but for those 4131 seconds of survivability will you have the endurance to run it [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
@ExtraGonk
Heh, should think so, with stamina and armours two-slotted for end reduction, and one in all attacks (which I've been doing since day 1) - I can't see it being a problem over what I've got going at the moment [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
If you're planning to take weave AND aid self, go for it. If you're planning to take weave OR aid self, I'd really recommend aid self.
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Sustainable damage numbers are saying to me here, that Weave will take my survivability from 2396 secs, to a rather beefier 4131 secs - curse the Tanker who told me Weave was not worth taking! That's only slightly shy of the increase in survivability granted by Aid Self, and Weave should boost the effectiveness of Aid Self, with (theoretically) slightly fewer interrupts. This also means that for overall survivability, Weave does more for an Inv tanker than Tough?
Is this a surprise to anyone bar me? Or is Weave the holy grail of tanking that somehow I missed, the shining jewel of the power pool toggles that noone told me about?
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Weave is not bad if you already have a lot of defence, Aid Self is good if you don't have a lot of healing.
I should point out my program doesn't produce figures in seconds though, assuming you are quoting my program? It is actually damage per second. For figures in excess of 2000 I would imagine you are looking at a very short duration fight or using Unstoppable?
One last thing, the average is weighted heavily towards smash/lethal as it is the most common damage type (and where Inv excels). But any spike tends to unbalance even a weighted average, so it is worth checking your element and energy values as well.
Aid Self & Weave, for sure, wouldn't pick weave over aid self
Eek, soz Dr Rock, looking at it without unstoppable now, 1885 DPS without weave, 3258 with. Hefty [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Aid Self I only really need to use much when there's a lot of elemental/energetic stuff flying about, but Weave should help a bit with that, as any dual-component attack (and there's a lot of them) would count the defence from weave in its ToHit roll?
Edit: The DPS is only the default settings, for comparing one build to another I have the same mob size and makeup and battle duration and so forth, by not changing anything...
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
Remember though, that weave is only melee/ranged defence, at least IIRC
Two outta three ain't bad [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
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Aid Self & Weave, for sure, wouldn't pick weave over aid self
Eek, soz Dr Rock, looking at it without unstoppable now, 1885 DPS without weave, 3258 with. Hefty [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Aid Self I only really need to use much when there's a lot of elemental/energetic stuff flying about, but Weave should help a bit with that, as any dual-component attack (and there's a lot of them) would count the defence from weave in its ToHit roll?
Edit: The DPS is only the default settings, for comparing one build to another I have the same mob size and makeup and battle duration and so forth, by not changing anything...
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Weave is good with Invincibility (assuming enough around you) as it takes you up around 40% defence, which against even level minions is being hit 1 in 10 times. Without Weave you are down around 30% which is being hit 1 in 5 times, twice the benefit. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Greater than 40% defence is the real magic zone. If you can push from 40% towards 45% and half your being hit rate again (using CJ for example), you can really crank up your survival chances.
Aid Self is good for the healing and the lack of downtime between fights. Healing and regen form the basis that resistancen and defence multiply up, so they are good to have.
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Remember though, that weave is only melee/ranged defence, at least IIRC
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In I6 all defence pool powers were changed to be ALL defence, which is all typed and positional, to make sure they stacked with primary and secondaries. And yes that includes Psi defence.
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Remember though, that weave is only melee/ranged defence, at least IIRC
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Positionally yes.
It also provides Smash/Lethal/Fire/Cold/Energy and Negative Energy Defence.
These stack with Tough Hide and Invincibility.
So you are protected unless you are fighting Pure Psi or Pure Toxic enemies. Forget about the Melee/Ranged/AoE defence as they will count for almost nothing because of the Unyielding defence debuff.
I've rated Tough and Weave since I6. When I respecced my tanker from my I5 to my I6 build I didn't feel nerfed on defences, because I took Boxing, Tough and Weave instead of Resist Physical Damage, Resist Elements and Resist Energies. As far as attacks go, well that was a different matter.
I've never seen the point of having the extra 10 S/L resist ( RPD ) to hit the resist cap when you have 30% defence ( with 1 enemy in melee range ). The only time I felt I needed it was when trying to fight those DE giant monsters in PI. I know people who disagree with me on this though as you can say it halves incoming damage, but when my strengths are that good, I'd prefer to reinforce my weaknesses ( with Combat Jumping for instance ).
I think Inv tanks benefit the most of the fighting pool. Fire really only gets a good benefit from Tough. Ice only really gets a big benefit from Weave. By the time Stone can get both they are probably close to Granite which is more effective anyway, they benefit from Tough less than Inv or Fire and from Weave less than Ice or ( a surrounded ) Inv.
As for picking Aid Self. From Dr Rocks comparison, Tough + Weave is better than Aid Self + Resist Physical Damage. Both cost 3 power picks.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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Weave is good with Invincibility (assuming enough around you)
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QFT! and in the face of an AV you would have to be one sick tank to try it as more enemies have more chance of hitting you as well as the AV!
If you faced the AV relying on weave and 1 target buffing invincible (tough hide and unyielding cancel out) and you dont have Rel and Ren you should be begging for resistance (all this i say is dependant on tanking style and team support but i will take the resistance thankyou very much as AVs laugh at such poor defence).
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Remember though, that weave is only melee/ranged defence, at least IIRC
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In I6 all defence pool powers were changed to be ALL defence, which is all typed and positional, to make sure they stacked with primary and secondaries. And yes that includes Psi defence.
[/ QUOTE ]Oooo, nicey...I wonder how I missed that...
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Weave is good with Invincibility (assuming enough around you)
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QFT! and in the face of an AV you would have to be one sick tank to try it as more enemies have more chance of hitting you as well as the AV!
If you faced the AV relying on weave and 1 target buffing invincible (tough hide and unyielding cancel out) and you dont have Rel and Ren you should be begging for resistance (all this i say is dependant on tanking style and team support but i will take the resistance thankyou very much as AVs laugh at such poor defence).
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Tough hide provides 2.8 defence over unyielding. I have Combat jumping too. Add on a defence inspiration and I'm good to go. AFAIK AVs don't have to hit buffs, so in I7 they no longer laugh at no defence. My standard tactic in I6 was to take 2 purple pills.
Resist E only reduces incoming damage per second by 14%. Weave reduces it by around 25% against a lone enemy. Ideally you want both, but there is only so much room in a build.
I've found that AVs are rare enough ( max 2 per mission ) that you can just hoard inspirations for them, I consider the fight against standard spawns what you should be primarily planning you build against. The other thing is if you treat the AVs with the caution they deserve you have less chance of being caught out by ones you have no protection against.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Finally i get to reply to this as for some reason the boards were saying i needed an account.
Defense is now scaleable granted, it doesnt play as big a part in my tanking as what effects i can get from the team do. Go pop 4 lucks every minute and face Scirroco with your invuln and see if you last 3 mins or go pop unstoppable for 3 mins and see if you last 3 mins. My money is on unstoppable. Mileages versus the accuracy of different AVs of different levels do vary even without team support.
If i asked any tank if they could have 95% defense to all or 90% resistance to all which would it be i would be gobsmacked to hear "defense please" as defense doesnt come with the guarantees, defense doesnt save you from that one hitter that resistance might that would by time for a team member to put your health back.
In arena you can buy 10% sturdy or 25% luck id rather fill up on lucks and not need any sturdys. Or is that a fair balance of 10% res or 25% luck on offer i wonder.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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In arena you can buy 10% sturdy or 25% luck id rather fill up on lucks and not need any sturdys. Or is that a fair balance of 10% res or 25% luck on offer i wonder.
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The in-game text is wrong (was wrong?) apparently. Lucks aren't actually 25% defense - they're 12.5%.
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DEF
S - 12.5%
M - 25%
L - 33%
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Link to thread on US forum
Castle posts on thread
I haven't seen any mention of the inspiration text being updated so I assume the in-game text hasn't been updated yet?
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
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At least I think that's good news: all of you that were wondering why you sometimes needed to chomp four or five of these little guys now know why: it takes five of these guys to floor an even level boss in I6 (four in I7).
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no wonder defence looked bleak in comparison to resist versus an RV AV, oh wait it did to my eluded super reflex too. i also wonder if AVs have streakbreakers as well where after a period of misses an AV has to hit you.
a small sturdy is at 10% and a small luck is at 12.5% thats not much difference and could it be seen as balanced because at least resistance is guaranteed to work well with regen perhaps i dont know.
In RV i would chomp on 4 at a time (2 with fortitude), as well as taunt from within the pillbox shield which gives +def, +regen, +res to toxic and -tp and would mean that people wouldnt be able to be fighting in the line of fire of cones(standing in front of me) and instead would have to hit the AV from behind but often they could be kited. The first few days of this on test you could of coped with 3 of the AVs pretty well even unsupported until one day they either got some sort of a buff or the def in the shield got nerfed - it did go from easy to hard like that anyway. On live there are so many people and so many tanks where actual taunt control is a mystery (and i swear some tanks must just stand there and look pretty as my blaster gets turned on and shot at by the AVs) and unless the AVs are seriously -damd the pbaoes and aoes get everyone at once.
I've gone and made 2 builds and tried to get my head around it mathematically and decided I am happy with what Unthing has said, it all does my head in anyway, Shannon is pure build and i am happy with that, mileages will always vary.
Weave aint gonna get me my 5th tough badge so ill pass on it and no i wont be leaving my pooter on all night to get it:P
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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At least I think that's good news: all of you that were wondering why you sometimes needed to chomp four or five of these little guys now know why: it takes five of these guys to floor an even level boss in I6 (four in I7).
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no wonder defence looked bleak in comparison to resist versus an RV AV, oh wait it did to my eluded super reflex too. i also wonder if AVs have streakbreakers as well where after a period of misses an AV has to hit you.
[/ QUOTE ]Both players and critters have streakbreaker, due to stupid coding.
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If i asked any tank if they could have 95% defense to all or 90% resistance to all which would it be i would be gobsmacked to hear "defense please" as defense doesnt come with the guarantees, defense doesnt save you from that one hitter that resistance might that would by time for a team member to put your health back
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Then again, if you can cap s/l res easily, any def piled on top of that is just going to get exponentially better and better, survival-wise. I'd rather ensure I'm still standing than have to apologise to the team for falling over, even if it does get me the last tough badge.
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
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If i asked any tank if they could have 95% defense to all or 90% resistance to all which would it be i would be gobsmacked to hear "defense please" as defense doesnt come with the guarantees, defense doesnt save you from that one hitter that resistance might that would by time for a team member to put your health back
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Then again, if you can cap s/l res easily, any def piled on top of that is just going to get exponentially better and better, survival-wise. I'd rather ensure I'm still standing than have to apologise to the team for falling over, even if it does get me the last tough badge.
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In over 1100 hours of tanking on one tank alone i am a stupidly stupidly long way off from 6th debt badge it should in theory if i have the types of teams i am used to take over 2000 hours to get. I do have some good teams to thank, taunt, unstoppable:P and the fact i do not make some of the daft moves other tanks make.
I do realise some tankers do deliberately work hard for their debt badges why i dont know as to me its untankerlike. I wont be ripping my build apart for medic badges, getting confused or staying over night getting sapped by a sapper either. The half hour mezz badge is an embarressment to me.
I cant for the life of me see anything a pure build invuln cant do that a invuln with tough and weave can apart from spend a longer amount of time herding than is actually needed. If i am detoggled through a magnitude of holds my res to any but psi doesnt drop to 0.
Not having weave and tough on top of all primaries means i have more chance of having a shorter fight duration through being more damaging and can afford to have more tools useful for a tanker. Damage mitigation in the face of an AV is mainly achieved through my taunt, alot of the time even level to +2 i could probably tank the AV on my passives alone.
The idea of "needing" tough and weave to be still standing is a total complete myth imo and yes i have had them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Tough and Weave are not needed but give me 8% defence over 10% resistance any day.
And I don't plan on being detoggled, unless I plant, thanks.
I tried both Tough+Weave and Aid Self and I can say that Aid Self really sux for survivability compared to Weave as it's interruptability (is this even a word?) makes it way too unreliable.
The end usage IMO is far higher for Aid Self than for Tough + Weave for the whole fight.
Slotted with 1 end redux in every toggle and attack, plus 2 in Tough and Weave, I have no problem with endurance on my invuln.
I picked RPD too on my invuln but it's defo overkill but I had nothing better to pick at that level bar a pants attack (Punch [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]).
meet jack firenze mission, up lifts, first thing you see is malta waiting for you to open the glass door they are behind, the moment you open the door is 2 hercules class titans, a couple of tactical operatives an operation engineer and a sapper. As soon as you open the door the sapper if +3 as in my case could get you. In my case i have unstoppable and its perfectly soloable to me. When i last checked your build iirc you didnt have unstoppable so are you telling me that you chose rpd instead? i have a super reflex and even with her amount of defense there is no guarantee elude will even save me and so weave wouldnt be a good replacement either.
but yeah nobody plans on being detoggled but even in a carnie mission enough holds can be stacked upon you to detoggle unyielding, rare i know, but true.
invulns natural defense is dmg type related whilst weave and combat jump is positional so afaik they can either stack, partially stack or not stack at all in which in the latters case you could possibly do with some resists.
when i did run tough and weave and my invulns toggles i was also running foc acc and completely soloing 8 man team dreck maps at the time. I found that i was just as good to go without them and i was quicker at killing things due not so such a fast endurance loss and having to wait for conserve to recharge by the time my end was low. Versus praetorian robots i got -def'd and -end enough to say "is this weave actually on?" i turned it off and enjoyed feeling no different and had more endurance.
i have an unused respec ill test weave on the test server because i have due to defense scaleability already said i'll rethink it. Taunt is now moved from 4 - 10 and i can easily trade punch for kick (not boxing cos thatll be like jab twice) i can possibly add tough and weave and not lose resists like before but at the price of having a longer fight duration and less of my valued secondary effects. There is no way i am swapping haste and ss for cj and sj though as my dull pain only needs a rechg buff and its perma'd.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Versus praetorian robots i got -def'd and -end enough to say "is this weave actually on?" i turned it off and enjoyed feeling no different and had more endurance.
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LoL.
The only foes against wich Weave is worse than the passive are Rularuu and Rad Robots, so you picked THE mission were Weave is inferior and I have to agree with you that against that specific kind of foe it's worse than having a wee bit of resistance.
But overall and against everything else, Weave is FAR superior to the passives.
I honestly never had problems with any Sapper as Rage + Char is more than enough to hold them and get rid of 'em before they even realize I'm there.
In case of spawns with 2 Sappers (happened a while back) I just Chard and KO Blow and maybe pop a blue if the second one gets a shot out.
Against carnies I've never been detoggled since I always have 2-3 BFs with me (better safe than sorry) and if I see too many holds on me or too many Illusionists in a spawn I pop a BF.
I picked Unstoppable as my lvl 49, unslotted power on my last respec just to test it(it caps the res by himself and I don't plan on using it as soon as it's up)but I don't feel like I need it unless I'm in a team of morons or in AP showing off to become as shiny as I can.
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I don't feel like I need it unless I'm in a team of morons or in AP showing off to become as shiny as I can.
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id have you know i was in atlas park last night testing its recharge with various recharge buffs with more RV action in mind.
I have just been on test with the Shannon thats pyre mastery (as i have had 1 of each for ages) but for concept reasons i dont have it, my fire/fire will though where as my ice will be ice epic and my stone will be stone epic. but i have shannon on test with each epic to see if certain missions go better with any particular one. The epics change the way i need to tank and thats it, it does also mean that the way players interact with me is also important as also it should be if you only had a trick archer in the team and not the empath your used to.
I really wanted to make a build with weave on it because i havent tested it with defense scaleability (and you guys were preaching it as good even before defense scaleability) but the character copy tool is down apparently and so id need to wait to do that.
If i like weave of course i'll have it on live but for now i have had to make do trying it out with lucks.
In a mob where you get enough stacked holds to cripple unyielding and detoggle you your healthbar can drop to nothing in the time it takes to even pop a break free and thats with all the passive resists. Its nice of course to be constantly be kept as mezz protected as possible by a buff if possible.
my knockout blow has a duration of about 10 seconds on a +3 sapper, its about the same as char unslotted for holds but its more than enough to drop the sapper on my own. It is 2 acc, 1 end 3 hold, plus tohit buffed by foc acc that has 3 tohits in it and if i wanted i can use rage (but still i often dont) but even with all that accuracy i can still miss and thats when they are pigs, in melee range an instant bf or blue and possibly click unstoppable. Char can miss just as easily and then i would need knockout blow but what if i cant use it becausee i have no endurance, thats still unstoppable required for enough end recovery and untoggleable mezz protection, with conserve energy i can get attacks off on discounted endurance. Firetanks run about with stamina and consume, icetanks with stamina and energy absorption, stonetanks have resist to end drain and my invuln has conserve.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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id have you know i was in atlas park last night testing its recharge with various recharge buffs with more RV action in mind.
[/ QUOTE ]I wasn't talking about you because I wasn't in AP last night, but more about myself and Amducious that used to pop Rage, fully toggle up and use Unstoppable to amaze newbies a while back. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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id have you know i was in atlas park last night testing its recharge with various recharge buffs with more RV action in mind.
[/ QUOTE ]I wasn't talking about you because I wasn't in AP last night, but more about myself and Amducious that used to pop Rage, fully toggle up and use Unstoppable to amaze newbies a while back. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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aww okay does look pretty i admit and any excuse is a good excuse really.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
As my Inv/Fire slowly churns his way towards 50 (46 now), I'm facing the final respec - the power choices which will be with him forevermore (free respecs notwithstanding, might never happen again!).
To prepare for this monumental event, I did some checking on the numbers and sustainable damage (thanks to Doc Rock) for various pools.
The first thing that struck me, was how hopeless REn and REl are, upping sustainability by a massive *twenty* seconds. For two power picks and four slots. I never took them, as the numbers always looked tiny, and certainly will not now.
Tough is almost a no-brainer for taking the most damage, as it allows Inv tankers to hit the golden Res cap for S/L damage - Using my 34 respec, I'd respecced out of Weave when someone told me just how low the number for it is. With the same respec, I took Aid Self, and noticed an overall increase in toughness, so gave weave no more thought.
Sustainable damage numbers are saying to me here, that Weave will take my survivability from 2396 secs, to a rather beefier 4131 secs - curse the Tanker who told me Weave was not worth taking! That's only slightly shy of the increase in survivability granted by Aid Self, and Weave should boost the effectiveness of Aid Self, with (theoretically) slightly fewer interrupts. This also means that for overall survivability, Weave does more for an Inv tanker than Tough?
Is this a surprise to anyone bar me? Or is Weave the holy grail of tanking that somehow I missed, the shining jewel of the power pool toggles that noone told me about?
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!