Maybe the Peacebringers (who don't play Warshades) will stop whining now. 
Nice work.
(The main problem I've come across when I've tried to relay the consistency of Peacebringer survivability vs. Warshade survivability in the Beta thread is that some of those folks seem to be under the impression that Eclipse carries No Risk at all, and can always be fully saturated, all the time. This is how they really feel- They refuse to accept that Eclipse is a situational power, so they will continue to whine. Just thought I'd put that out there..)
Well, I'd say from the IO perspective they are doing quite well, survival-wise. The damage difference is beyond pathetic, though. It runs into the same problem as Smiling Joe's SO builds: photon seekers just aren't performing. It's reasonable for an IO'd shade to keep 3 damage-ED capped fluffies out on their own, and while they don't last long against seriously hard targets, that gives the Warshade a ~130 dps lead over the pb's. This is even with Achilles procs slotted in the pb chain. If it weren't for reactive's interaction with Orbiting death, though, the pb would do a little better than the ws with one pet.
The warshade build I'm using is overperforming a bit on damage though 
, as in with 3.3 pets it theoretically does more damage than my db/elec scrapper (in the pylon thread). Don't have a pylon number yet as the stupid fluffies dive-bomb the pylons and die.
If pb's some how magically had a damage aura to use with reactive (*cough* change group fly into a gravity-reversing damage aura), the damage difference would be much less. Still, it's all photon seekers fault 
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Heh, your analysis shows that Peacebringers have much more consistent survivability for sure. Do you know what the DPS difference is between Warshades and Peacebringers against a single target, with no opportunity for fluffies? |
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Well, I'd say from the IO perspective they are doing quite well, survival-wise. The damage difference is beyond pathetic, though. It runs into the same problem as Smiling Joe's SO builds: photon seekers just aren't performing. It's reasonable for an IO'd shade to keep 3 damage-ED capped fluffies out on their own, and while they don't last long against seriously hard targets, that gives the Warshade a ~130 dps lead over the pb's. This is even with Achilles procs slotted in the pb chain. If it weren't for reactive's interaction with Orbiting death, though, the pb would do a little better than the ws with one pet.
The warshade build I'm using is overperforming a bit on damage though , as in with 3.3 pets it theoretically does more damage than my db/elec scrapper (in the pylon thread). Don't have a pylon number yet as the stupid fluffies dive-bomb the pylons and die.If pb's some how magically had a damage aura to use with reactive (*cough* change group fly into a gravity-reversing damage aura), the damage difference would be much less. Still, it's all photon seekers fault |
It seems like Peacebringers should be doing less damage than Warshades when the Warshade is in its' niche (surrounded by bodies) but that it should also be doing more damage when Warshades have no fodder. Still though, the gap should be much smaller.
(The way you talk up Orbiting Death + reactive and the optimal Human Form attack chain, you make me want to spec into a Human Only build on my Warshade. >< Something else I've noticed when teaming with Human Form Warshades is that the combination of orbiting death + Inky Aspect seems to do a good job of keeping aggro off fluffies consistently. Add provoke into the mix and wow.)
Quote:
With no fluffy opportunities the pb is stronger by about 20 dps.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Heh, your analysis shows that Peacebringers have much more consistent survivability for sure. Do you know what the DPS difference is between Warshades and Peacebringers against a single target, with no opportunity for fluffies?
It seems like Peacebringers should be doing less damage than Warshades when the Warshade is in its' niche (surrounded by bodies) but that it should also be doing more damage when Warshades have no fodder. Still though, the gap should be much smaller. (The way you talk up Orbiting Death + reactive and the optimal Human Form attack chain, you make me want to spec into a Human Only build on my Warshade. >< Something else I've noticed when teaming with Human Form Warshades is that the combination of orbiting death + Inky Aspect seems to do a good job of keeping aggro off fluffies consistently. Add provoke into the mix and wow.) |
Hold off on the respec until I can test. I'm 99% sure it is functioning the way I have it, but there is still that 1%.
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Question: if you won't post numbers, and you won't post builds, and you won't post formulas, just how are your figures supposed to be checked? Are we just supposed to take your word for it?|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
So in the process of creating new builds for my pb for i21 changes, I decided to compare max sustained survival on maxed-out IO builds between pb's and ws's. We don't balance around IO's, so the following is in no way indicative of SO performance or standard play in anyway. In order not to inadvertently color anyone's opinions, I am not listing actual numbers, just the relationship between the two as per the absolute best builds I can muster. I will not be posting builds either
 The relationships will change build-by-build, this is just how they are with mine.A few notes: -This is not including Rebirth, as that is a major pain to calculate, but it definitely would favor the pb with much higher hit points. Spiritual boosting recharge and heal for both. -This is in human form so the WS can make use of its shields and tough to help when Eclipse hits too few to cap itself. The PB caps with just Lightform, so it does not include shields. -Both have the same defense %'s. -The WS includes essence drain as part of its attack chain, so its heal is added in. -Where Stygian Circle is listed, it's assumed that x number of minion-level corpse(s) will constantly be available. -All these numbers are against s/l. Other damage types besides psi will favor the pb until Eclipse hits enough to cap. Psi will favor Eclipse always, obviously. -Builds are perma-Eclipse and perma-Lightform. -Lightform's crash is included. Comparison: ws w/one eclipse and shields/tough: pb can take nearly 4x as much s/l damage as the ws, even more against other damage types. +1 stygian: pb more than 2x against s/l +2 stygian: pb more than 1.5x against s/l +3 stygian: pb 1.24x +4 stygian: pb = ws +5(max health everytime) stygain: pb 0.86x ws ws w/2+ eclipse targets (cap s/l; e/n/f/c require 3+): pb 1.86x s/l +1 stygian: pb 1.07x s/l +2 stygian: pb .75x +3 stygian: pb .58x +4 stygian: pb .47x +5(max health everytime) stygian: pb .40x Max discrepancy shows the Pb doing nearly 4 times better when facing a single target with no corpses and the Ws doing theoretically 2.5 times better when Eclipse-capped and gaining full health everytime stygian circle is recharged. ("Theoretically" because that assumes the warshade hits 1 hp exactly when it hits stygian circle). Interesting, no? What are you guys getting? Just to add, from the extremely rough way I calculate the fluffies with reactive, damage-wise I get this for single target in human form: No ws pets, pb greater by ~20dps 1 ws pets, ws greater by ~30dps 2 ws pets, ws greater by ~80dps 3 ws pets, ws greater by ~130dps Max possible ws pets (recharge cap), ws greater by ~170dps |
Having said that, however, it meshes pretty well with the numbers I've gotten:
Max Survivable DPS 1 Foe:
WS Human: 99 PB Human: 165
WS Dwarf: 345 PB Dwarf: 331
WS Nova: 82 PB Nova: 106
Max Survivable DPS 10 Foes:
WS Human: 876 PB Human: 165
WS Dwarf: 1506 PB Dwarf: 331
WS Nova: 868 PB Nova: 106
So does this mean that you're convinced the two are balanced, now?
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Maybe the Peacebringers (who don't play Warshades) will stop whining now.
Nice work. (The main problem I've come across when I've tried to relay the consistency of Peacebringer survivability vs. Warshade survivability in the Beta thread is that some of those folks seem to be under the impression that Eclipse carries No Risk at all, and can always be fully saturated, all the time. This is how they really feel- They refuse to accept that Eclipse is a situational power, so they will continue to whine. Just thought I'd put that out there..) |
For the record, I may favor Peacebringers, but I play both. None of the Peacebringers were "whining" about eclipse in the beta thread to which you're referring. Granted, Flux Vector could have kept a civil tongue in his head, but for the most part posts by Peacebringer players are fairly well in agreement that Light Form really doesn't need to get any stronger. In fact, about the only complaints I saw were (1) that people (myself included) will miss the animation quite a bit (but not enough to want the old LF back) and (2) that the new LF actually does too much for human form. Well, okay. That last one is mostly me.
Also, where exactly did you argue that it was balanced? The comparisons between the two kicked off with Microcosm saying:
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| I'd like to add that, after seeing it in beta, I agree the resistance on the new lightform should be lowered a bit (regardless of putting defense in the shields or not). Eclipse needs to remain stronger, as a more dangerous power to use, a power which can't be used preemptively, and a power without mez protection. I don't feel Lightform's crash is a good enough tradeoff. |
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| I'm with Microcosm on that one. |
To which I still say you're wrong. You seem to be insisting on comparing the two powers in a vacuum. Taken out of context with the remainder of their respective power sets, you'd have a point, but you have stacking stuns, positioning knockback (as opposed to the more random 360 degree kind), stealth and dwarf form - all of which combine to make the risk posed by eclipse 100 percent mitigatable.
Just like Light Form's crash.
Honestly, I don't know why some Peacebringer players get so hung up on the crash. You look up at your bar from time to time, and when you see the buff icon blinking you hit conserve power and jump out of the spawn. A single small blue and an essence boost later and you're back in and swinging.
In other words - what I maintained there and what I still maintain is that the two powers are roughly balanced. Now I do feel that Light Form benefits human form too much (to the exclusion of dwarf form entirely IMO).
So watch who you're callin' a whiner, mister. Kheldians have enough problems without all the sniping between WS and PB factions. Yes, you might have to take the high road with some people. But if we all stick together it's worth it.
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|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Just because you put it in a smaller font doesn't mean Peacebringer players can't read it. I'm old, but my eyesight's not gone yet.
For the record, I may favor Peacebringers, but I play both. None of the Peacebringers were "whining" about eclipse in the beta thread to which you're referring. Granted, Flux Vector could have kept a civil tongue in his head, but for the most part posts by Peacebringer players are fairly well in agreement that Light Form really doesn't need to get any stronger. In fact, about the only complaints I saw were (1) that people (myself included) will miss the animation quite a bit (but not enough to want the old LF back) and (2) that the new LF actually does too much for human form. Well, okay. That last one is mostly me. Also, where exactly did you argue that it was balanced? The comparisons between the two kicked off with Microcosm saying: ...and you saying: The more I read, the more I see where you in fact argued that Light Form was actually too strong, because Eclipse was so situational and put you in enough danger to use. To which I still say you're wrong. You seem to be insisting on comparing the two powers in a vacuum. Taken out of context with the remainder of their respective power sets, you'd have a point, but you have stacking stuns, positioning knockback (as opposed to the more random 360 degree kind), stealth and dwarf form - all of which combine to make the risk posed by eclipse 100 percent mitigatable. Just like Light Form's crash. Honestly, I don't know why some Peacebringer players get so hung up on the crash. You look up at your bar from time to time, and when you see the buff icon blinking you hit conserve power and jump out of the spawn. A single small blue and an essence boost later and you're back in and swinging. In other words - what I maintained there and what I still maintain is that the two powers are roughly balanced. Now I do feel that Light Form benefits human form too much (to the exclusion of dwarf form entirely IMO). So watch who you're callin' a whiner, mister. Kheldians have enough problems without all the sniping between WS and PB factions. Yes, you might have to take the high road with some people. But if we all stick together it's worth it. |
I was pretty much entirely referring to one person, my comment wasn't directed at you in the least.
I don't think the new Light Form is too strong, I just don't entirely like how it works. In my opinion, it should provide enough resistance to everything including Psi that all resists can be capped at 85% with the use of shields or Dwarf form. I don't think it should allow you to cap all resists with the click of a button, the crash isn't a big enough penalty for a power like that.. Like you said, it's a breeze to recover from.
(By the way, is conserve power going to have a purpose on a perma-LF build? I thought LF itself provided the same recovery bonus or similar to conserve power, so if it can be run all the time is there a reason to have both powers?)
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Agreed, but I think at this point further changes to Photon Seekers are just not going to happen, so I've all but given up hope on that front.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
If pb's some how magically had a damage aura to use with reactive (*cough* change group fly into a gravity-reversing damage aura), the damage difference would be much less. Still, it's all photon seekers fault
|
I'd love to have a damage aura somewhere, but frankly I don't think it's going to happen either, mainly because - as you noted a thread or two down - Peacebringers flat-out outdamage Warshades outside of the pets, even before the changes in Build Up.
The change to Build Up, in fact, is one of the changes that boggles my mind. I'm not complaining, but it was completely unnecessary. Build Up was one of those powers that worked JUST FINE as it was, the only complaint being that it didn't give enough to the forms. IMHO that would have been better addressed by reducing the animation time of the forms, but if they're daft enough to make it what it is now I'm selfish enough to take it.
It doesn't close the gap between PB's and WS's all that much (as I predicted it wouldn't before closed beta even started) but it's likely as good as we can expect, for the time being.
The most I'd hope for is a reason to take dwarf again.
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Conserve Power doesn't offer a recovery bonus, it offers an endurance discount. One of the aspects of LF's crash is that it carries a hefty -recovery component. Or at least, it did. I haven't thought to check before - I'll have to check tonight on beta.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I was pretty much entirely referring to one person, my comment wasn't directed at you in the least.
I don't think the new Light Form is too strong, I just don't entirely like how it works. In my opinion, it should provide enough resistance to everything including Psi that all resists can be capped at 85% with the use of shields or Dwarf form. I don't think it should allow you to cap all resists with the click of a button, the crash isn't a big enough penalty for a power like that.. Like you said, it's a breeze to recover from. (By the way, is conserve power going to have a purpose on a perma-LF build? I thought LF itself provided the same recovery bonus or similar to conserve power, so if it can be run all the time is there a reason to have both powers?) |
If it still does (and I can't imagine why in hell they would remove it) then you will need to keep conserve power in your build, because even though the crash won't let you recover end naturally for a time, you can still gain end from inspirations and outside buffs. Using Conserve Power right after popping a blue insp will completely negate the -recovery.
And don't worry about offending me. I probably should have included the little winky emote on the last part of my post above, but I like to use those sparingly. They kind of annoy me.
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Quote:
Yup, which also means you can completely discount it if you want. Checking should come from others doing something similar and roughly corroborating or contradicting with what I've got. The reasons are (A) I spend hours upon hours on my personal builds, and I hate the idea that someone might just copy one; (B) these builds are not indicative of 'normal' and are not to be balanced around as IO builds, I'd rather the devs and everyone else look to your master-SO spreadsheets for real balance; (C) see 'A.'|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Question: if you won't post numbers, and you won't post builds, and you won't post formulas, just how are your figures supposed to be checked? Are we just supposed to take your word for it?
|
Formulas are fine though. Survivable dps is measured as:
(Total average HP regained/second) / [(Enemy Chance Tohit)*(1-%Resistance)]
For example, if a build averaged 15hp/sec with heals included and had resistance capped it would be: 15/(.5*.15) = 200 dps to the given damage type.
I don't have to worry about uptime vs downtime as eclipse and lightform are perma.
Quote:
| Having said that, however, it meshes pretty well with the numbers I've gotten: |
Quote:
| So does this mean that you're convinced the two are balanced, now? |
Quote:
| Granted, Flux Vector could have kept a civil tongue in his head |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
In my opinion, it should provide enough resistance to everything including Psi that all resists can be capped at 85% with the use of shields or Dwarf form. I don't think it should allow you to cap all resists with the click of a button, the crash isn't a big enough penalty for a power like that.. Like you said, it's a breeze to recover from.
|
Quote:
| (By the way, is conserve power going to have a purpose on a perma-LF build? I thought LF itself provided the same recovery bonus or similar to conserve power, so if it can be run all the time is there a reason to have both powers?) |
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I personally kept my conserve for when im about crash.. or for emergency power..|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I was pretty much entirely referring to one person, my comment wasn't directed at you in the least.
I don't think the new Light Form is too strong, I just don't entirely like how it works. In my opinion, it should provide enough resistance to everything including Psi that all resists can be capped at 85% with the use of shields or Dwarf form. I don't think it should allow you to cap all resists with the click of a button, the crash isn't a big enough penalty for a power like that.. Like you said, it's a breeze to recover from. (By the way, is conserve power going to have a purpose on a perma-LF build? I thought LF itself provided the same recovery bonus or similar to conserve power, so if it can be run all the time is there a reason to have both powers?) |
But i think light form takes care of end for us completly.. espiecially pve side.. you never will have to carry a blue again.. First rebirth then this.. getting closer and closer to regen
.. lets home the next couple of incarnate powers give us a regen toggle
Freedom:
Iron-Blade 50kat/invul Iron Ascension 50trifpb Cinder Reborn 50fire/kin Zaha'doom 50triws Cindered Stones 50fire/ston ColdFusion 35 ice/rad Iron Ash 50 Fir/WP
Iron Wind km/regen Iron Static elec/reg Psy Entity 50 psy/dev Iron-Assassin 50 nin/nin
Yeah - I was mistaken - I was thinking of Dawn Strike. Light Form doesn't - and never has - hit you with -recovery.
SO yeah. Conserve Power is strictly optional with the new changes.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
I believe you called me 'disingenuous' as well, actually
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I do believe I did. In retrospect, that was more than a little harsh, and you have my apologies.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
And don't worry about offending me. I probably should have included the little winky emote on the last part of my post above, but I like to use those sparingly. They kind of annoy me.
|
Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure it was known that I play a Peacebringer too, very often, so any PB stabs I take should be read as self deprecating and lighthearted.
Quote:
No worries, I know you love me |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I do believe I did. In retrospect, that was more than a little harsh, and you have my apologies.
|
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Well, I have an all human PB build that I will try taking out of retirement when all this hits.
So, I'd like to sit at close to cap resist (85%) when I hit the new lightform in all non-psi areas, so that means I'll have and use all the shields. What kinds of slotting are we looking at for the Shields and Lightform for that to happen? Will I need to get Tough to max out S/L resist?
btw, Love that lightform isn't turning us into the glowing puffball anymore - what can I say, I make character costumes for a reason, and hate having them disappear.
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You won't need the shields with fully slotted lightform. I've got a full set of impervium armor in it which almost caps resistance by itself; the small amount still needed for s/l/f/c is made up with set bonuses, and for e/n incandescence will cover you.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
Well, I have an all human PB build that I will try taking out of retirement when all this hits.
So, I'd like to sit at close to cap resist (85%) when I hit the new lightform in all non-psi areas, so that means I'll have and use all the shields. What kinds of slotting are we looking at for the Shields and Lightform for that to happen? Will I need to get Tough to max out S/L resist? btw, Love that lightform isn't turning us into the glowing puffball anymore - what can I say, I make character costumes for a reason, and hate having them disappear. |
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That glowing puffball is the Lightform. And as such, since we are no longer stuck in that form, the title of the power should be changed from Lightform to something else...once again I submit, "Resplendence."|
Originally Posted by Socorro
...Love that lightform isn't turning us into the glowing puffball anymore - what can I say, I make character costumes for a reason, and hate having them disappear.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
You won't need the shields with fully slotted lightform. I've got a full set of impervium armor in it which almost caps resistance by itself; the small amount still needed for s/l/f/c is made up with set bonuses, and for e/n incandescence will cover you.
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Namely, lower the resistance numbers the power gives but allow it to give resistance to Psionic damage as well.
The numbers should be lowered enough so as not to render the three Human Shields and Dwarf Form unnecessary to reach resistance caps.
Can I get a second on this???
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You already did:|
Originally Posted by AIB
And this is precisely the reason why the devs should do something more along the line of what I (and some others) have suggested...
Namely, lower the resistance numbers the power gives but allow it to give resistance to Psionic damage as well. The numbers should be lowered enough so as not to render the three Human Shields and Dwarf Form unnecessary to reach resistance caps. Can I get a second on this??? |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I was pretty much entirely referring to one person, my comment wasn't directed at you in the least.
I don't think the new Light Form is too strong, I just don't entirely like how it works. In my opinion, it should provide enough resistance to everything including Psi that all resists can be capped at 85% with the use of shields or Dwarf form. I don't think it should allow you to cap all resists with the click of a button, the crash isn't a big enough penalty |
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Originally Posted by AIB
Can I get a second on this???
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You already did:
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It has been properly moved and seconded that we lower the resistance numbers on lightform in order for it to also provide an equal amount of psi resistance.
All in favor please say Aye...
Aye!
TL ; DR version: Give us -LESS- resistance. Give us something we can use.
The inherent, the shields, the godmode, and the Dwarf form all compete to give us capped resistance, such that in most situations most of these powers are wasted (at the moment, Light Form is by far the most attractive option, since it offers everything without requiring massive slot investment).
PB and WS powers need to be reformulated so that they cannot cap their own resistance without even trying. The inherent needs to be less intense (such that we're still competent when solo, and not completely wasting +res while teamed). And +resistance support from teammates would become useful.
WS powers need to be reformulated so that a proportion of their capped +damage is added into the powers directly. The resulting DPS for perma-whatever builds should remain the same, but non-perma builds would be much more viable. And while teamed, WSs would actually gain a benefit from a teammates +damage support.
For PBs for example, if Light Form were to grant Defence like Moment of Glory, it would be a useful godmode over and above our already high resistance. I would happily sacrifice the +resistance component entirely for this, and have the duration reduced such that it can't be made perma.
And in my opinion, PBs need to deal -more- damage than WSs. Warshades bring to a team some controller-y aspects. PBs bring.. PBAoE KB.
OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
Personally I think Eclipse should continue to function as it does already, and LF should function as AIB and I have suggested. The resistance toggles should not go to waste on a PB because they should be required to cap resists.
As for the inherent, I would like to see it offer different types of status protection in lieu of +damage and +resistance for Warshades- ie: Melee's give you hold and stun protection, ranged gives you slow and sleep protection, control and support gives you endurance and defense debuff protection? This isn't an exact proposal, just an outline. (The last part would be negated to an extent if Dwarf received -end protection, but would still be useful for human formers.)
For Peacebringers, the inherent should continue to offer some route for +damage since they are not able to cap that on their own. I would like to see their inherent provide a route for more extra status protection also, though.... But to a lesser degree due to the Light Form changes.
With the LF proposal AIB and I just mentioned, we are still left with a lack of viable use for resistance toggles on a Warshade... Though taking them can still be justified to be used in situations where there are not enough enemies for a fully saturated Eclipse and the player doesn't have Dwarf form.
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To this i would say no, for entirely selfish reasons: it is much easier to add defense to your high resistance through IOs than the other way around. I very much like my capped resistance.
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Originally Posted by oreso
For PBs for example, if Light Form were to grant Defence like Moment of Glory, it would be a useful godmode over and above our already high resistance. I would happily sacrifice the +resistance component entirely for this, and have the duration reduced such that it can't be made perma. |
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they still would be anyway due to the inherent. hell both dwarfs can cap res without light form or eclipse with minimal slotting and CB/DS|
And this is precisely the reason why the devs should do something more along the line of what I (and some others) have suggested... Namely, lower the resistance numbers the power gives but allow it to give resistance to Psionic damage as well. The numbers should be lowered enough so as not to render the three Human Shields and Dwarf Form unnecessary to reach resistance caps. |
if you were to do this along with change either the shields or the inherent to give something else then maybe. but doing one without the other would render this change very meh.
personally i'm for keeping both they way they are now, giving dwarf psi res (while leaving that out of LF and taking it out of eclipse) and increasing the HP buff/cap to keep dwarfs relevant (maybe some more slow res but not necessary)along with reducing the res value the shields give and giving it a defense or mez component.
that way you change both ATs without having to drastically change either power(save eclipse's psi res subtraction) while attaining the same goal
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Wow...so with the right slotting the New Lightform alone could get you to pretty much cap resist...
That's interesting
And I'm utterly astounded that some of you are suggesting this should be nerfed!!
Overpowered? Who cares? I don't think so, but even if it is, for the first time ever, PBs might be slightly overpowered in a tiny niche area.
Lamenting that you won't need the shields? Why? I'll now forego the shields completely, and concentrate on getting my damage, recharge, and defense, and endurance management up there. Maybe I can at least get in the ballpark of upper level excellence some of my other maxed characters are.
So in the process of creating new builds for my pb for i21 changes, I decided to compare max sustained survival on maxed-out IO builds between pb's and ws's. We don't balance around IO's, so the following is in no way indicative of SO performance or standard play in anyway. In order not to inadvertently color anyone's opinions, I am not listing actual numbers, just the relationship between the two as per the absolute best builds I can muster. I will not be posting builds either
The relationships will change build-by-build, this is just how they are with mine.
A few notes:
-This is not including Rebirth, as that is a major pain to calculate, but it definitely would favor the pb with much higher hit points. Spiritual boosting recharge and heal for both.
-This is in human form so the WS can make use of its shields and tough to help when Eclipse hits too few to cap itself. The PB caps with just Lightform, so it does not include shields.
-Both have the same defense %'s.
-The WS includes essence drain as part of its attack chain, so its heal is added in.
-Where Stygian Circle is listed, it's assumed that x number of minion-level corpse(s) will constantly be available.
-All these numbers are against s/l. Other damage types besides psi will favor the pb until Eclipse hits enough to cap. Psi will favor Eclipse always, obviously.
-Builds are perma-Eclipse and perma-Lightform.
-Lightform's crash is included.
Comparison:
ws w/one eclipse and shields/tough: pb can take nearly 4x as much s/l damage as the ws, even more against other damage types.
+1 stygian: pb more than 2x against s/l
+2 stygian: pb more than 1.5x against s/l
+3 stygian: pb 1.24x
+4 stygian: pb = ws
+5(max health everytime) stygain: pb 0.86x ws
ws w/2+ eclipse targets (cap s/l; e/n/f/c require 3+): pb 1.86x s/l
+1 stygian: pb 1.07x s/l
+2 stygian: pb .75x
+3 stygian: pb .58x
+4 stygian: pb .47x
+5(max health everytime) stygian: pb .40x
Max discrepancy shows the Pb doing nearly 4 times better when facing a single target with no corpses and the Ws doing theoretically 2.5 times better when Eclipse-capped and gaining full health everytime stygian circle is recharged. ("Theoretically" because that assumes the warshade hits 1 hp exactly when it hits stygian circle).
Interesting, no? What are you guys getting?
Just to add, from the extremely rough way I calculate the fluffies with reactive, damage-wise I get this for single target in human form:
No ws pets, pb greater by ~20dps
1 ws pets, ws greater by ~30dps
2 ws pets, ws greater by ~80dps
3 ws pets, ws greater by ~130dps
Max possible ws pets (recharge cap), ws greater by ~170dps
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