Obviously you are frustrated here, but I have to say that my experience playing these ATs does not match yours and frankly I find them very fun to play and quite powerful when played well (the Warshade in particular feels almost overpowered in many situations).
I would suggest that you post your builds for review, as it may very well be that some of us could assist you in tweaking your builds and maybe having more fun with your Khelds as they are now. To address the issues you did mention specifically above:
1. Voids/Quantums/Cysts
This is a common complaint and, to be fair, one that can really be difficult to deal with in the early levels or if one is trying to play on jacked-up difficulty settings (which I know many people enjoy doing). However, these have already been nerfed multiple times.
Again, speaking from personal experience, these enemies are not the game-breaking, instant-death enemies that they might appear to be. Quantums are easily dealt with unless they are bosses, in which case either your difficulty is up high or you are on a large team. If the former and you are having trouble, turn the diff down. If that latter, your teammates should be helping out. Voids can stun you, which often does end up a death sentence, but no worse than being stunned by a Malta guy, and the solution is the same - mez them first and take them out. As for Cysts, unless the team reacts poorly and rushes the Cyst I rarely see problems with them anymore as most people know how to handle them. Outside of Master runs, I cant recall the last time a Cyst caused more than a minor hiccup when playing my Khelds. Again, this is my experience talking and I am not trying to say yours is incorrect - I take you at your word that you are having these problems to this degree, but given that I and others have been able to do much better on builds without any special advantages such as purpled-out builds or full T4 incarnate powers, I would suggest that there may be room to do better within the AT as it current stands.
2. Under-performance?
More or less addressed above, but you have only to look at several of the Kheld forum regulars to see that many of us perform very well. Again, Warshades tend to do better than the peacebringers who could use a bit of an improvement in performance relative to their dark cousins, but I wouldnt call either of them a complete waste to play - my peacebringer may not be the juggernaut my warshade is, but he is a sturdy melee combatant with a dash of healing and a bit of control thrown in and he is an asset to a team.
3. Balance/parity versus VEATs
This is another sticking point, and ultimately it comes down to fundamentally different design. There will always be people that feel that the VEAT design got it right and that Kheldians were a failure. If you enjoy the VEAT design more or if you do not enjoy the way Khelds work, that is fine and it is no mark against you as a player, but it does not necessarily meant that there is a fundamental design flaw with the Kheldian ATs that requires a total revamp - it may just be that these ATs are not for you.
In short, based on my experience with these ATs, I disagree that a revamp is indicated here. Tweaks, sure, particularly with respect to pbs, but not a revamp, and I believe you are overstating the threat that our special enemies (V/Q/C) represent. I would be happy to help you with your builds and play tactics if you wish, as I am sure the other regulars would as well, but if you decide these ATs are not your cup of tea, well that would also be understandable.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
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Justaris pretty well summed it up.
Voids have, frankly, been neutered for quite some time. And they're not really put in to "balance against the power of Khelds" - they're in game for a story reason (the "epic" in EAT.) Admittedly some look rather silly in some places, but the game's evolved some since they were brought in.
I just look at them as extra crispy XP.
I love the Voids. The fun ones are really only red or purple bosses and sometimes Lt's. Feels special to have people hunting u specifically when ur on a team all the time. Picking u out of the crowd for a reason. With the shadow cysts and long as the team listens when one pops up and let me go in first we have no problems. Just eat a couple purples and jump in Dwarf and dive right in the middle of that sucker and pound it out. Make sure to get back as its defeated cause it goes big boom. I'd be glad to help u out with any questions about peacebringers. Oh and I is powerful.
EDIT: added the Dwarf part.
I'd like to echo everything Justaris said. Voids are more of an interesting feature to Kheldians than a threat now days, and I have seen (and done) amazing things with warshades (and to a lesser extent peacebringers). Perhaps you just need to try a new build or something?
Funny thing is that the title of this thread is the same as an episode of the original He-Man cartoon where Skeletor tricked He-Man into thinking he accidentally killed an innocent bystander.
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You mean the not-heartbeating race fellow who disguised as a construction worker and pretended to got under rumble He-Man throw? Same episode where Adam throw his sword to gap in front of Greyskull than dive there with his flyer bike? Epic Episode.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Funny thing is that the title of this thread is the same as an episode of the original He-Man cartoon where Skeletor tricked He-Man into thinking he accidentally killed an innocent bystander.
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On the topic: I can't talk about PB (since mine is sitting at level 8 for last 5 years) but for my WS i don't have any problem with any void and their counterparts most of the time my fluffies beat them before i even see them. For cryst's YAY free eclipse and mire fill.
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Yep that was it, HE-Man out of guilt renounces the power and tosses the sword into the abyss around Castle Greyskull. When Orko learns the truth and tells him he goes to reclaim the sword and the power of greyskull to save Teela. I think either Peter David or JMS wrote that ep.
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Originally Posted by Kangstor
You mean the not-heartbeating race fellow who disguised as a construction worker and pretended to got under rumble He-Man throw? Same episode where Adam throw his sword to gap in front of Greyskull than dive there with his flyer bike? Epic Episode.
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I really wouldn't mind a revamp of the AT, although I can imagine that the purple Kheldians are pretty content with their lot.
Overall, Kheldians (and really I mean Peacebringers here) strike me as another relic from a period of game design when the devs were inadvertently designing "against the grain". The game is full of this stuff because it's well over 7 years old now. It's foolish to believe that an MMO is designed purely by it's staff, and we're all just along for the ride. Players take a role in influencing the design. Sometimes the designers can anticipate or cater to the player trend, and sometimes they just miss. PB's fall into the latter category, IMO.
Oh, sure there will be some who don't mind the way way that Kheldians play, and it's possible there are even a few who enjoy the constant shapeshifting, or the lack of synergy between PB abilities. But the Devs have demonstrated a new "finesse" in AT/powerset design since the days of Cryptic, and Kheldians, more than any other AT, could benefit from it.
I've considered the possibility that I "just don't get it", that PB's are just not my thing. But I've also been playing this game for as long as it's been running. I've played every AT, and decided that stalkers aren't my cup of tea. Not that they are poor performers, but I just don't care for the play style, so I never leveled one up. PB's, on the other hand, just feel mishandled. In all the years I've been playing, my PB was the only 50 I ever deleted.
With the current changes on Beta, it still just seems like the Devs don't know what to do with PBs.
"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend
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I consider the lightform changes to be a small step in the right direction. More improvements are needed.
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Originally Posted by _Toxa_
I really wouldn't mind a revamp of the AT, although I can imagine that the purple Kheldians are pretty content with their lot.
Overall, Kheldians (and really I mean Peacebringers here) strike me as another relic from a period of game design when the devs were inadvertently designing "against the grain". The game is full of this stuff because it's well over 7 years old now. It's foolish to believe that an MMO is designed purely by it's staff, and we're all just along for the ride. Players take a role in influencing the design. Sometimes the designers can anticipate or cater to the player trend, and sometimes they just miss. PB's fall into the latter category, IMO. Oh, sure there will be some who don't mind the way way that Kheldians play, and it's possible there are even a few who enjoy the constant shapeshifting, or the lack of synergy between PB abilities. But the Devs have demonstrated a new "finesse" in AT/powerset design since the days of Cryptic, and Kheldians, more than any other AT, could benefit from it. I've considered the possibility that I "just don't get it", that PB's are just not my thing. But I've also been playing this game for as long as it's been running. I've played every AT, and decided that stalkers aren't my cup of tea. Not that they are poor performers, but I just don't care for the play style, so I never leveled one up. PB's, on the other hand, just feel mishandled. In all the years I've been playing, my PB was the only 50 I ever deleted. With the current changes on Beta, it still just seems like the Devs don't know what to do with PBs. |
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And I consider the Light Form changes to be a rather large step in the wrong direction. Don't get me wrong. Light Form is now dead frickin' easy to use. I don't even notice the crash any more.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
I consider the lightform changes to be a small step in the right direction. More improvements are needed.
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But I can have capped resistances and massive endurance gains on a permable recharge, AND mez protection? What's the point of taking dwarf form if that's the case. If Castle wouldn't give human form shields mez protection for fear of obviating dwarf, then Light Form's current incarnation pretty much made the dwarf fade into non-existence.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Originally Posted by Nericus
I consider the lightform changes to be a small step in the right direction. More improvements are needed.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
And I consider the Light Form changes to be a rather large step in the wrong direction.
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) on this matter. Check my previous posts if you are dying for details.
P.S. Lightform should be retitled "Resplendence."
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The point is that Dwarf Form, despite being touted as the 'tanking' form, is actually a very poor substitute for a tank. And worse, Dwarf Form's damage is poor at the same time. Except for the mez protection, you tank better as a Human-form than as a Dwarf; you have more mitigation and recovery tools in human form than you do in Dwarf form, and the increased resist in Dwarf doesn't make up for the loss of them.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
But I can have capped resistances and massive endurance gains on a permable recharge, AND mez protection? What's the point of taking dwarf form if that's the case. If Castle wouldn't give human form shields mez protection for fear of obviating dwarf, then Light Form's current incarnation pretty much made the dwarf fade into non-existence.
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A friend of mine, who's analyzed the archetype's performance, has always said 'Dwarf form is a trap.'
This just makes the trap more obvious.
What the archetype *needs* more than anything else is damage. Damage, damage, damage. Even with the previous round of revisions, where damage scalars were tweaked upwards, Peacebringers could use yet MORE of an increase.
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This is exactly why I say that the Devs still don't know what to do with PBs. This particular flavor of the Kheldian AT has a reputation for poor synergy amongst it's powers, and the new changes to Lightform, while useful to human-form builds, highlight this ongoing problem.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
And I consider the Light Form changes to be a rather large step in the wrong direction. Don't get me wrong. Light Form is now dead frickin' easy to use. I don't even notice the crash any more.
But I can have capped resistances and massive endurance gains on a permable recharge, AND mez protection? What's the point of taking dwarf form if that's the case. If Castle wouldn't give human form shields mez protection for fear of obviating dwarf, then Light Form's current incarnation pretty much made the dwarf fade into non-existence. |
"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend
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How about: Dwarf form gets a fury bar?
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
The point is that Dwarf Form, despite being touted as the 'tanking' form, is actually a very poor substitute for a tank. And worse, Dwarf Form's damage is poor at the same time. Except for the mez protection, you tank better as a Human-form than as a Dwarf; you have more mitigation and recovery tools in human form than you do in Dwarf form, and the increased resist in Dwarf doesn't make up for the loss of them.
A friend of mine, who's analyzed the archetype's performance, has always said 'Dwarf form is a trap.' This just makes the trap more obvious. What the archetype *needs* more than anything else is damage. Damage, damage, damage. Even with the previous round of revisions, where damage scalars were tweaked upwards, Peacebringers could use yet MORE of an increase. |
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But at times that trap dishes out a not too insignificant amount of hurt.|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
A friend of mine, who's analyzed the archetype's performance, has always said 'Dwarf form is a trap.'
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=266547&page=3
But, yeah, about the whole human vs. dwarf tanking thing...the devs really should try out some of our other proposals...at least on test...
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Originally Posted by Nericus
How about: Dwarf form gets a fury bar?
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A novel idea...??? (I don't remember reading of it before).
Still, I'd rather see a Rage Clone...oh well...I reckon I'll just have to get used to inner light.
I would rather see both Dwarf forms get -endurance protection, that would make them both extremely valuable to me.
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Originally Posted by AIB
But at times that trap dishes out a not too insignificant amount of hurt.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=266547&page=3 But, yeah, about the whole human vs. dwarf tanking thing...the devs really should try out some of our other proposals...at least on test... A novel idea...??? (I don't remember reading of it before). Still, I'd rather see a Rage Clone...oh well...I reckon I'll just have to get used to inner light. |
No not rage, I wouldnt want the rage crash. A fury bar though would be nice.
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Inherent fitness with perf shifter proc, a per shifter proc in the dwarf power, and cardiac. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I would rather see both Dwarf forms get -endurance protection, that would make them both extremely valuable to me.
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Yes I use the perf shifter proc in my Nova form and in Stamina. Even if I had the extra slot to put one in Dwarf, that wouldn't stop Mu's and Sappers from totally ruining my day when they're out in full force. As for Cardiac, I'm not willing to give up my Spiritual Core Paragon... It's way too useful. Not only is the extra recharge awesome, but it's adding a 33% stun enhancement to Unchain Essence, which I have 5 slotted with Positron's Blast.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Inherent fitness with perf shifter proc, a per shifter proc in the dwarf power, and cardiac.
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It's also getting me much better enhancement values for Healing on Dwarf Drain since I have it 6 slotted with 4 Kinetic Combats, a Numina: heal, and a Numina: Heal/Endurance. There are tons of other powers that are benefiting way too much from Spiritual for me to consider switching.
edit: I just remembered I'm using Numina IO's in Dwarf Drain, not Miracle.
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I prefer a Rage Clone for several reasons.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
No not rage, I wouldnt want the rage crash. A fury bar though would be nice.
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1. It would be able to be double stacked which would easily increase a PBs DPS beyond (perhaps well beyond) the current buildup and/or the power on test known as inner light.
2. There are SO many things that I can do with my PB during the crash that it would not be much of an issue for me...e.g. Shifting Forms, Hasten, Conserve Power or Lightform, Healing teammates, Healing Myself, taunting, positioning, turning on shields or toggles, using Pulsar, using temp attack powers (if need be) etc.
3. I associate Fury with Brutes. After all, it is...inherent.
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We've talked about that in the beta forums as well. The light form change was needed, as the old version wasn't all that great and was worse than Eclipse in comparison. And it's still only mag 3 protection in Light form, so more than one stacking of a mez type is going to get you, which can't be said of Dwarf.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
And I consider the Light Form changes to be a rather large step in the wrong direction. Don't get me wrong. Light Form is now dead frickin' easy to use. I don't even notice the crash any more.
But I can have capped resistances and massive endurance gains on a permable recharge, AND mez protection? What's the point of taking dwarf form if that's the case. If Castle wouldn't give human form shields mez protection for fear of obviating dwarf, then Light Form's current incarnation pretty much made the dwarf fade into non-existence. |
Dwarf does need improving, but Light Form is not the problem. The auto-hit taunt is going to be a help to make it a more effective tanking power, bu it still needs some status resistance (-end, -slow) to make it work. I think every resist based set in the game now has status resistance because they are going to be hit by everything, and Dwarf could use the same treatment. As I pointed out in the beta forums, this could be a great way for Dwarf to work better/different from Human and be more of a viable choice.
I would also so Dwarf needs to get closer to Tank damage numbers, because Dwarf has way more trouble with dropping bosses than my Tanks ever do.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I agree with your friend, outside of heavy mez situations. The defense from combat flight/shadow cloak and pool toggles combines with resistance to make human form sturdier than dwarf, even with the latter's +hp. If dwarf kept the same or almost equal defense, it would have a clear survival advantage with the extra hp, but as it stands it is definitely a trap. I still keep it for those heavy mez situations, taunt, and dwarf mire or sublimation.
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
A friend of mine, who's analyzed the archetype's performance, has always said 'Dwarf form is a trap.'
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The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
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My problem with the light form change isn't that some sort of change wasn't needed, and isn't that it's too strong. My problem with it is that it was made without considering what it did to the forms, and that no further changes to the forms are likely to be forthcoming. Judging by the tone of Arbiter Hawk's post that you quoted, they're pretty happy with Peacebringers as they are. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
We've talked about that in the beta forums as well. The light form change was needed, as the old version wasn't all that great and was worse than Eclipse in comparison. And it's still only mag 3 protection in Light form, so more than one stacking of a mez type is going to get you, which can't be said of Dwarf.
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| Dwarf does need improving, but Light Form is not the problem. The auto-hit taunt is going to be a help to make it a more effective tanking power, bu it still needs some status resistance (-end, -slow) to make it work. |
Changing it to auto-hit was little more than a token.
And I've never really had a problem with -end and -slow on dwarf, so I've never relied on them. I have conserve power and Dwarf's own +recovery for -end and I've always had hasten for -rech (Never mind the fact that we'll have access to Burnout when Freedom launches) and White Dwarf Step for -slow. I'm not sure why people are clamoring for those changes over psi/toxic resists, but whatever.
I've never thought dwarf was a trap. The problems dwarf form encounters are easily mitigated with a little forethought and skill, but the limitations imposed upon it are a different story. They're there for a reason, but that reason is only valid if the limitations imposed on the other forms are observed. IMHO the limitations of human form have been broken without a whole lot of consideration towards the forms, so I wouldn't say no to anything that would improve dwarf and nova.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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It was needed to -stack- with the forms, too? Atleast in Eclipse we needed enemies. Now Light form will soon be the best clicky in the game, damn near.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
We've talked about that in the beta forums as well. The light form change was needed, as the old version wasn't all that great and was worse than Eclipse in comparison. And it's still only mag 3 protection in Light form, so more than one stacking of a mez type is going to get you, which can't be said of Dwarf.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I would also so Dwarf needs to get closer to Tank damage numbers, because Dwarf has way more trouble with dropping bosses than my Tanks ever do.
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Alright, I have had it...
I have played a Peacebringer, and a Warshade (both Triform) to 50, I have seen the highs and lows of this AT, and it has been an incredibly painful experience.
I am over in the beta forums and read this "The devs don't want Kheldians to become to powerful"
...
...
WHAT!!!
Why not?!
Simply put no other AT in the game is directly punished for being played. I am speaking of the Voids. We have a specific flag in the game that is tagged on our teams spawning enemies gunning for us, to balance our apparent uberness but now that we are balanced with the rest of the ATs, well it is beyond under-performing, it is starting to be a joke.
Kheldians have some of the coolest powers, and story in the game, but most players will never see it because the learning curve is so harsh... We cannot be balanced against VEATs until either they get constant debuffing enemies in they're missions, (which I DO NOT suggest), or we get buffed to the point that the Void Stalkers and cysts aren't a game breaker.
Our inherent is a boost from the various members of our party, but it never seems to make a real difference. Please I am begging you I love my characters, I love the idea of the triform character, but it is a complete waste now for me to play them sadly.
Please do a true revamp for the Khelds, and bring them in line with the power the constant ambushes by they're lethal enemies would demand. If we are going to be ambushed by things that can 1 or 2 shot us, then give us the power that would balance that.
Thanks,
Elvnsword
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...