The Problem with Power

Large amounts of -end are possibly the only thing that scares me on my warshade. Extra recovery on Lightform and reduced costs from Conserve Power might make this less of a problem for pb's though (mine still burns through end like mad )

Anyone who wants to be tougher: tankers have a higher resistance cap (5% can make a large difference); tankers have an extra 3/4 base hp, and an extra 1/2 hp at cap, unless paragonwiki hasn't been updated, in which case the discrepancy is larger; tankers have significantly higher regen because of the higher hp; many tankers get some sort of debuff protection.

Anyone who wants to hold aggro better: Dwarf taunt, autohit or not, is lightyears behind gauntlet.

Anyone who wants to increase the whole team's damage with a resistance debuff in their tier 1: 'nuff said.

Anyone who wants to be that tough but play a defense set, or a weapon set, or have extra AoE's.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I don't really agree with this. VEATs were designed better. period. their powers make sense, you contribute to teams, you do good damage, you have a multitude of utilites at your disposal, you can play that 1 character many different ways, all 3 different specs for each VEAT meshs well with the others. this is not the entirely the case EATs. they can also do most of those things, they just don't do it nearly as well as a VEAT does.

the fundamental idea of EATs is fine and good. Hell, from my perspective, they share the same base idea that VEATs use, but they're victoms of time. they're so outdated, and need to be buffed in order to bring them back up to date and on par with everything else.

they don't need a rewrite overhaul. but i think we could all agree that they need buffing and that if they did do a complete overhaul while still keeping the same basic idea of khelds, that whatever they come up with would mesh much much more adequately and efficiently than it currently does while still keeping the same identify that khelds have.

I never said Dwarf form was a trap, and I have no clue what Arbiter Hawk thinks of how well our forms work now. I would agree that they both could use a little help and have always agreed with that premise when we talked about it in the beta forums.

As for what Arbiter Hawk is happy about, he seems content to leave us sit where we are for this issue and keep his eye on us. It's up to us to prove to him that further changes are needed. His tone in his posts suggests we will have to be quite persuasive, but everything I have heard from him suggest he is one to be cautious, so that does not mean anything.

The change to the taunt in Dwarf was a minor change, but it was a big boost to how well it tanks. Apparently you have never had the bad luck to be tanking for a team versus targets that have a lot of defense or -to hit. I have tanked for such teams against Nosferatu, Nemesis with Vengeance stacked, and Devouring Earth. Doing so was always an exercise in frustration, as I would start with aggro and see it slowly peel away as I could not hit mobs with my attacks or taunt. The change is not going to make Dwarf form blow a Tank out of the water, but it is going to make it a better and more reliable tank than it is now (and do better than human form in that regard).

As for the status resistance, again, you seem to have better luck than me. You fight a lot of Council as a Kheldian, and I always noticed how much they slowed me down. This is bad enough in the other forms, but in Dwarf (where you are supposed to get more aggro), it was quite easy to hardly see your powers recharging. And this is WITH a Winter's Gift -slow slotted. Same issue for end draining. I have had Freaks, Carnies, and Seers drain me out of Dwarf form when I was tanking for a team. End drain is extremely common in this game, and you WILL get hit by it if you are trying to tank well for your team.

Both effects are quite detrimental to you as a tanker/in tanker form, and such changes were seen as quite beneficial to tanking resist sets like Fiery and Dark. It would be the same for Dwarf form, and would provide further ways for that form to distinguish itself from Human form, which it needs currently. Nor would the changes overpower the form, just make it more competitive with existing resist sets, which is what Dwarf form is roughly modeled after (all resistance and a heal).

Be realistic, now. Before this change, Eclipse was one of the best tier 9 defense set powers in the game. Light Form, on the other hand, was far weaker in comparison. With the change, the two are now roughly balanced, with different cons and pros to them that balance out. Eclipse's drawback is that it needs to target enemies first, it's positive mainly being that it can easily gain a lot of resistance (beyond what Light Form can offer). Light Form's drawback is that it has a significant crash, but its positive is that it is just a click power.

I don't even know what to do with your last statement. Even if the ST damage in Dwarf form was improved so you could drop a boss in Dwarf form more quickly (or on par with tanks... and believe me, the two are nowhere close, now), people would still play tanks. As others have pointed out, your HP will still by higher as a tank, you'll have more powers at your disposal, you will have Bruising (-20 res on a target or two of your choosing), you will have an aura, etc. Plus, the two ATs play significantly different. As long as both are roughly equal, people will play one or the other because they like how one plays over the other. There is no need for Dwarf form to be significantly weaker than an actual tank for damage.

As it is, Dwarf Form does not compete with a regular Tanker at all (and I have a lot of Tanks... none of them are all that slow to defeat bosses, but Dwarf form is). Warshades can do okay for damage in Dwarf form if they have pets out, but their damage is still going to be weaker than tanks for ST damage. And against a hard target, it gets harder and harder to keep the fluffies out.

For me, voids, quants ect, are only game breakers until about level 18. At that level i get either Incandescent strike or Gravity well, depending on your AT. With ONE hit of I.S or G.W a void's health is already at 50% or less, at that point they're not a threat either because they are either stunned or held...

You just have to learn how to deal with the enemy, simple as that. A blaster learns how to deal with enemies who are melee-centric, a tanker learns how to fight psyonic enemies. I think it would be a lot more balanced if the Veats had their own enemies, basically an Arachanos Assassin sent to defeat you.

Heh. And when I see a Dark Mistress or a Rikti Chief Soldier carrying a quantum rifle, I just LAUGH and laugh.

Chief Soldier's Inetlligence: Low
Quantum Gun: Inferior to Rikti Sword

If a more major overhaul was in order I would want Peacebringers to have a melee buffer feel to them. Mez protection, some simple resistance-based shield and enough PBAoE +res and +regen buffs to attain decent survivability while buffing the team. The shapeshifting powers could be redone to simply give you a tentacled or armour-plated energy aura as appropriate.

The list of power choices could be condensed by splitting them up into Luminous Assault, Luminous Aura, White Nova and White Dwarf akin to what VEATs get and the form toggles would simply lock you out of the powers that don't fit. If you toggled on White Nova Form you would only access your powers from Luminous Assault and White Nova while the dwarf blocked White Nova and Luminous Aura. The tradeoff would be increased damage or surviability, obviously. Light Form could boost your buffing/healing and lock you out of White Nova and White Dwarf powers. Tech exists to have mutually exclusive power choices (Night Widows can pick Follow Up or Build Up but not both) so you could have the forms do pretty dramatic things if you really wanted to.

Banes and Night Widows are in some ways paladin-style close combat support but they don't got quite that flavour. Hey, know what would be a really cool power? A toggle PBAoE +regen buff. Would be great for a melee AT meant to help the team restore life.

Warshades as they are have a much stronger identity so they'd require less effort. Update the way the forms and power selection works and give them an Umbral Form as a counterpoint to Light Form. Maybe it enhances your control powers. Dark Nova could give you secondary effects to your attacks to weaken the enemy in interesting and relevant ways instead of White Nova's more honest +damage. A Corrupter instead of a Blaster.


There's a lot you can do if you move away from the rigid shapeshifting and apply some more modern sensibilities to Kheldians. They could be really awesome. They've got the visuals for it.

And lore.

Sadly, the overly vocal minority (evil people, mostly, but still very influential) would oppose a real revamp of the kheldian ATs, even if the overall result ended up positive. Moreso with the upcoming changes to lightform allowing for perma capped resistances. We're looking at old Psychic Shockwave doms all over again - grindfest for 38 levels, after which you're all but invincible.

I couldn't disagree more. The only thing I liked about my PB was how well he performed in the levels below 40 compared to everyone else. He's been deleted twice now after level 35 because Light Form just wasn't enough to keep up with everyone else. I expect these changes are all I need to be able to actually stick with the PB this time.