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Quote:Large amounts of -end are possibly the only thing that scares me on my warshade. Extra recovery on Lightform and reduced costs from Conserve Power might make this less of a problem for pb's though (mine still burns through end like madAnd I've never really had a problem with -end and -slow on dwarf, so I've never relied on them.
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Quote:"What kills me is people over in the Kheldian forum are actually saying that with these new changes LF is too powerful now and that the Resistance given should be lowered because they can cap Resistance with IOs and just LF alone," is also irrelevant as I specifically stated in that thread it was not for balance purposes as we balance around SO's. I said it multiple times, and that was also part of the reason I didn't post real numbers, merely relationships. Plus, if someone considers the suggestion predominant there--keep the overall resistance the same (cap), just lower it in lightform so we can get some psi protection too--a nerf, well, that just doesn't follow.Are you referring to Microcosm's analysis of the new Light Form? Unless Joe has posted something, those are the only "new numbers" that are coming to mind.... It's irrelevant though because the conversations you're referring to happened before we knew about any of these changes.
P.S. SO's make it very nearly cap too, the only real difference is that IO's can let you keep it perma. If you are not keeping it perma because you are on SO's, you should be taking the toggle shields too, in which case wanting lightform to cap resistance by itself when you could have it cap with the shields you already have instead and give you psi resistance is just silly. -
I agree with your friend, outside of heavy mez situations. The defense from combat flight/shadow cloak and pool toggles combines with resistance to make human form sturdier than dwarf, even with the latter's +hp. If dwarf kept the same or almost equal defense, it would have a clear survival advantage with the extra hp, but as it stands it is definitely a trap. I still keep it for those heavy mez situations, taunt, and dwarf mire or sublimation.
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Quote:Grounded is immob, kb, and endurance drain, not hold or sleep. The protection also still applies while you are hovering if you are close enough to the ground. Most of your mez protection comes from static shield.Also you will not get the benefits from grounded if you do use Hover, IE mez protection, and KBs. Mez like holds, imm, sleep. If you look around on this forum u can find my build for my Ele/DB tank.
I agree it would probably be better to get s/l defense. -
You really ought to try the musculature radial tier 4 with power sink, because the enddrain stays consistently potent when you turn up the difficulty and its always autohit.
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Quote:Most people are not saying to lower the overall resistance here; it has been suggested that they lower the wasted resistance that goes over the cap and add in some psi resistance instead. That would actually increase survivability.For some reason, many Kheldian Players *love* the fact that the PB is weak compared to other ATs.
I remember Lord Xenite (I think) relishing that the PB was always an 'Underdog'. I suggest that if you want to play an underdog, just purposefully screw your slotting and power picks up. But no, some want under-performance 'Built In' to the AT.
*Boggles* -
Quote:I've never had these survival problems you guys are talking about. Toxic is the closest thing to a real hole, and usually you aren't facing it long enough that you can't finish that arachnoid mission before power surge wears off. If you truly can't handle it within the time of power surge, boosted power sink is strong enough to cover that up, easy. For the brief time I was vil-side with my db/elec and kat/elec, I handled all arachnoid missions with power sink and never even needed power surge.Micro, no offense, but what do you do when your power surge is recharging? bio break? reply on forums?
Because every "gap" we point, you point power surge back as if it was up 100% of the time and solved all problems :P
I do, however, have a perma-power surge claws/electric brute build that will work as soon as burnout goes live, with time not in power surge covered by Eye of the MagusYou would likely do better with a consistently s/l capped /electric, though.
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Quote:To this i would say no, for entirely selfish reasons: it is much easier to add defense to your high resistance through IOs than the other way around. I very much like my capped resistance.
For PBs for example, if Light Form were to grant Defence like Moment of Glory, it would be a useful godmode over and above our already high resistance. I would happily sacrifice the +resistance component entirely for this, and have the duration reduced such that it can't be made perma. -
Quote:You won't need the shields with fully slotted lightform. I've got a full set of impervium armor in it which almost caps resistance by itself; the small amount still needed for s/l/f/c is made up with set bonuses, and for e/n incandescence will cover you.Well, I have an all human PB build that I will try taking out of retirement when all this hits.
So, I'd like to sit at close to cap resist (85%) when I hit the new lightform in all non-psi areas, so that means I'll have and use all the shields. What kinds of slotting are we looking at for the Shields and Lightform for that to happen? Will I need to get Tough to max out S/L resist?
btw, Love that lightform isn't turning us into the glowing puffball anymore - what can I say, I make character costumes for a reason, and hate having them disappear. -
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Ya, power surge takes care of negative and toxic, so that would be the problem. It is one of the safest crashes, if that helps, generating an EMP that will hold most things around you when it wears off. Without that tier 9 you are just a sitting duck for toxic damage.
New Devouring Earth can tear up anything; your best bet is to drain them or simply kill them before they kill you. -
IMO with the set bonuses to softcap s/l, electric and dark should be the best all-around. I can't figure out what kind of holes you are talking about with a s/l softcapped electric, unless you gimped recharge on energize. Add in musculature radial and powersink becomes able to completely sap anything short of EB or AV after their alpha strike, bosses included. Perhaps you didn't take power surge and decided to run against Hydra or Arachnids?
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Quote:Yup, which also means you can completely discount it if you want. Checking should come from others doing something similar and roughly corroborating or contradicting with what I've got. The reasons are (A) I spend hours upon hours on my personal builds, and I hate the idea that someone might just copy one; (B) these builds are not indicative of 'normal' and are not to be balanced around as IO builds, I'd rather the devs and everyone else look to your master-SO spreadsheets for real balance; (C) see 'A.'Question: if you won't post numbers, and you won't post builds, and you won't post formulas, just how are your figures supposed to be checked? Are we just supposed to take your word for it?
Formulas are fine though. Survivable dps is measured as:
(Total average HP regained/second) / [(Enemy Chance Tohit)*(1-%Resistance)]
For example, if a build averaged 15hp/sec with heals included and had resistance capped it would be: 15/(.5*.15) = 200 dps to the given damage type.
I don't have to worry about uptime vs downtime as eclipse and lightform are perma.
Quote:Having said that, however, it meshes pretty well with the numbers I've gotten:
Quote:So does this mean that you're convinced the two are balanced, now?
Quote:Granted, Flux Vector could have kept a civil tongue in his head
Quote:In my opinion, it should provide enough resistance to everything including Psi that all resists can be capped at 85% with the use of shields or Dwarf form. I don't think it should allow you to cap all resists with the click of a button, the crash isn't a big enough penalty for a power like that.. Like you said, it's a breeze to recover from.
Quote:(By the way, is conserve power going to have a purpose on a perma-LF build? I thought LF itself provided the same recovery bonus or similar to conserve power, so if it can be run all the time is there a reason to have both powers?) -
Quote:With no fluffy opportunities the pb is stronger by about 20 dps.Heh, your analysis shows that Peacebringers have much more consistent survivability for sure. Do you know what the DPS difference is between Warshades and Peacebringers against a single target, with no opportunity for fluffies?
It seems like Peacebringers should be doing less damage than Warshades when the Warshade is in its' niche (surrounded by bodies) but that it should also be doing more damage when Warshades have no fodder. Still though, the gap should be much smaller.
(The way you talk up Orbiting Death + reactive and the optimal Human Form attack chain, you make me want to spec into a Human Only build on my Warshade. >< Something else I've noticed when teaming with Human Form Warshades is that the combination of orbiting death + Inky Aspect seems to do a good job of keeping aggro off fluffies consistently. Add provoke into the mix and wow.)
Hold off on the respec until I can test. I'm 99% sure it is functioning the way I have it, but there is still that 1%. -
Ya on SOs that's probably not going to happen. I did that mission this weekend on my pb as well (getting him ready for the changes), and, while I took the other one out, I had to call in some help for honeree. I would almost have him and he would heal or pop a tier 9.
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Quote:Ya I actually meant the latter so as not to break the cottage rule and for the fun you mentionedUm... you mean instead of group flight, you'd want a damage aura, not "add a damage aura to group flight," correct?
Just confirming, because the latter would be HI-larious.
"Follow me into the air, squishies! Oh, by the way we'll be doing just enough damage to everything we fly past to direct the wrath of the entire lot right at you..."
I'd take it.Could be turned to combat hover to provide the team a very small defense bonus as well. Before people could choose to make travel powers not affect them I would have had a problem but now... Just something to make it useful at all.
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Well, I'd say from the IO perspective they are doing quite well, survival-wise. The damage difference is beyond pathetic, though. It runs into the same problem as Smiling Joe's SO builds: photon seekers just aren't performing. It's reasonable for an IO'd shade to keep 3 damage-ED capped fluffies out on their own, and while they don't last long against seriously hard targets, that gives the Warshade a ~130 dps lead over the pb's. This is even with Achilles procs slotted in the pb chain. If it weren't for reactive's interaction with Orbiting death, though, the pb would do a little better than the ws with one pet.
The warshade build I'm using is overperforming a bit on damage though, as in with 3.3 pets it theoretically does more damage than my db/elec scrapper (in the pylon thread). Don't have a pylon number yet as the stupid fluffies dive-bomb the pylons and die.
If pb's some how magically had a damage aura to use with reactive (*cough* change group fly into a gravity-reversing damage aura), the damage difference would be much less. Still, it's all photon seekers fault -
Quote:-5% tohit on a normal foe translates to 10% less incoming damage (50% normal chance tohit for non-incarnate critters).
A debuff of foe -5% tohit does NOT translate to -5% incoming damage. It's more - much more, on the order of 20%.
Tohitdebuffs are awesome; my only problem with them is that they become almost completely meaningless against AVs because of their debuff resistance, while defense remains the same unless the AV has higher than normal tohit. That has kept me from making a /dark for a long time. -
Old doesn't mean they aren't useful. The i12 guide you refer to is mine, and absolutely nothing has changed that would affect its information or obviate it. So little has changed over the years for khelds that it really hasn't mattered, but expect some updated pb guides with i21.
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Quote:The guide I was referring to was written like two issues ago. Did you check toward the end of the thread? I'd provide a link, but I'm on my phone here.Eh. I read the thread at the top of the forum. Last updated WS guide was I9.
It's I20 at the moment
that's an 11 issue difference.
Edit: http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...-warshade.html -
1. WS's are more controllery, and more form-friendly; however, they are more difficult to play and only get really good later on.
2. No time limits, it's just the different forms offer different things. Controls? human. Need ranged damage? nova. Taking too much heat? dwarf. It can be tricky dancing around between the three, so you should check the binds thread stickied on this forum for some really helpful tools.
3. Yes; you need to be in the forms to use them. They will not initially show up in your powers tray, though. You will need to open up the Powers tab and drag them from your inherents onto your trays.
4. They do not give boosts to teammates, and this is a complaint of many people who like Veats. They are currently out of balance, but that's being somewhat worked on.
5. i21 will affect mostly pb's. Lightform, the tier 9, is being altered to be usable in forms and more frequent, like the warshade tier 9, Eclipse. Build Up is being turned in to Inner Light, which will extend a weakened version of its effects for an extra 20 seconds after the initial 10 second full-buff (helpful for form switching). Photon Seekers (pb "pet" which is really a mini-nuke) is having its recharge shortened, but it's still going to be too weak. Pb's will get a new fly-speed boosting power similar to the new one in the Flight pool, and Ws's will be getting a new zone-teleport power also similar to the one in the TP pool. Taunts of both Dwarves will be autohit. Shadow Cloak (Warshade) and Combat Flight (pb) are getting a bug fixed so that they offer typed defense as well as positional. The best AoE human pb's have, Solar Flare, will be usable from the air (used to be on the ground only, which was silly as you get an inherent version of hover). Some issues, like knockback in questionable places, are still not being fixed as the devs are afraid pb's will become overpowered (I'd lol, but it's more sad than funny).
6. Warshades can reach higher levels of power than Peacebringers, while Peacebringers are more consistent in their performance. That sounds nice and all, but the difference between power levels of the two is way too big. New Lightform makes Pb's much better on survival than they were (and I personally feel better than Ws's as a whole), but the damage difference between the two is horribly large in the Warshade's favor; this is entirely due to the pets, as warshades get pretty awesome pets (Dark Extraction) while Peacebringers get possibly the worst pets in the game.
Someone will be along shortly to point you to a certain "MFing Warshade" guide -
So in the process of creating new builds for my pb for i21 changes, I decided to compare max sustained survival on maxed-out IO builds between pb's and ws's. We don't balance around IO's, so the following is in no way indicative of SO performance or standard play in anyway. In order not to inadvertently color anyone's opinions, I am not listing actual numbers, just the relationship between the two as per the absolute best builds I can muster. I will not be posting builds either
The relationships will change build-by-build, this is just how they are with mine.
A few notes:
-This is not including Rebirth, as that is a major pain to calculate, but it definitely would favor the pb with much higher hit points. Spiritual boosting recharge and heal for both.
-This is in human form so the WS can make use of its shields and tough to help when Eclipse hits too few to cap itself. The PB caps with just Lightform, so it does not include shields.
-Both have the same defense %'s.
-The WS includes essence drain as part of its attack chain, so its heal is added in.
-Where Stygian Circle is listed, it's assumed that x number of minion-level corpse(s) will constantly be available.
-All these numbers are against s/l. Other damage types besides psi will favor the pb until Eclipse hits enough to cap. Psi will favor Eclipse always, obviously.
-Builds are perma-Eclipse and perma-Lightform.
-Lightform's crash is included.
Comparison:
ws w/one eclipse and shields/tough: pb can take nearly 4x as much s/l damage as the ws, even more against other damage types.
+1 stygian: pb more than 2x against s/l
+2 stygian: pb more than 1.5x against s/l
+3 stygian: pb 1.24x
+4 stygian: pb = ws
+5(max health everytime) stygain: pb 0.86x ws
ws w/2+ eclipse targets (cap s/l; e/n/f/c require 3+): pb 1.86x s/l
+1 stygian: pb 1.07x s/l
+2 stygian: pb .75x
+3 stygian: pb .58x
+4 stygian: pb .47x
+5(max health everytime) stygian: pb .40x
Max discrepancy shows the Pb doing nearly 4 times better when facing a single target with no corpses and the Ws doing theoretically 2.5 times better when Eclipse-capped and gaining full health everytime stygian circle is recharged. ("Theoretically" because that assumes the warshade hits 1 hp exactly when it hits stygian circle).
Interesting, no? What are you guys getting?
Just to add, from the extremely rough way I calculate the fluffies with reactive, damage-wise I get this for single target in human form:
No ws pets, pb greater by ~20dps
1 ws pets, ws greater by ~30dps
2 ws pets, ws greater by ~80dps
3 ws pets, ws greater by ~130dps
Max possible ws pets (recharge cap), ws greater by ~170dps -
Regarding toggle suppression, why make the shields suppress but inky aspect or orbiting death just plain turnoff? That makes no sense, as the point of suppression is to avoid the annoyance of always having to turn these toggles back on when going back to human. Offensive toggles turn off during mez suppression as a detriment to your character; if toggles suppress because of something a player does, the offensive ones suppress too, not turn off (see Stalker Dark Armor). Really, activating the shields (with .924 arcancasttime) is not a big deal compared to activating orbiting death or inky aspect (2.244 cast and 1.32 cast respectively).