Everything has an upper and lower limit. The opposite of a "cap" is a "floor". ie "We floored his ToHit value".
Like caps, floors vary. There is no limit to how much you can debuff a target, but rather, how much debuff can be stacked on a single target.
If the floor for a certain attribure is -50%, and the target starts at +25%, and you debuff them by -30%, they are at -5% and can be debuffed a further -45%. Anything beyond that is ignored until earlier debuffs wear off.
Note that there is no limit to how much debuff can be applied, other than the practical limit imposed by durations and recharge. It is just ignored if it forces a value below the floor, and it is countered by buffs of the same type (recharge/slow, defense/defense debuff, etc).
@Roderick
Quote:
This is a lot to cover, and I don't have the time before I leave work to do it. I'll toss out some general concepts and someone else will probably come in and correct it or fill the gaps.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
We often talk about Caps... soft caps - defence, resistance etc. There's a lot of threads dealing with it and I'm pretty convinced getting to them is essential for the long term health of any toon you want to play seriously.
But one thing I've never seen mentioned is debuff caps. Is it possible to debuff a PC or a critter to a minimum? In other words can their "toHit" or "defence" (or any other attribute) be reduced to a finite limit - or can it be ongoing? Does one player have a limit to the amount of debuff they can do - and does it stack? By which I mean if I debuff The Honoree (as an example) as far as I possibly can - could my team mate then add to that debuff? I appreciate there's a finite level to which a debuffer can operate: Spamming debuffs takes time and they are of finite duration but is that the only limitation to them? Are debuffs linear, insofar that they reduce an attribute by a fixed percentage or do they change incrementally with use, a la "diminishing returns" when slotting S/IOs? To put that in context if I have a power that debuffs an attribute by 10% if I hit my target 10 times will their attribute be 0 or will the power itself - without taking other forms of mitigation into effect - be less (or even more) effective? |
In CoH many stats are interchangeable. The simple example of this is the defense soft-cap. It's considered a soft-cap because at 45% defense a lvl 50 minion will have 5% chance to hit you, which is the to-hit chance floor. Regardless of how much defense you have the chance to hit will never go below 5%.
The opposing stat for defense is to-hit. Effectively defense and -to-hit do the same thing. Example.
A SR scrapper with 45% defense is at the soft-cap.
A dark defender that uses a slotted darkest night and fearsome stare on a mob (-25%+ -27% to-hit) is also effectively at the defense soft-cap.
While not actually having any defense the to-hit debuffs lower the mobs chance to hit to the lowest amount possible.
As far as stacking goes, most (if not all) debuffs do not stack from the same caster. I don't have time to double check this, but i'm almost positive. Same goes for most buffs, with a few exceptions. Thinks like Clear Mind are stackable, but Force Fields are not (with the exception of zoning being considered a different caster). So, a Poison MM can't stack Envenom on a target, 2 poison MMs can both use theirs once.
As far as I know there is no diminished returns outside of pvp, or hard/soft-caps. Example.
If you're up against a mob with 10% resistance and have a rad on your team that uses enervating field. The mob now has -30% resistance.
Things like this can come in handy for creating optimal team makeups. Say you're a scrapper and you want to do the most damage possible. A kin is a good option because fulcrum shift can put you at your +damage cap. But you still have a higher damage potential. +damage and -resistance are interchangeable. So, if a rad is added to the team that uses enervating field for -resistance on the mobs your damage goes up! This is why support heavy teams are significantly more powerful then most other team makeups.
One other thing to note. While things like defense and -to-hit are interchangeable, for high end things like soloing AVs you have to take the purple patch into consideration. AVs have scaling resistances for many stats based on their level. At level 50 AVs have 85% resistance to -RunSpeed, -Recharge, -Endurance, -ToHit, -Defense, -Perception, -Regeneration, and -Recovery. In the example with the dark defender above doing -52% to-hit with fearsome stare and darkest night, against a 50 AV that number is reduced to -7.8%. That puts them way below the soft-cap and explains why in high end cases its not the best option.
As Roderick said, there are floors that limit how much you can debuff an enemy, Paragon Wiki has a list of most of them:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Limits
Your ability to stack debuffs is limited by the fact that most powers do not stack with themselves when cast by the same character altough they will stack with the same power from another character.
Additionally, debuffs are resisted by three things:
1. The enemies native resistance to the debuff
2. The Purple Patch
3. AV resistance (if appropriate)
This makes it very hard to floor the stats of high level AVs (as in the enemies where doing so would be useful) unless you have quite a few debuffers.
Quote:
Not quite. Resistance resists resistible resistance debuffs. So the -30% debuff from enervating field is reduced to a 27% resistance debuff leaving the enemy at -17% resistance.
|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
As far as I know there is no diminished returns outside of pvp, or hard/soft-caps. Example.
If you're up against a mob with 10% resistance and have a rad on your team that uses enervating field. The mob now has -30% resistance. |
Quote:
I'm pretty convinced otherwise. We may have to agree to disagree.
| I'm pretty convinced getting to them is essential for the long term health of any toon you want to play seriously. |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Interesting topic. 
I won't get deep into the numbers... others already summed up what I had to say there - but I WILL say that stacking sonic debuffs and kin buffs are a popular tactic for speed runs, precisely because of their synergy damage-wise. They do for DPS what the defence/to-hit scale does for survivability.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
Quote:
never mind thanks for the neg rep anyhow|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
I'm pretty convinced otherwise. We may have to agree to disagree.
|
To the other posters thanks for the good info.
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
While this is technically true, due to the way it works, you will always increase your damage by the magnitude of the res debuff (30% in this case), so you can pretty much ignore this particular effect.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Not quite. Resistance resists resistible resistance debuffs. So the -30% debuff from enervating field is reduced to a 27% resistance debuff leaving the enemy at -17% resistance.
|
Example to explain for those that care:
Target A - 0% Res
Target B - 50% Res
Shoot each with a 100 damage attack:
A takes 100 dam
B takes 50 dam
Now, apply a 10% res debuff
A now has -10% res
B has (50-(50%*10)) = 45% res
Hit with the attack again
A takes 110 damage
B takes 55 damage
A has taken (110-100)/100 = 10% more damage
B has taken (55-50)/50 = 10% more damage
Quote:
Very good point, I suspect that is precisely why they did it that way, if they didn't resistance debuffs would be overly powerful against enemies designed with high resistances.
|
Originally Posted by PhroX
While this is true, due to the way it works, you will always increase your damage by the magnitude of the res debuff (30% in this case), so you can pretty much ignore this particular effect.
|
Quote:
Yeah, it's pretty cleverly done. It doesn't confuse non-number crunching players, as their debuffs increase their damage by exactly what they expect them to, an at the same time prevents the debuffs from trivialising high-resistance encounters.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Very good point, I suspect that is precisely why they did it that way, if they didn't resistance debuffs would be overly powerful against enemies designed with high resistances.
|
The other oddity when it comes to debuffs the fact that resistance resists damage debuffs. While this not only means that -dam is less effective on high-res enemies, but that -res increases the effect of -dam. A dark/sonic defender could (if there was no cap) pretty much take a targets damage to 0% (someone else can work it out eactly, but its (DN + TG + Fluffy's TG)*(TP + 3-4x sonic -res))
Quote:
Damage and Resistance are horribly entwined in the powers system, I think it was set up that way when CoH was first designed to make various calculations easier without considering the full impact. I wasn't aware that resistance resisted damage debuffs but another example of a similar effect is Hamidon Origin enhancements where HOs that boost Damage or Resistance actually boost the other if slotted in an appropriate power.
|
Originally Posted by PhroX
The other oddity when it comes to debuffs the fact that resistance resists damage debuffs. While this not only means that -dam is less effective on high-res enemies, but that -res increases the effect of -dam. A dark/sonic defender could (if there was no cap) pretty much take a targets damage to 0% (someone else can work it out eactly, but its (DN + TG + Fluffy's TG)*(TP + 3-4x sonic -res))
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Quote:
|
/this.
I have several "long term playable" characters. Of them all, the only ones with anything capped are my two fire tanks (where the only way you can not cap fire resist is to not run any armors, honestly.)
Capping is not essential to playing a character seriously or health - long or short term. If you *want* to chase it, fine, but it's no more essential to character playability than a Bugatti Veryon or Rolls Royce is to being able to drive, or $500+/bottle wine is to eating.
The rest of the discussion is interesting and a worthwhile thread. But that initial statement is just flat out wrong.
Didn't read everything so this may have been mentioned... but the trick with debuffs, is debuffs can "fail." If that badguy moves out of range of the debuff, or the debuff misses, or it gets resisted by a lot (AV's tend to have have high debuff resistances), or if there's more badguys out there then the max targets affected.... then you lose your protection. Self buffs do not have this issue.
That's not to say that it's an unreliable way to build.... it's just a *less* reliable way to build.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
Quote:
Very well written. Debuffs do make the damage numbers go up, it took me a while to figure out that's why my damage values differed. |
Originally Posted by LuxunS
This is a lot to cover, and I don't have the time before I leave work to do it. I'll toss out some general concepts and someone else will probably come in and correct it or fill the gaps.
In CoH many stats are interchangeable. The simple example of this is the defense soft-cap. It's considered a soft-cap because at 45% defense a lvl 50 minion will have 5% chance to hit you, which is the to-hit chance floor. Regardless of how much defense you have the chance to hit will never go below 5%. The opposing stat for defense is to-hit. Effectively defense and -to-hit do the same thing. Example. A SR scrapper with 45% defense is at the soft-cap. A dark defender that uses a slotted darkest night and fearsome stare on a mob (-25%+ -27% to-hit) is also effectively at the defense soft-cap. While not actually having any defense the to-hit debuffs lower the mobs chance to hit to the lowest amount possible. As far as stacking goes, most (if not all) debuffs do not stack from the same caster. I don't have time to double check this, but i'm almost positive. Same goes for most buffs, with a few exceptions. Thinks like Clear Mind are stackable, but Force Fields are not (with the exception of zoning being considered a different caster). So, a Poison MM can't stack Envenom on a target, 2 poison MMs can both use theirs once. As far as I know there is no diminished returns outside of pvp, or hard/soft-caps. Example. If you're up against a mob with 10% resistance and have a rad on your team that uses enervating field. The mob now has -30% resistance. Things like this can come in handy for creating optimal team makeups. Say you're a scrapper and you want to do the most damage possible. A kin is a good option because fulcrum shift can put you at your +damage cap. But you still have a higher damage potential. +damage and -resistance are interchangeable. So, if a rad is added to the team that uses enervating field for -resistance on the mobs your damage goes up! This is why support heavy teams are significantly more powerful then most other team makeups. One other thing to note. While things like defense and -to-hit are interchangeable, for high end things like soloing AVs you have to take the purple patch into consideration. AVs have scaling resistances for many stats based on their level. At level 50 AVs have 85% resistance to -RunSpeed, -Recharge, -Endurance, -ToHit, -Defense, -Perception, -Regeneration, and -Recovery. In the example with the dark defender above doing -52% to-hit with fearsome stare and darkest night, against a 50 AV that number is reduced to -7.8%. That puts them way below the soft-cap and explains why in high end cases its not the best option. |
My SD scrapper hits (with SD Charge) about 600-700hp with BU, but when i add Melt Armor then my damage goes over 800hp and when a /kin is on the team and all of it is added i can hit over 1100hp.
Quote:
[Emphasis mine.]|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Your ability to stack debuffs is limited by the fact that most powers do not stack with themselves when cast by the same character
|
Just curious...what are the exceptions to this general observation? For instance, I thought I read someone claim, somewhere in the forums, that the -recharge in Chilblains was stackable from the same caster (although of course I can't find the post now). I tried to confirm this on Mids but I can't seem to find the "This effect does not stack from the same caster" message that I am able to find for the -ToHit in Flast Arrow, for instance.
Has anyone ever compiled a list of the debuffs that are stackable from the same caster? (Or does "most" really mean "every one we can think of"?
)
Quote:
In what context are you saying this? Generally, the vast majority of characters that play on teams don't need any defense at all. There are so many things that eliminate the need for defense on teams: a tanker taking all the aggro, controllers locking down entire spawns, Dark and Rad defenders debuffing the enemies' to-hit, Storm's Freezing Rain knocking down spawns and pretty much preventing them from doing anything for many seconds, Fortitude from empaths, healing from half the defenders and controllers out there, defense from Ice and Force Field, etc., etc.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
There's a lot of threads dealing with it and I'm pretty convinced getting to them is essential for the long term health of any toon you want to play seriously.
|
Soft-capping is overkill for most characters that are running at standard difficulties. It's big boon for someone running at +0/x8, but it's not essential for survival. Resistance-based tankers, especially, can get along fine without softcapped defense just by using inspirations. Solo at x8 they drop like a soft rain, and with the ability to combine them it's even easier.
Because there's so many intelligent replies already, I'll just say this:
This thread title is really witty. My cap's off to you.
Quote:
The general exceptions from the debuff sets are the powers that summon a pet or pseudo-pet. For those since the debuff comes from the pet if you can have multiple instances of the pet out simultaneously they can stack the de-buffs. |
Originally Posted by Eisengrim
Just curious...what are the exceptions to this general observation? For instance, I thought I read someone claim, somewhere in the forums, that the -recharge in Chilblains was stackable from the same caster (although of course I can't find the post now). I tried to confirm this on Mids but I can't seem to find the "This effect does not stack from the same caster" message that I am able to find for the -ToHit in Flast Arrow, for instance.
Has anyone ever compiled a list of the debuffs that are stackable from the same caster? (Or does "most" really mean "every one we can think of"? ) |
Additionally according to redtomax the secondary effects in the damage sets (blast, melee, assault) do stack from the same caster.
There might be others somewhere, I've never really bothered to do a complete survey.
We often talk about Caps... soft caps - defence, resistance etc. There's a lot of threads dealing with it and I'm pretty convinced getting to them is essential for the long term health of any toon you want to play seriously.
But one thing I've never seen mentioned is debuff caps. Is it possible to debuff a PC or a critter to a minimum? In other words can their "toHit" or "defence" (or any other attribute) be reduced to a finite limit - or can it be ongoing?
Does one player have a limit to the amount of debuff they can do - and does it stack? By which I mean if I debuff The Honoree (as an example) as far as I possibly can - could my team mate then add to that debuff?
I appreciate there's a finite level to which a debuffer can operate: Spamming debuffs takes time and they are of finite duration but is that the only limitation to them?
Are debuffs linear, insofar that they reduce an attribute by a fixed percentage or do they change incrementally with use, a la "diminishing returns" when slotting S/IOs? To put that in context if I have a power that debuffs an attribute by 10% if I hit my target 10 times will their attribute be 0 or will the power itself - without taking other forms of mitigation into effect - be less (or even more) effective?
Thelonious Monk