Local_Man

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Here is my understanding of the biggest changes affecting Tanks and Scrappers. Feel free to toss in corrections and opinions, all.

1. Enhancement Diversity, aka "ED". At high levels, this means the return on putting more than 3 of the same enh in a power is very small. At lower levels it can sometimes still benefit you.

The impact on Invuln is really pretty great, and many believe Invuln is now on the worthless side. Actually, many of us admit that tanks were overpowered. However, some of the defense nerfs and other nerfs have made some powers have substantially reduced value to the point where the power is no longer worth taking. For Invul Tanks, the reduction to resistance has made the non-toggle resists (Resist Elements and Resist Energies) and defense (Tough Hide) have questionable benefit. Some tanks are forgoing powers to take the Medicine Pool with Aid Self to become a "regen tank." Fire Tanks had a major reduction to the benefit of Burn, thereby reducing the substantial AoE damage done by Fire Tanks. Both are no longer "Uber." The days of herding an entire floor of baddies and standing in the middle of them taking little damage are gone. Now, Tanks solo fine, but need some support to handle larger crowds. It is also tougher to hold aggro for a large group. Generally, Stone tanks, when they get Granite Armor, are considered the best at taking damage. (Many Blasters aren't happy with this either.)

2. Taunt cap. You can't hit more than 6 mobs with a single Taunt, though (as I understand) there is no limit to the number who can *be* in a taunted state at one time. Actually, I think the taunt cap is 5. However, every hit generates a small taunt, which is called, "Gauntlet." This means that you have to be more active, running around to hit more bad guys, to hold aggro.

I don't find this a big limitation with my L31 Inv/Axe tank. I appear in front of some, hit some others, taunt some more, and this is usually sufficient to get a good herd going. I also have 2 slots in Taunt for recharging.

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Frankly, it takes a little more skill to be a really good tank now. And I think that is a good thing. However, there are some powers that need to be revisited. The Invul set now has 3-4 powers that are easily skippable. Fire Tanks really need some kind of knockdown protection, so they are not all forced to take Superjump to get Accrobatics. Ice is supposed to be improved with the defense changes in I-7.

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Melee players. All I’m going to say about this is that, with a very few exceptions, a tank or scrapper can’t hit someone outside of arm’s reach. Think on this when shooting a target in melee range of a melee toon and consider whether your shot is going to make your team more or less effective. Simple as that.


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I have a couple of different perspectives on knockback/knockdown. My Ill/Rad has Phantasm, the Pet king of knockback. More often than not, Phant's knockback is a benefit . . . He floats behind me and knocks back bad guys who are coming up to me to deliver a smackdown, and they go flying back. Nice damage protection. The knockback also reduces damage from the bad guys over all, since they don't hit while getting up. On occasion, Phant frustrates me. I run in, fire off Flash or EM Pulse in the middle of a neat group of baddies to set up some nice, juicy containment for Fireball, and suddenly the group goes flying when Phant throws in a Torrent. Oh, well. That's the price I have to pay sometimes for having a pet/bodyguard.

On the other hand, I have an Invul/Axe Tank. Knockback/down is the secondary effect of Battle Axe. Before I-5/I-6, before the defense nerfs and ED, Knockback was an annoyance. Now, it is my friend. With every hit, I taunt, thanks to Gauntlet. That means that if I knock back the baddie with my trusty Axe, it is likely that he will come running back for some more punishment. While he is on his backside, he is not hitting me, and I can focus my damage on another. Whirling Axe has become one of my best damage mitigation powers. The damage is fairly minor, but the power knocks down/back the guys all around me, reducing the damage I receive, while taunting them to come back and keep their aggro focused on me. I can then use my single target attacks to take down one guy, and then turn to the next, fire off WA again, and take down the next.

In light of the reduction of defense, knockback has become far more valuable as a way to reduce damage.

And it is fun, too.

Legend --
1) Makes full use of the HO
2) Can use two of of the three benefits
3) Can use two or more benefits of the HO, but it will be a waste, as the benefit is not worth enhancing. Not recommended.
If an HO can be used for only one benefit, it is not mentioned, as an SO would be better.

Illusion Control:

Spectral Wounds:
1) Nucleolus Exposure - Damage and Accuracy
1) Centriole Exposure - Damage and Range

Blind:
1) Nucleolus Exposure - Damage and Accuracy
1) Centriole Exposure - Damage and Range
1) Peroxisome Exposure - Damage and Mez
1) Endoplasm Exposure - Accuracy and Mez

Deceive: (Do Mez HO's affect Confusion duration? If so, then
1) Endoplasm Exposure - Accuracy and Mez

Flash:
1) Endoplasm Exposure - Accuracy and Mez

Superior Invis:
3) Membrane Exposure - Increase ToHit and Defense Buffs, and Increase Attack Rate

Group Invis:
2) or 3) Membrane Exposure - Increase ToHit and Defense Buffs, and Increase Attack Rate

Phantom Army:
1) Nucleolus Exposure - Damage and Accuracy
1) Centriole Exposure - Damage and Range

Spectral Terror: (Do Mez HO's affect Fear duration? If so, then
1) Endoplasm Exposure - Accuracy and Mez

Phantasm:
1) Nucleolus Exposure - Damage and Accuracy
1) Centriole Exposure - Damage and Range


Notes: Many people consider Range to be an unwise addition to Phantom Army and Phantasm, it would increase the chance that the pets will aggro unwanted enemies.

The Defense in Group Invisibility is so small, it is not worth enhancing. The only worthwhile enhancement is Recharge. The Defense in Superior Invisibility is better, but for the most part, Recharge is wasted in SI since it is a toggle. An HO in either of these powers is probably wasted.

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Nope, not changed.

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Thanks, Castle. I love it when you do that -- just drop into a thread and squelch unfounded rumours.

. . . or drop hints . . . .

So, now it is safe to respec my Tank into Aid Self? Good!

This is a very nice guide, and one of the few recent ones. I needed it, too, as my main Ill/Rad controller just hit 50 this weekend (WOOT! After 16 mos of playing too many alts!), so I now have my first chance to play a Kheld.

The only criticism is that it could use some numbers: I would like to know how much resistance, how much damage, how long is the recharge, etc. (Is the Hero Planner accurate? If so, use those numbers.)

Thanks for your good work!

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You might be old if...

... you didn't know that the Incredible Hulk was green because you owned a black and white TV.

... you watched the original King Kong on TV and were amazed at the great special effects (ok you're really old if you saw it in the theaters).

... you watch Star Wars: A New Hope with your kids and they think the special effects suck.

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About a month before Star Wars came out, I remember a Time magazine cover story about how this new movie used all kinds of special effects that had never been done before. That article really built up my burning desire to see it, and I saw it about 6 times in the theater -- two times I sat through it twice. I also was at the 1980 World Science Fiction Convention in Denver, and saw the very first time Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back were shown officially as a double feature! Producers Kathleen Kennedy and Frank Marshall were there to tell stories about the productions. Empire won the Hugo Award, of course.

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... you ever ordered a "spud gun" or "sea monkeys" out of the back of a comic book.

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I ordered Sea Monkeys, and those X-Ray Glasses that were supposed to let you see through people's clothes. What a rip off!

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... you ever played a game on a Wang, OSI or Trash 80.
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I used them all, and used to work on a Wang dedicated Word Processor that used the 8-inch (really) floppy disks. These came out a little before Apple started selling "micro-computers."

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... you had to assemble your brand new spanking computer you mail ordered (and I mean actually soldering it together).

... you ever played Wumpus Hunt.


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I remember playing it on a mainframe, but I just can't remember what the game was. The "Wumpus" reached the same level of mythological status on my campus as a "snipe."

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... you know who Thomas Covenant is and couldn't wait for the second book to come out.

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"Lord Foul's Bane" taught me more about leprosy than I had ever known. What made those books so good was that Covenant wasn't really a hero or anti-hero. He was complicated and really frustrating, as he had the power to fix everything, but not the will.

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My grandparents used to drive around in this! Actually you would pull quite a few heads if you drove one today.

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I can beat that! My grandfather was the original owner of one of these. His was a black hard-top. He would pull it out on some Sundays in the spring and summer, and we would ride to church in it. We heard that when he passed away, he was the last original owner of that kind of car anywhere. My Uncle still has the car, but it will end up in a museum.

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...but really, what the heck was up with this. Those were hideous (even moreso than those horrid box-shaped cars on the road today).

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I drove a Gremlin. It was my Grandfather's 2nd car and when he passed away, I got it in 1982. In 1984, the motor mounts broke, but I was in a situation where I had no money or time to get it fixed. I got some nylon string from a K-Mart and tied the engine back, so it did not slide into the fan.

I drove the car like that for 9 months before the string broke, and then tied the engine back again to keep it going for another couple of months. I then gave it to my always-down-on-his-luck brother-in-law, who drove it that way for another 8 months or so.

It was really ugly; Yellow and rusting out. At least I never had to worry that someone would steal it! It was my first standard-shift car.

Your team of 6 waltzes through Frostfire like it is nothing. One tank, two scrappers, one blaster, my Ice/storm controller and an Emp defender. Great balance, great speed, but we all stayed together, to take advantage of my slows and the defender's heals. Also, some amusing chatting along the way. This, to me, was just about an ideal team. I added them all to friends, and got the Tank to join my Supergroup.

Most of my PUGs are decent . . . not as great as the team above, but pretty good players who make a few mistakes. Often we will have one, usually a blaster or scrapper, who does something careless which causes his character to faceplant. No one "blames" anyone else, and usually we all laugh knowingly how doing something dumb will get you to lick the floor. On occasion, you may have a tank or blaster who likes to jump the gun and start the action before my controller is ready (I play controllers most often), but that just means that the team will not get full benefit of my powers. Most of the PUGs are generally a fun experience.

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you have a bind for costume changes for use with your ingame 'twin' WONDER TWIN POWERS ACTIVATE


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My wife and I have a pair of Illusion Controllers who use that as their battle cry!

Who remembers this line from a cartoon? "My wings are like a shield of steel!"

One of my earliest memories is being at my Grandmother's house, and being mad at the TV because none of my Saturday cartoons were on. They were all replaced by some stupid funeral . . . for President Kennedy.

I was a big fan of the original run of the campy "Batman" television series. The Green Hornet was actually a short-lived spin off of Batman, and starred Bruce Lee as Kato!

I remember when comics raised their price from $.12 to $.15, and had to give a long explanation that the costs had increased. Of course, my mother threw away all my comics when I was away during in High School.

Our TV was Black and White, and I remember when we finally got a color set . . .

My high school was very special because we actually had a computer. It was a Digital minicomputer with two teletype terminals. We had to save our programs, in BASIC of course, on rolls of yellow punched paper tape. When the termina read the program, you would have to go back through it with a printout to correct all the mis-reads.

The Apple came out while I was in college . . . to program sounds, we had to use commands to a memory location (peek and poke) to direct the speaker diaphram to go in and out. We would set up a subroutine that would repeat that to get anything more than a "tic," and the more delay between "tics," the lower the sound would be.

I remember when we first got graphics terminals for my college computer system. I helped program a game where you would set an angle and force, and a little stick figure would jump off the tallest building on campus and go splat! Then it would describe what other building you hit. Most of the programming was in Fortran or Cobol.

My liberal arts college did not yet have a computer major. Only technical schools had that major. The best you could do is be a Math major. (I was Econ/Math).

My first computer was an Atari 800, with 16K of RAM and a cassette drive to save and load programs. It cost $899 on sale (I saved up for it) plus another $199 for the cassette drive. I replaced the cassette drive with a single sided, single density 5 1/4 inch floppy drive as soon as I could afford the $399 cost. Each disk held 88K after being formatted. My printer was a dot-matrix, and later a daisey-wheel. With Atari-Writer, a word processor on a cartridge, it was my word processor through graduate school. I got the Atari because it had the same processor, a 6502, as the Apple II, but had better sound and graphics. It also had the very first smooth scrolling first person shooter, where you flew through space and shot ships that looked like tie-fighters. The first game I purchased when I got my Floppy disk drive was Zork.

How is that for the "way-back machine, Mr. Peabody?"

Yeah, I like this thread, too. I have been in many, many good PUG, and a few bad ones.

Yesterday, I rolled an Ice/Storm controller. I like controllers, but had not really tried either of those powersets very far. I do some hunting and one mission but was still level 2, and then was invited to a Sewer team. The leader was a newbie, who gathered a few people and then quit, leaving an experienced Emp Defender as leader. He gathered a full team of 8, with 2 controllers, 2 tanks, 2 defenders and a PB and a scrapper . . . and it turned out that the scrapper and PB were boyfriend/girlfriend.

The most important thing was that the team was patient. We would gather beyond the aggro range of the baddies, quickly discuss what we were going to do, and then let loose. Between battles, we would have some pretty funny discussions. Five of us hit level 3 on the second battle, and then got to level 4 in record time. We agreed on getting a team wipe so we could all level, then came back to work our way up to level 7 in the fastest I have ever done it.

I find that the best groups are ones that combine smart play with friendly banter . . . and I usually find that in older players, I am sorry to say. Usually college age and up, but there are some exceptions. Couples who play together are almost always good teammates.

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As a regen scrapper I've always saved my dullpain.

In tough spots my order of healing is always... Reconstruction then my healing inspirations, as Reconstruction has the faster recharge rate for me. If that still wasn't enough, I'd hit dull pain. I'd fight a bit and hopefully by then reconstruction had recharged. If not and it looked grim, Instant healing got kicked on. Hopefully one of my teammates was still alive. If not. I ran away a bit (to get instant healing to kick in a bit more) before charging back into the huge mob that was probably now formed on me.

It's worked pretty well so far, just unsure how much to slot each with heal SOs.

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Awesome Guide! It was before, and the update is great.

For Regen, I think it is actually better to use DP as your first heal, before reconstruction, in most cases. (Unless you pop it first, before the attack, if you are expecting a huge Alpha Strike that might otherwise one-shot you without DP.)

The reason is in this guide. Once you have DP up and running, your regen amount per second increases substantially. The regen rate stays the same, but since your total HP has increased, your heal from Fast Healing and Health gives you more HP per second with DP than without. I think this is also true with Integration, since it heals on ticks.

Therefore, if your DP is slotted 3 recharge, 3 heal, DP should be your first heal you click. Hit DP as soon as you get close to 50% on your green bar. It should heal you up all the way, and your regen amount per second is then increased.

Obviously, there are situations where you may want to hold on to your DP if you think it may be needed later. You may be wiping out minions, and save DP for when you take on the AV or Elite Boss. Or otherwise, you may be hitting the easier part of the battle first, and need to save DP for later. But you may want to consider changing your default order of heals to use Dull Pain earlier, or even first.

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Here's probably the stupidest question I've seen on these boards, but HOW DO YOU GET TO THE HOLLOWS????
I looked for an hour and a half this morning, but I couldn't figure out how to get there! Please help!!

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When in Atlas, hit "M," or click on "MAP" on the window in the top middle of your screen, to get to your map. On the right side, you will see a green dot. Roll your mouse over that, and it will say that it is the Hollows. Click on it, and close the window. Your compass at the top middle window of your screen will now direct you to the entrance to the Hollows. It is in the far East side of Atlas Park.

On your map, the green dot on the left (West) is Perez Park, and the one at the top (North) is the tunnel to Steel Canyon. Use your map a lot until you really know where things are. Or ask on Broadcast, and usually someone will help.

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Like back when kids thought it was cool to let your pants drag down on your @$$ so your underpants showed, or the Spice Girls.

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All those kids were acting in solidarity with the "Working Class" by wearing pants that mimic the special attire of plumbers. So it was really a political statement . . .

And the Spice Girls were the greatest musical artists of the modern era . . .

And l33t speak is a demonstration of the superior language skills of the intelligencia . . .

[And this thread really belongs in the player's guide section . . . ]

Nice guide, with lots and lots of good stuff in here. Has a lot of good explanations for new players. I really like the strategy suggestions, as most guides do not cover this! I also liked the discussion of the Insp tray. Few new players (and not all old ones) know how to effectively use their inspirations. You also nicely talked about the differences in tanking for the levels.

One Important error. The level 4 secondary powers for all tanks have been switched with the level 3 taunts. Unfortunately, the hero builders have not caught up with the change yet. For Super Strength, this means that Haymaker is now available at level 4 instead of level 10, and Taunt is now not available until level 10.

I would suggest maybe adding some other builds, showing standard-type builds for various purposes. Try showing a Team Tanker build, a Solo Scranker build and a PvP oriented build. You have made a few choices others may not recommend, like taking RPD before TI, or taking Provoke instead of Taunt. It might be useful to show how your recommended build differs from more standard builds, and why you did things the way you did. Another suggestion is that you can make your build with the expectation of making changes at the time of a respec. A very few guides have actually given pre-respec builds and post-respec builds.

I have an Invul/Axe, and I am choosing in my respec to skip the passives so I can squeeze in the medicine pool. This turns me into a "regen Scranker," which is an effective choice under the current state of Tanks. I think I can heal back more than the damage I would resist with the passives, but it requires more strategy.

Lots of great stuff here. Thanks for the hard work. There are very few post-I-6 tank guides out there, so this was badly needed!

This is a really nice advanced guide . . . and I plan to print it out and use it -- a lot. Added to Favorites!

I love using binds, especially when I get responses like, "How did you do that so fast?"

For Illusion or Mind Controllers:

Don't cast Deceive/Confuse on the bad guy that the Blaster just shot to pull. He is just going to turn around and run back. (I have done this one . . . my bad!)

If you are playing with an Illusion or Mind Controller:

If the controller has cast Deceive/Confuse on a bad guy who can buff your team or mez the bad guys, don't kill him first. Treat him the way you **should** treat an anchor, and let him do his thing, at least until Deceive/Confuse is about to run out.

Overall a nice guide. I have an Earth/Kin on Liberty, only level 16 at the moment. I rolled him because I liked my idea for his name, "Dirt Napper."

One thing that needs to be stressed: Earth controllers are one of the worst solo characters. You could try to take Stone Prison slotted for damage, but there really is very little damage until Stoney. As you note, Stoney is not that great until he can be speed boosted and Fulcrum shifted. I find that I have to team anytime I am on with Dirt Napper. Since I added a pool power attack, I actually can solo in a pinch, but it is not really enough. (I temporarily took Flurry as a prerequisite for Super Speed instead of Hasten, but I plan to respec out. It gives me a little bit of damage to make use of Containment.)

Also, next time you write a guide, you may want to run it through your word processor first. You have a number of misspellings that distract from the points you are making. For Example:

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(There is still a stain on my keyboard where I sneezed coffee out my noose because of this)

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How do you sneeze coffee out of a rope around your neck? Obviously you meant "nose," but it distracted from a funny moment.

I might suggest adding some more strategy suggestions, or things that you tell your teammates to get them to understand your powers and strategy. I have a series of macros which I use to explain what I am doing until the team gets the idea. You could also add some sample builds. The numbers on the powers are also nice, but not everyone is into numbers.

Generally, my Earth/Kin is pretty much a pure support character, and does not take much advantage of Containment. At my low level, I often lay down Quicksand between us and the group of baddies, then tell the blasters/defenders to pull them to us. This really takes advantage of Quicksand's -def. As soon as they run far enough into the Quicksand, I hit them with Stone Cages and use Fossilize on the tough guys. I then fire off Siphon Power, Siphon Speed and Transfusion as needed.

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I can't make any sense of this guide. I can't evaluate whether it is correct or confused as the language is so ... broken.
-Teklord

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Actually this brings up a something I am looking for
anyone point me to a decent guide or descrip on Damage Resistance vs Defense.

I did a poor job trying to splain it to some noobs in SG and realized it would be good to post on our website

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Take a look at Catwhoorg's guide, linked in his signature above, for a great analysis of Defense vs. Resistance.

Regarding the OP's bad spelling: He was trying to get some information out that is often misunderstood. Yes, the difficult spelling and grammar is distracting and makes the post harder to understand. However, some people on these boards have English as a second language, and a few actually have a learning disability. We should encourage folks to write well, but be nice about it since we don't know that person's background.

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whay are pistols so asked for? Is there some popular preteen pistoleer cartoon hero I don't know about?? I mean of all the boring low graphical effect powersets to ask for...
yeesh.

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I can think of two classic comic book characters:

The Phantom (Pistols/SR and a really ugly costume)
The Shadow (Pistols/Dark Armor -- "What evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!")

Both movies were lame, but the comic strips are classics. Pistols would lend itself to characters of the '30s and '40s, including Indiana Jones-type adventurers or western cowboy characters (no Brokeback Mountain comments needed!).

Great changes! Thank you!!

Listen to Screwloose . . . he is actually right some of the time!

The OP's suggestion of using humor is a good one. I think my favorite groups have been where each player tries to "one-up" the others. We quickly no longer care about XP, and care more about Comi-D.

When playing lower level characters with newbies, I usually try to set up a series of macros to explain important things to Pick-up groups, like how some of my powers work, or some suggested strategies. I bury these in higher level power bars, so I only pull them out when needed before the mission or during a brief break in the fighting. It seems to work pretty well.

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Controller:
Manager, helper, protector, bodyguard, sweeper, meatshield (with pets), supplier.


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You missed a key one. My Illusion/Kinetics Controller with Superior Invisibility and Super Speed is the ultimate Scout. Add in Deceive, and you have a great way to mark the target without drawing aggro!

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These are good tips, but this is all pretty much common sense, isn't it?

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Well, his name is "Dr. Obvious," isn't it?

Actually, often in larger teams, the killing is so fast that a Rad defender or controller will not have time enough to put down the RI/EF debuffs before the potential anchor is killed.

If you have a Mind or Illusion controller on the team, one of the best tricks is to Confuse/Deceive the AV (it may take several attempts), and let the AV take out all of his minions before you deal directly with the AV. For example, my Ill/Rad will cast Deceive on the AV (draws no aggro!) and then cast RI and EF on the AV. This will have him take out his minions while debuffing them.

Nice, nice work on the formulas (and I actually followed it, as many moons ago, I was a math major). However, this to me is almost more like economics, in that so many factors have to be "assumed," that these calculations are more like an educated guess than an absolute.

I love Deceive/Confuse. Even if it cost XP per minute, I would still use it because it is so much fun. However, I have to give one point to the naysayers. In a given mission, there is usually a certain amount of XP. Ignoring the time element, using Deceive/Confuse will in fact reduce the total XP available to the team, even if it may help the team complete the mission faster. Personally, I believe it is a very small reduction, as confused bad guys cause a very small percentage of the overall damage.

On the other hand, Deceive/Confuse can be a big part in avoiding debt. If you assume (there is that word again!) that the team has avoided one or more deaths thanks to the use of Deceive/Confuse, then you have to add that damage back in. It is also very hard to quantify the other benefits of Confuse/Deceive, in terms of changing enemy debuffs into your team's buffs, etc. How do you calculate the benefit of changing a Sky Raider's Force Field from the bad guys to your team? It increases the damage you are able to do to the enemy, while decreasing the damage done to your team, but on a nearly random basis.

Another aspect that is impossible to quantify is the effect of the power being used by an experienced, skilled player or a novice. Add to all this the key point that you are making, that Confuse/Deceive lets you do more damage faster, allowing you do complete more missions (or more hunting) faster, and it is easy to see that teams are going to be better using Confuse/Deceive than not using it.