LuxunS

This is a lot to cover, and I don't have the time before I leave work to do it. I'll toss out some general concepts and someone else will probably come in and correct it or fill the gaps.

In CoH many stats are interchangeable. The simple example of this is the defense soft-cap. It's considered a soft-cap because at 45% defense a lvl 50 minion will have 5% chance to hit you, which is the to-hit chance floor. Regardless of how much defense you have the chance to hit will never go below 5%.

The opposing stat for defense is to-hit. Effectively defense and -to-hit do the same thing. Example.

A SR scrapper with 45% defense is at the soft-cap.
A dark defender that uses a slotted darkest night and fearsome stare on a mob (-25%+ -27% to-hit) is also effectively at the defense soft-cap.

While not actually having any defense the to-hit debuffs lower the mobs chance to hit to the lowest amount possible.

As far as stacking goes, most (if not all) debuffs do not stack from the same caster. I don't have time to double check this, but i'm almost positive. Same goes for most buffs, with a few exceptions. Thinks like Clear Mind are stackable, but Force Fields are not (with the exception of zoning being considered a different caster). So, a Poison MM can't stack Envenom on a target, 2 poison MMs can both use theirs once.

As far as I know there is no diminished returns outside of pvp, or hard/soft-caps. Example.
If you're up against a mob with 10% resistance and have a rad on your team that uses enervating field. The mob now has -30% resistance.

Things like this can come in handy for creating optimal team makeups. Say you're a scrapper and you want to do the most damage possible. A kin is a good option because fulcrum shift can put you at your +damage cap. But you still have a higher damage potential. +damage and -resistance are interchangeable. So, if a rad is added to the team that uses enervating field for -resistance on the mobs your damage goes up! This is why support heavy teams are significantly more powerful then most other team makeups.

One other thing to note. While things like defense and -to-hit are interchangeable, for high end things like soloing AVs you have to take the purple patch into consideration. AVs have scaling resistances for many stats based on their level. At level 50 AVs have 85% resistance to -RunSpeed, -Recharge, -Endurance, -ToHit, -Defense, -Perception, -Regeneration, and -Recovery. In the example with the dark defender above doing -52% to-hit with fearsome stare and darkest night, against a 50 AV that number is reduced to -7.8%. That puts them way below the soft-cap and explains why in high end cases its not the best option.

Either way that statement says "Taunt res is broken". If someone has no taunt duration enhancements in the power against someone with assault/double assault its going to last the full duration. At minimum its going to last the full base duration regardless of the person's resistance or the taunter's slotting. Taunt has a base 10 second duration and recharge. Even unenhanced for duration, its easy to slot recharge to get the power below 5 seconds. That means that barring a person's evasion skill its possible to keep them at -150% range and stuck on a single target an entire match. I don't see how this is not broken. On open maps such as graveyard, eden, etc the player is effectively perma-caged.

I provided several points for why taunt teams are not good for the league and reasoning for why it should be limited, but I haven't seen any real legitimate reasons to allow such things.

- ATs shouldn't be limited and lineups shouldn't be banned.
Some broken powers have been banned. Taunt certainly falls in the broken category. How is perma -150% range and locked on a target less powerful then Corruptor LR? Besides no one is saying ban taunt, just limit the number of taunters per match to at least make things competitive.

- Don't QQ about lineups, if you can't counter them stop being a noob.
Really? There are obvious counters to the taunt lineup, one being stalkers which was demonstrated in thursdays matches. The points have already been made. Taunt lineups don't teach D6 players anything, they're not fun to play, and they don't encourage good pvp. Spending 10 minutes running around at -150% range while someone has me on auto follow and hits space bar is a waste of time. I could go to RWZ, target a pylon and hit 1,2,3 keys for 10 minutes and at least i'd be able to say I accomplished something.

I find it amazing that the people most against banning taunt teams are accusing people of not knowing how to run a counter. They're the ones hiding behind broken powers and a really weak lineup.

Remember D8 players, you get to play D8 matches and potentially help your weaker players in D6 matches. I'm only guaranteed to play 1 round a week. Playing against taunt teams IS NOT PVP. Its a stalling tactic.

I'm disgusted that things like this are allowed for D6 matches. By not limiting things like this the pvp community is encouraging fiteclub garbage. The i13 changes were 2 steps back, arena options to turn them off was one step forward. Allowing fiteclub lineups in the arena is a step back.

Hell if -Divine had lineups like these from the start, Eagle would still be leading that team.

Retest this please. I tried this many many times in the arena and noticed absolutely no reduction on taunt duration.

Taunt duration with no toggles on: 12 seconds
Taunt duration with TT:A: 12 seconds

TT:A = -1206.51% taunt duration.

Read my above post. -Range stacks and Taunt resistance doesn't work, that seems broken to me.


Addressed this also. No teams have that many players with only taunters that they are forced to bring more then 2 per match.

Drones are OP and not allowed in D6 or D8 matches

Insps are limited to the 20 you get per match.

Again.. Taunt is broken

He has a point. Think about this from my perspective. I don't play a traditional toon so Dex/Vex are only required to play me one match per week. I happened to get drafted by a good D8 team. If teams decide to start bringing taunt/emp teams to tie our D6 because they can't match them then where does that leave me? Even with double assault taunt duration is not reduced. My character brings absolutely nothing to the match. I'll simply not show up for 2 reasons.

1. My character doesn't contribute and having to play me would put my team at a disadvantage. They could be running 2 blasters/2 stalkers as an effective lineup against a taunt team why would I make them put me in place for less damage/effectiveness.

2. Why would I want to play against a taunt/emp team. I could spend my thursday nights doing something less lame like watching a Twilight marathon with my girlfriend.

Isn't there a 2 stalker limit for matches? If so thats not really a valid argument as there is a limit on stalkers, but not on taunters. If a team brings 2 stalkers to a D6 match, at any given time during the match they only have 4 visible players. If against a jump team, easier locks (from less targets) could even out the spike damage advantage. A fort is an appropriate counter for a stalker, able to virtually nullify them for an entire match. However a tank can do so to any target they desire. A fort is a rock to a stalkers scissor, a tank is not even a close comparison. PS. on a fort I'm arguably best equipped to counter a taunter also because double assault = double taunt resistance. I'd need some more testing to confirm this, but 99% sure taunt resistance doesn't work at all because the full duration lasts on me. In addition -range seems to stack or is bugged in some way. With 2 taunts on me I can't land a melee attack standing on top of someone.

TAs and doms are not comparable to tanks. TAs can be a boom offensively and offer excellent disruption. Same for doms, nice disruption and starting a spike with a long hold is excellent. However, unlike tanks, they suffer from defensive vulnerabilities. There is a big difference between a TA cycling targets for debuffs/a dom locking and holding before a spike and a tank choosing a single target and auto-following/auto-taunting. One requires skills used in most pvp encounters (locking, evading, spiking), the other requires picking a target, auto-following, control click on taunt, press space bar, and eat a snack.

Every match that I have played in D8 and D6 I've played my Fortunata. Its my toon that I like to play. I have a psi blaster, an ice/cold, a rad, a taunter, but I decided that I'd only play what I enjoyed. Even with glad jav/purple procs I'm 20% behind blaster un-procced damage. Every official I've played in we've won, even with that damage handicap.

Even with my limited organized pvp experience its painfully obvious that fast locks/tight spikes and good target calling > procs. Everyone pretty much uses the same blaster builds anyway (save -divine's team taking force mastery). Our D6 and D8 teams are similarly equipped and watching participating in practice sessions where we play against the D8 is no less painful then the ones your team experienced.

This is exactly the reason I spoke up. I could care less about D8 match rules, but for D6 how can this be considered legitimate. 4 taunt bots completely nullify the match. Notice in a majority of the official matches where tauntbots have been brought there have been no kills by the tauntbot team. It is an intentional draw tactic. With a rule in place 2 taunters would nullify 2 damage. The taunt team would still have the possibility to spike with 2 blasters + taunter kob/fossilize on a target. Scores would be lower as you desire for team morale, but there would still be a match going on.

This fightclub crap is exactly what everyone plays in the arena to avoid. I find it unbelievable that so many people are lolfiteclub or lolzonepvp, but are not discouraging the same crap in D6 matches.

Stop thinking about this from a team score perspective, and look at it from a "Is this in line with what our goals were for D6 matches" perspective. Honestly, are these the kinds of matches and tactics you want to expose and encourage among newer pvpers? I'm not a team captain but I implore you, consider proposing this rule change.

Edit: sorry for the overlap with Dex, went afk while writing and didn't see his post till afterward.

*sighs and shakes head*

Adjusted slightly.

I generally don't post in threads like these but I'm going to speak up in this case. This statement is simply not true. The D6 emps got to play all 3 matches and every blaster got to play once. I played in the first match and I run a Fortunata.

I'm not sure what position you're taking in attacking Post OP's leadership. Is it because 2 D8 players played in every match, or because the other D6 players (besides the emps) only got rotated in once? If its the former, every team afaik is guilty of the same thing. Its in the rules, a team would be at a disadvantage to not run 2 experienced players. If the latter, again blame the rules. If D6 matches were 8v8 there would be more opportunities for rotating in our roster. Am I happy that I only got to play one match? Heck no. But like the rules say (even though you're accusing us of breaking them) everyone has to play, and I understand why I only get in one match per week.

As for Habachi, he was not around for the matches. I don't know why you keep saying you saw him in pocket D. I logged in as soon as I got back from work (an hour before matches started) and went to Pocket D. Habachi was not in the zone, he was not shown as online in our global channel, and he was not in vent. Personally, I didn't have any contact with him that day at all; which is why I'm confused this even became an issue. Not for nothing my organized PvP knowledge is lacking, but if Post OP is willing to run a Fortunata in place of a blaster in their typical lineup (if you didn't know Fortunata blasts have the same modifier as defender blasts)... Why would they bench or hide Habachi who plays a psi blaster? It doesn't make any sense.

If you don't believe the leadership maybe you'd believe someone who doesn't really care about the competition and is just around to gain some experience and have a little fun. I'm not sure if you sincerely believe that Post OP tried to cheat, if you have a personal vendetta against a member of the team, or you're simply trolling. Either way there was no foul play here.

I realize this is leadership business, but it really is ridiculous. I apologize if I was out of line butting in.

This actually already happens in pvp zones. Try flying up to the ceiling in RV and dropping, then doing the same thing in Atlas. There is a noticeable difference in damage taken.

Have no fear, I shall enlighten you.

1. Forts do superior ranged damage. While NW's have access to mental blast and poison dart, which are both fast recharging range attacks, it is difficult to get them chained in pvp without a pause. Additionally Forts have access to dominate which is easily procced and will interrupt toggles such as hurricane and rad toggles. You could slot hold procs in those two attacks, but then you're losing out on potential damage procs or better slotting options. Dominate also ignores positional defenses so it is the best damage dealing option against other defense based toons. You 'could' grab shraks for the crit from hide with MP, but then you'd be losing out on the shatter armor goodness.

2. I concede that NWs do better melee damage thanks to the availability of slash and its crit from hide. However these are much less effective on a widow then on a stalker. Slash's damage isn't all that great even with a crit. Also, every widow melee attack (with the exception of followup, but I assume you're taking buildup on a pvp build) has a dot component. That means that if you fire a melee attack it's between 2.6s and 3.6s before you can use placate. If you do use it within that time it is wasted as you'll be targetable and the stealth you just got will probably be dropped before you get off your next melee attack. Best of luck getting off a Slash crit, shatter armor, placate and another crit from slash or lunge in any reasonable amount of time. It could work in a 1v1 situation, but in a team or arena setting the target would either be dead from a spike, or healed because it would take too long.

3. The other advantage NWs have is the availability of elude. The ability to be untouchable for 3 minutes is pretty nice to have. I can see the value of this in zones, as you can be tougher then a regin and just chill in the base when its down. In the arena however the standard is 10 minute matches, at best you can hope for 2 mins downtime (pre-dr probably more in the area of 2.5 mins). Basically up for 3 mins, down for 3 mins, up for 3 mins. Honestly from what I've experienced its unnecessary. Built for defense the additional of elude is just not needed. 55-60% pre-dr isn't difficult to obtain without sacrificing any slotting of hp, dam, acc. I sit around 59% ranged defense pre-dr and in kickballs and arena 8v8s I've died 1 time in the past 2 months. Not 1 time per match, 1 time total. Generally if your defenses are high enough you'll either be ignored or the spike will be called, if you don't go down in a few seconds the opposing team will usually move on to the next target. Elude is a good route if you have a cheap build or don't want to invest the inf into a lolpvpwidow, but otherwise its not the best route.

The only true functional advantage of going NW over fort is the -recharge resistance granted by mental training (and the +recharge to an extent). That would make colds slightly less of a pain.

Edit: I suppose you could use mind link during the elude downtime, granting additional defenses for 90s of the break... But that makes an already tight build even tighter. You need your defensive toggles, leadership (at least the 2 tactics), slash, sa and web env, mez protection, placate, travel powers, melee and ranged attacks, and possibly tough/weave or phase/elude. There simply isn't a way to get everything, something has to be sacrificed.

There is a 1v1 style tournament built into the arena options. All join and the game will set random matches. There is a 2 minute break between each match and the arena will automatically draw you into your next fight. It is pretty cool, but it does take forever.

For some reason this post reminds me of the anti-gank code.

What I was trying to get at was capped HP is not all that matters. +Def is important for def toons because they need to be well over the soft-cap for it to be effective. +Acc is important for going up against Def toons or to-hit debuffs. +Recharge is important for longer recharge debuffs and attacks like therms/colds and spirit shark jaws etc. KB prot and Perception are important for any one who doesn't get it built in. +Damage is useful for nearly everyone.

Capped HP is very high on the priority list, it isn't the only stat that matters in pvp. The pvp system does not treat everyone equally, some toons need little investment to be functional while others need a significant investment to be even somewhat competitive.

That being said, i'm not arguing against your point. I wouldn't complain about drop rates being increased, or alternate ways for attaining IOs. Be it from merits or completion of difficult tasks, badges, w/e. Several months of casual play to complete a toon does begin to feel like a job as someone else mentioned.

Afaik all damage from procs ignores resistances

It's difficult to make such generalizations, as it varies per archetype.

A blaster for example after accolades will be at 1446/1606 HP. Needing only 160hp from sets allows them to spread around set bonuses and focus on other things like acc, dam, rech, etc.

Opposite that, take a Fortunata. After accolades a fort sits at 1285 HP, although they have a higher cap then blasters, they have to invest more to even reach what blasters can do easily. Additionally Forts have the lowest damage output (with the exception of Masterminds) so dam slotting is necessary. Also, defenses even at the pve soft-cap are useless in pvp, an extra 8-10% from slotting/power selection is necessary.

The system may not reward skill or speed, but build investment, IOs, and min/maxing in some cases are worthwhile.

But I'm bad too...

Not quite.

3 Resist SO's - After ED - 56% bonus
the 56% bonus is str aspect so it uses uses the .33/.8 to become 51%
Apply the 51% buff to the power -> 1.51*22.5 = 33.975% (Resist granted from Dark embrace)
Add the bonus from global sets 33.975 + 8 = 41.975%
Apply DR to the TOTAL (this uses the .6/1.0 cur) 41.975% -> ~35%

Now if you didn't have that global bonus, DR is still applied to the total
DR on 33.975 -> ~30%

So, no you aren't worse off with the set bonus Its confusing but keep in mind DR is applied to enhancement slotting and to totals. Say you also took tough. DR would affect the enhancement slotting in tough, and the TOTAL s/l defense from tough, set bonus, and dark embrace. It does not affect them individually. EX.

Tough with 3 resist SOs - After ED - 56% bonus
the 56% bonus is str aspect so it uses uses the .33/.8 to become 51%
Apply the 51% buff to the power -> 1.51*11.3 = 17.063% (Resist granted from Tough)
Add the bonus from global sets, tough, DE 33.975 + 8 + 17.063 = 59.036%
In PvP Scrappers also get 10% bonus to resists, so add that 69.036%
Apply DR to the TOTAL (this uses the .6/1.0 cur) 69.036 -> ~52%

Just remember DR hits statistic totals, not individual powers (and enhancement slotting). Hope that clears things up a little.

At this point DR can not be removed from pvp without other changes. If it was removed today squishies would be running around at the resistance cap and toons built for defense would have survivability comparable to what they have in pve.

If damage was scaled back, inherent resists were removed, and elusivity taken away, then maybe... But that would just be pre-i13 pvp with travel suppression and heal decay. A total roll back would be better.

Plus, every pvp character made over the past year would become obsolete. I'm sure many members of the community would be happy to have the old pvp back, but many would groan at all the wasted inf/time.

At this point I'd be happy with just some bug fixes ><