some tanks must just stand there and look pretty as my blaster gets turned on and shot at by the AVs) and unless the AVs are seriously -damd the pbaoes and aoes get everyone at once.

I've gone and made 2 builds and tried to get my head around it mathematically and decided I am happy with what Unthing has said, it all does my head in anyway, Shannon is pure build and i am happy with that, mileages will always vary.

Weave aint gonna get me my 5th tough badge so ill pass on it and no i wont be leaving my pooter on all night to get it:P

Finally i get to reply to this as for some reason the boards were saying i needed an account.

Defense is now scaleable granted, it doesnt play as big a part in my tanking as what effects i can get from the team do. Go pop 4 lucks every minute and face Scirroco with your invuln and see if you last 3 mins or go pop unstoppable for 3 mins and see if you last 3 mins. My money is on unstoppable. Mileages versus the accuracy of different AVs of different levels do vary even without team support.

If i asked any tank if they could have 95% defense to all or 90% resistance to all which would it be i would be gobsmacked to hear "defense please" as defense doesnt come with the guarantees, defense doesnt save you from that one hitter that resistance might that would by time for a team member to put your health back.

In arena you can buy 10% sturdy or 25% luck id rather fill up on lucks and not need any sturdys. Or is that a fair balance of 10% res or 25% luck on offer i wonder.

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Focussed Acc was too much of an enddrain

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Most people take conserve energy first then foc acc. Running foc acc and gaining well from it does take 5-6 slots and despite running it unless my endurance has been sapped i can keep an incredible amount of attack chains going. It will slightly differ for you as your attacks have faster action times so you would drop in endurance quicker, focused accuracy would magnify this. But your damage per endurance point is balanced with other sets so no worries.
Ive had Shannon on test with all the ancilliaries and they had all changed the way i tank but would not of changed how effective my tank can be. I would if i lacked a hold from my secondary would of taken anyone of the other epics. If i lacked a hold and a -fly it would probably of been stone epic.
Laser beam eyes and energy torrent neither fit within my concept for Shannon or serve a necessary purpose in tanking imo but would be okay for conceptual reasons only if i had them.

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Weave is good with Invincibility (assuming enough around you)

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QFT! and in the face of an AV you would have to be one sick tank to try it as more enemies have more chance of hitting you as well as the AV!
If you faced the AV relying on weave and 1 target buffing invincible (tough hide and unyielding cancel out) and you dont have Rel and Ren you should be begging for resistance (all this i say is dependant on tanking style and team support but i will take the resistance thankyou very much as AVs laugh at such poor defence).

The thing is you only get to use one attack of at a time so having 3 to chose from can be a bad thing unless -recharged but compensating for that can be a bad thing if your sapped or low on endurance. Not having powers like energy absorption, consume or rooted for res to end drain i have taken conserve energy.
I have basically 1 acc 1 end 3 dam and maybe another acc if a hold (duration dependent) or a rechg if an aoe, i have foc acc which reduces end to offer me more acc and +per but its when i want it its "not compulsory to run" or rage for tohit and +dam "if i want it", that again isnt always a good idea to always run and again conserve energy for unforeseen end losses.
Its a good idea to try to look at the "overall build" before deciding on optimal slotting. I am just stating the attack chain eats end the most.