The Problem with Power
To make dwarf form closer in damage to other tanks is ridiculous. Who the hell would play tanks?
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Anyone who wants to hold aggro better: Dwarf taunt, autohit or not, is lightyears behind gauntlet.
Anyone who wants to increase the whole team's damage with a resistance debuff in their tier 1: 'nuff said.
Anyone who wants to be that tough but play a defense set, or a weapon set, or have extra AoE's.
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I think it better to discuss PBs and reevaluate them once the next issue hits. I don't so much as find group fly out of place on PBs. I can blatantly see why that's there. I think the changes to come are a plus so to me its better to see those changes live before getting deeper into things.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Make the god damned Inherent DO something when solo, and in fact scrap needing a team for it to work, for pity sakes...
Only Defenders have (part of) an Inherent that relies on teams, and that's because they are THE Team Buff AT. PBs and WSs are NOT.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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This is another sticking point, and ultimately it comes down to fundamentally different design. There will always be people that feel that the VEAT design got it right and that Kheldians were a failure. If you enjoy the VEAT design more or if you do not enjoy the way Khelds work, that is fine and it is no mark against you as a player, but it does not necessarily meant that there is a fundamental design flaw with the Kheldian ATs that requires a total revamp - it may just be that these ATs are not for you. |
the fundamental idea of EATs is fine and good. Hell, from my perspective, they share the same base idea that VEATs use, but they're victoms of time. they're so outdated, and need to be buffed in order to bring them back up to date and on par with everything else.
they don't need a rewrite overhaul. but i think we could all agree that they need buffing and that if they did do a complete overhaul while still keeping the same basic idea of khelds, that whatever they come up with would mesh much much more adequately and efficiently than it currently does while still keeping the same identify that khelds have.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
My problem with the light form change isn't that some sort of change wasn't needed, and isn't that it's too strong. My problem with it is that it was made without considering what it did to the forms, and that no further changes to the forms are likely to be forthcoming. Judging by the tone of Arbiter Hawk's post that you quoted, they're pretty happy with Peacebringers as they are.
Really? Because it had a 1.5 accuracy bonus before it was auto-hit. Adding a single accuracy SO gave it enough accuracy to land even under some of the worst debuffs in the game. Changing it to auto-hit was little more than a token. And I've never really had a problem with -end and -slow on dwarf, so I've never relied on them. I have conserve power and Dwarf's own +recovery for -end and I've always had hasten for -rech (Never mind the fact that we'll have access to Burnout when Freedom launches) and White Dwarf Step for -slow. I'm not sure why people are clamoring for those changes over psi/toxic resists, but whatever. I've never thought dwarf was a trap. The problems dwarf form encounters are easily mitigated with a little forethought and skill, but the limitations imposed upon it are a different story. They're there for a reason, but that reason is only valid if the limitations imposed on the other forms are observed. IMHO the limitations of human form have been broken without a whole lot of consideration towards the forms, so I wouldn't say no to anything that would improve dwarf and nova. |
As for what Arbiter Hawk is happy about, he seems content to leave us sit where we are for this issue and keep his eye on us. It's up to us to prove to him that further changes are needed. His tone in his posts suggests we will have to be quite persuasive, but everything I have heard from him suggest he is one to be cautious, so that does not mean anything.
The change to the taunt in Dwarf was a minor change, but it was a big boost to how well it tanks. Apparently you have never had the bad luck to be tanking for a team versus targets that have a lot of defense or -to hit. I have tanked for such teams against Nosferatu, Nemesis with Vengeance stacked, and Devouring Earth. Doing so was always an exercise in frustration, as I would start with aggro and see it slowly peel away as I could not hit mobs with my attacks or taunt. The change is not going to make Dwarf form blow a Tank out of the water, but it is going to make it a better and more reliable tank than it is now (and do better than human form in that regard).
As for the status resistance, again, you seem to have better luck than me. You fight a lot of Council as a Kheldian, and I always noticed how much they slowed me down. This is bad enough in the other forms, but in Dwarf (where you are supposed to get more aggro), it was quite easy to hardly see your powers recharging. And this is WITH a Winter's Gift -slow slotted. Same issue for end draining. I have had Freaks, Carnies, and Seers drain me out of Dwarf form when I was tanking for a team. End drain is extremely common in this game, and you WILL get hit by it if you are trying to tank well for your team.
Both effects are quite detrimental to you as a tanker/in tanker form, and such changes were seen as quite beneficial to tanking resist sets like Fiery and Dark. It would be the same for Dwarf form, and would provide further ways for that form to distinguish itself from Human form, which it needs currently. Nor would the changes overpower the form, just make it more competitive with existing resist sets, which is what Dwarf form is roughly modeled after (all resistance and a heal).
It was needed to -stack- with the forms, too? Atleast in Eclipse we needed enemies. Now Light form will soon be the best clicky in the game, damn near.
To make dwarf form closer in damage to other tanks is ridiculous. Who the hell would play tanks? Make do with being second best, but second best at EVERYTHING. You arent meant to be a "perfect" replacement for every class. |
I don't even know what to do with your last statement. Even if the ST damage in Dwarf form was improved so you could drop a boss in Dwarf form more quickly (or on par with tanks... and believe me, the two are nowhere close, now), people would still play tanks. As others have pointed out, your HP will still by higher as a tank, you'll have more powers at your disposal, you will have Bruising (-20 res on a target or two of your choosing), you will have an aura, etc. Plus, the two ATs play significantly different. As long as both are roughly equal, people will play one or the other because they like how one plays over the other. There is no need for Dwarf form to be significantly weaker than an actual tank for damage.
As it is, Dwarf Form does not compete with a regular Tanker at all (and I have a lot of Tanks... none of them are all that slow to defeat bosses, but Dwarf form is). Warshades can do okay for damage in Dwarf form if they have pets out, but their damage is still going to be weaker than tanks for ST damage. And against a hard target, it gets harder and harder to keep the fluffies out.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
We cannot be balanced against VEATs until either they get constant debuffing enemies in they're missions, (which I DO NOT suggest), or we get buffed to the point that the Void Stalkers and cysts aren't a game breaker.
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You just have to learn how to deal with the enemy, simple as that. A blaster learns how to deal with enemies who are melee-centric, a tanker learns how to fight psyonic enemies. I think it would be a lot more balanced if the Veats had their own enemies, basically an Arachanos Assassin sent to defeat you.
Even back when Quantums and Voids did unresistable damage and really could hurt Kheldians a lot, it was more than possible to fight and defeat them at low levels. Now, they're even easier to deal with. Just strike them first and hard, and you have most of the battle won.
My main gripe with Quantums and Voids, but especially Cysts, is that they frequently spawn where they should not. I should not see a Cyst on the Apex or Tin Mage TF, and I certainly should not see one "ambushing" with Director 11, as I once did on my Peacebringer. It fights against all the lore concerning the Cysts, not to mention most of the other groups in the game. "We're going to put a transport device with Nictus in their most fragile state with a group dedicated to controlling metahuman threats."
Rather than being interesting flavor, they're just about as often confusing and nonsensical for where they show up. I would have rather seen these mobs only be included in certain special missions, like the Kheldian story arcs, the ITF, etc., rather than how we see them now. If the tech could be improved to do it in a different way and better, I would be fine with that, but I would hazard to guess it is not easy, or would have been done a long time ago.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Even back when Quantums and Voids did unresistable damage and really could hurt Kheldians a lot, it was more than possible to fight and defeat them at low levels. Now, they're even easier to deal with. Just strike them first and hard, and you have most of the battle won.
My main gripe with Quantums and Voids, but especially Cysts, is that they frequently spawn where they should not. I should not see a Cyst on the Apex or Tin Mage TF, and I certainly should not see one "ambushing" with Director 11, as I once did on my Peacebringer. It fights against all the lore concerning the Cysts, not to mention most of the other groups in the game. "We're going to put a transport device with Nictus in their most fragile state with a group dedicated to controlling metahuman threats." ![]() Rather than being interesting flavor, they're just about as often confusing and nonsensical for where they show up. I would have rather seen these mobs only be included in certain special missions, like the Kheldian story arcs, the ITF, etc., rather than how we see them now. If the tech could be improved to do it in a different way and better, I would be fine with that, but I would hazard to guess it is not easy, or would have been done a long time ago. |
Chief Soldier's Inetlligence: Low
Quantum Gun: Inferior to Rikti Sword
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
It's quite true... mobs are often less deadly without the quantum guns.
Voids are actually a pain for most ATs. They have good resists and do good damage to anyone, to be honest. Still, they're no worse than a Rikti boss or something. It's the cysts that bother people most on master runs, and make the least sense for spawning in at random locations.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I don't really agree with this. VEATs were designed better. period. their powers make sense, you contribute to teams, you do good damage, you have a multitude of utilites at your disposal, you can play that 1 character many different ways, all 3 different specs for each VEAT meshs well with the others. this is not the entirely the case EATs. they can also do most of those things, they just don't do it nearly as well as a VEAT does.
the fundamental idea of EATs is fine and good. Hell, from my perspective, they share the same base idea that VEATs use, but they're victoms of time. they're so outdated, and need to be buffed in order to bring them back up to date and on par with everything else. they don't need a rewrite overhaul. but i think we could all agree that they need buffing and that if they did do a complete overhaul while still keeping the same basic idea of khelds, that whatever they come up with would mesh much much more adequately and efficiently than it currently does while still keeping the same identify that khelds have. |
The list of power choices could be condensed by splitting them up into Luminous Assault, Luminous Aura, White Nova and White Dwarf akin to what VEATs get and the form toggles would simply lock you out of the powers that don't fit. If you toggled on White Nova Form you would only access your powers from Luminous Assault and White Nova while the dwarf blocked White Nova and Luminous Aura. The tradeoff would be increased damage or surviability, obviously. Light Form could boost your buffing/healing and lock you out of White Nova and White Dwarf powers. Tech exists to have mutually exclusive power choices (Night Widows can pick Follow Up or Build Up but not both) so you could have the forms do pretty dramatic things if you really wanted to.
Banes and Night Widows are in some ways paladin-style close combat support but they don't got quite that flavour. Hey, know what would be a really cool power? A toggle PBAoE +regen buff. Would be great for a melee AT meant to help the team restore life.
Warshades as they are have a much stronger identity so they'd require less effort. Update the way the forms and power selection works and give them an Umbral Form as a counterpoint to Light Form. Maybe it enhances your control powers. Dark Nova could give you secondary effects to your attacks to weaken the enemy in interesting and relevant ways instead of White Nova's more honest +damage. A Corrupter instead of a Blaster.
There's a lot you can do if you move away from the rigid shapeshifting and apply some more modern sensibilities to Kheldians. They could be really awesome. They've got the visuals for it.
There's a lot you can do if you move away from the rigid shapeshifting and apply some more modern sensibilities to Kheldians. They could be really awesome. They've got the visuals for it.
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Sadly, the overly vocal minority (evil people, mostly, but still very influential) would oppose a real revamp of the kheldian ATs, even if the overall result ended up positive. Moreso with the upcoming changes to lightform allowing for perma capped resistances. We're looking at old Psychic Shockwave doms all over again - grindfest for 38 levels, after which you're all but invincible.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Revamp, revamp, revamp - bah. Give the option to turn KB into KD, and I'd be fine with PBs. Foot Stomp makes anything enjoyable.
Hmm.
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The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]