Johnny_Butane
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Posts
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I wanted to start a discussion and have a little rant based on part of a quote Positron made in another thread rather than derail that one:
Quote:I just want to point out that virtually every single popular super hero is a TankMage to some degree. They can fight, they can sustain themselves in battle and depending on how much leeway you give for the definition of buff/debuff support, they do that too.I was told that this was done this way so that powers that targeted allies/other players could easily exclude yourself as a potential target. This was done to promote more "team play" as many of the original designers had a distaste for tankmages and/or 3rd Ed D&D Clerics (can buff/heal/do everything by themselves).
Indeed the very definition of a super hero involves being super powerful. That involves a wide range of skills and powers. Even super heroes with an extremely narrow suite of powers find ways of using them to a huge range of effect. The Flash only possesses super speed, yet he has found application for this as direct damage, crowd control, and even buffing teammates by granting them temporary speed with the Speed Force.
In my opinion, the hard line those early designers took against this is both one of the biggest mistakes and greatest blessings of this game.
It was one of the biggest mistakes because it's a huge wet blanket and straitjacket restricting otherwise valid concepts. The notion that someone can master the katana yet can't buy a couple of 45s at the local WalMart doesn't jive in the same genre that has a man who dresses like a bat and manages to be a skilled escape artist, detective, hand to hand fighter, swordsman and is also a crack shot with a thrown weapon while being a survival and stealth expert.
And yet, without such restriction I don't think the game would have survived its early years. I think we have a much stronger groundwork now and enough critical mass to sustain ourselves but we wouldn't have gotten to that point if we hadn't had these early training wheels.
Which is why I'm all for starting to take those training wheels off now. Make no mistake, I think the current devs feel similarly and have been progressing in that direction. Starting with the IO system they've slowly been letting people be more sustainable, do more damage and lend a small degree of support on ATs that previously couldn't. The Incarnate system made further progress. Now any AT can have a nuke, do debuffs, have what amounts to a defensive tier 9, heal/buff others and have pets. In Issue 7 when I returned to this game, suggesting such a thing could ever happen was heresy.
The i24 power pool changes to pools like Fighting, the new Blaster sustainability initiative and the addition of Martial Combat further allow players to realize their concepts. Sorcery and new pools surely to follow also blur the lines and I couldn't be happier about it.
I hope the developers continue to grant players more freedom to realize their characters the way they want to. This includes expanding on the power pools and epic pools to give us options that are more plentiful and viable, adding more power sets like Martial Combat that fill conceptual niches. I think they're doing a fine job moving in the direction they seem to be going in, if not a little slower and more conservatively than I'd personally like. If anything, they need more money thrown at them.
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Quote:I don't agree with that. I think there should be a few more options for players to deal with debuffs, -recharge included, but I I don't think it has to be as easy as a Break Free. I'd rather see a global unique IO or a new/reworked pool power or some such that grants a small measure of debuff resistance.Originally Posted by Issen
I'd add that Break Frees should negate -Recharge as well
My rationale behind having Break Frees remedy movement debuffs is because as far as I'm concerned, how is a ton of stacked -runspeed any different than being immobilized? Functionally, they're the nearly same...except that you can't pop a Break Free to dispel it. And if you're going to have the inspiration give one travel power a free pass, you may as well have it do the same for the others.
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Quote:It wasn't changed recently based on the the page history.Originally Posted by BrandX
When I looked before, that said Earth Control. I wonder if it was changed recently.
Perhaps you're confused with classic Shadow Hunter, who does use Earth powers.
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Quote:Just musing, not a totally serious suggestion, but how broken would it be if they rolled green inspirations into Break Frees but with a fixed cap on how much mez protection popping multiple would grant?Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
You can't potion while mezzed without an anti-mezz potion. Here's where it comes full circle. While getting mezzed is certainly dangerous, what makes it extremely powerful for enemies is it blocks the use of any potion except a specific one, in a game based on infinite potions to get you through alive. Think about this for a second. A Scrapper can generally eat a green, purple, orange or whatever no matter what she is fighting. Not so anyone who is easily mezzed. If you could eat greens, purples, and oranges while mezzed, surviving it would be much easier.
Or even have existing Break Frees grant a measure of Absorb?
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Quote:That may be a little too much work. A simpler method, and one I think would be easy to implement* would be that if you are mezzed, every time you press the jump button you recieve 1 point of protection for Hold, Immobs, Disorient, Sleep and Fear, lasting 5 seconds each and stacking up to however many times.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
First I absolutely agree with the OP, but I'd like to add something:
I believe that if complete status protection for all characters isn't an option, those without protection should be able to actively remove mez. ie: "Stunned! Press the following random sequence of keys in the order that they pop up in order to break the stun!" "x!" "a!" "b!" "Success! Stun broken!" This would add a whole new level of active play to the game while ridding unfair "perma mez" situations that aren't challenging, since you don't even have the opportunity to be challenged when you can't move or react in any way.
That would allow people to break out, give players a ~5 second reprieve from further mez, preventing chain mezzing. Confuse and Placate are exempt because, by and large, they don't prevent a player from acting to save/heal themselves and Knock/Repel are exempt because they are not exactly a mez you can break out of.
*Yes, I know the devs hate that phrase.
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A few Coffee Talks ago, someone asked a question about giving Blasters mez protection as part of their upcomming buffs. The reply was that this wasn't going to happen, but the devs voiced their opinion that the mez system could stand up be updated/modernized (I don't recall the exact phrasing).
This past weekend I dusted off some long-neglected characters and ran them through some Double XP. I usually play melee ATs and last weekend reminded me why. With that fresh in my mind, I'd like to present my opinion on what's wrong with the current system.
First, in general the feeling I get is mez is far too effective when enemies employ it against players than when players employ it against enemies. This is because the enemies are stacking the Hell out out of it, rapidly and repeatedly, from multiple sources while you as a single player can only cast it as fast as your powers recharge. If you are faced with just two mezzing enemies on equal ground and you yourself can mez, you can loose this encounter. While you are attempting to mez one enemy, and he you, even if it's a draw, the second enemy will keep mezzing you even while the first frees himself.
Furthermore, there are simply too many player powers the "don't do what they're supposed to". Now, I put this in quotation because while the powers in question may be working as intended, they fail to work far too often in my opinion: Fear powers that don't fear the target when I use them. ST Immobs that don't immobilize. Confuse powers that fizzle.
Now, the actual reasons for these powers failing can be varied, and that's part of the problem in my opinion. First, the enemy can simply be resistant to that kind of mez because that's their schtick. Second, the conning/Rank systems comes into play. Third, missing/accuracy checks means your power may not have even reached the target.
These three conditions feel far too random to me. If a player is trying to learn how to approach a gameplay situation, say, what kind of mez power is effective to use on Trolls, the other two conditions just obfuscate the issue and they learn little from their failure.
Also, regarding the Rank system versus mez; I fail to see the need for single target mez powers that are not effective on at least Bosses. Rarely do I have to mez a single Minion. Yes, there are edge cases like Sappers, but in general if I'm mashing Scare it's because a Boss is running right at me.
So, with all that said, here are some suggestions/ideas
-Reduce the number of conditions for mez to fail when players use it. This means removing protection of some kinds of mez from some enemy groups that cover too wide a range or making some mez powers work more reliably on Bosses. Or even consider making a few of them autohit so accuracy isn't a fail point.
-Provide easy to understand feedback why the mez is ineffective and why it failed. As simple as having "Resisted" in text appearing over the target's head if they have protection for that mez type and "Ineffective" if that mez power doesn't work on that Rank of foe.
-Prevent chain mezzing of players by granting players a brief period of mez protection after they're freed, even if it's just the mez timer running out.
-This may not fit with the vision of the game, but perhaps allow a way for players to break out of a mez faster by tapping a button. A very arcade-like mechanic but I feel it would be more productive than players furiously trying to combine inspirations into a Break Free or sitting there unable to do anything while being chain mezzed.
-This is just a pet peeve of mine, but allow Break Frees to cancel out -Fly, -Jump and Run Speed debuffs.
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Quote:I'd like to highlight some quotes from this video:Originally Posted by Zaloopa
If you want to see it in action here's an old Video.
"You should notice that during combat he remains moving. You don't get locked down in combat. Over all, fighting is much fiercer and much more furious then then you would find in other games."
"You're going to be jumping, teleporting, flying all around. The enemies will be doing the same"
Sounds great. What happened to that combat? Sadly, it was buried under a pile of mez, rooting and movement suppression.
Also, we see stuff like buildings with real interiors, Hazard Zones being worthwhile to actually go to, a cloud layer in Steel and battle stances.
On the other hand, eight years later we still have the same crappy Council/Column bunker maps, same old textures and costume part, same special effects and animations for those powers, same stiff running animation, same lack of fingers.
In many ways, some things haven't improved since that video and in some ways, that game looks and sounds a lot more fun to play.
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Quote:That was done already. Its called Titan Weapons.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I personally think the best long-term fix for Super Strength is a completely new set, in the vein of Martial Arts splitting off into Street Justice.
TW apparently performs better than SS and illustrates the concept of having super human strength better than SS does because TW has you lifting and wielding something very heavy, something SS doesn't.
As long as we can't throw cars, punch enemies through walls or batter them with lamp posts, SS will always be found wanting. Because the only other way to show superior strength is to have its attacks do much more damage than the next set. Indeed, being so iconic I expect SS to be the crown jewel of melee sets. But the reality is it's an old set with old animations, other sets do better stuns, better knock and better damage yet it still comes under fire by the nerf herders so that poses a bit of a conundrum.
Chalk it up yet more reasons why we need a CoH 2; environmental interaction/destruction and better execution of existing power sets. And yes, I would re-roll my SS characters for a 'CoH 2' but I won't re-roll them for a "Premium Super Strength 2" set in this game. I wont reward the devs with more money by buying a new set that intentionally makes my existing characters obsolete because they wont/can't make the changes needed to the existing set.
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My thoughts:
-I would give Rage the Fiery Embrace treatment and split the damage buff with bonus smashing damage instead. It would grant a damage buff of 40% and add 50% of the base damage of a Super Strength's attack in bonus damage. The 40% damage buff would stack when you stack Rage, but the 50% in bonus damage wouldn't, thus taking some of the potency out of doublestacking + non-SS attacks.
On the upside, SS gains more damage over the cap, while still suffering the increased end drain from the crash.
-I don't want Jab turning into a quick little attack. That doesn't fit the feel of super strength at all to me. If anything, the set needs a second heavy hitting attack besides KoB. I'd vote for lowering Hurl's cast time and increasing its damage before I'd touch Jab.
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Quote:Again, I don't think Tankers necessarily need more damage.Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Tanks should do more damage because their primary role can be handled by other ATs.
Increasing Tanker damage output to narrow the gap between them and the other melee ATs - of which we currently have two too many - is less invasive than lowering the damage of three other ATs. Or even one.
Tankers are not broken. They're superfluous. That's almost worse.
-They need higher damage caps to bring them in line with Brutes.
-They need something that makes them more like the powerhouse badasses they are in comics.
-They need something to woo the majority of players, for which aggro control and being a low damage decoy isn't enough of an incentive to play Tankers.
-They need something that improves how multiple Tankers stack.
-They need a massive image makeover.
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Quote:Yes:Originally Posted by Gunbunny
Is there an anouncement why they are down?
"We didn't do the regular maintenance Thursday morning like we are supposed to so we're going to start it today right at the time we said Double XP would begin that we set weeks ago instead of doing it last night or two or three hours earlier so it wouldn't eat into time people probably set aside in well advance for leveling based on the start time we gave but didn't adhere to.
We apologize for this easily avoidable and unnecessary inconvenience but not really."
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Just remove the prerequisites on the power pool powers and leave the level requirements; level 6, level 14, etc.
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Quote:It doesn't change the discussion, but as far as I'm concerned, it further validates my position.Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
Alright then, here's an upcoming change: Do you think the i24 proliferation of Resistance bonuses changes this discussion?
They keep handing out more and more survivability to everyone. This both makes Tankers less relevant for tanking and makes it even more hypocritical to punish them greatly with low damage for having survivability when they hand out survivability to everyone else and don't make them take a sizeable damage hit for it. It also brings Brutes even closer to Tankers in terms of survivability while the damage gap remains the same.
For my Tanker buff arguments I love the change because it's just more fuel to the fire.
For the sake of the game and power creep... well, that's a whole other thing.
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Quote:A proc that's hooked up to a physical light switch at the Paragon Studios offices.Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
What would you like instead of debt protection set bonus?
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Quote:I agree, but probably not for the same reasons.Originally Posted by Starsman
This is going to be BAD.
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Quote:The prisoners already roam the streets, they should take it to the next logical step. Turn Brickstown into a hazard zone. Evacuate the civilians, close the gates and turn the whole zone into a prison with the Zig becoming a control center fortress because, ironically, it would then be the only place without inmates.Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
I *LIKE*!
Especially the whole Prison Break thing. I've always found it entertaining that the Prisoners have broken out, and what do they do? Stand around the place shouting about how glad they are to get out, and no way no how are they going back in...
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Quote:Silly. All of my Tankers have been gathering dust, because, well...Incarnate system + Brutes.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
As you're a Tank, I assume you had it set to -1?
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Quote:I blew through i23's content in two evenings, literally while I was eating dinner with one hand on the second night.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Knowing what's coming in an Issue is not the same as playing through it
I said i25 is still something to look forward to.Quote:Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZimAren't you just a fountain of positivity?
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...so there was nothing in the Capone's vault but some empty gin bottles.
Seriously, most of the surprise was spoiled by the devs in the weekly Coffee Talks so this feels entirely anticlimactic. I hope the beta starts today or tomorrow, because this is beginning to drag. We all know i25 is the 'big one', anyways.
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Quote:Well, there's Super Reflexes which has a movement boosting passive.Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
I'd still like to see a better way to do Superspeedsters like the Flash.
Currently the only way to get unsupressed superspeed in combat is Kinetics (Siphon Speed), which does not reward you for zipping around dodging and using melee attacks. I've played Kineticists and jousted with Sands of Mu, and it feels great but isnt very effective.
I've tried a few times to accumulate movement set bonuses and slot sprint for combat mobility on melee characters, and it never feels quite fast enough.
A Superspeed defence set with a built-in movement boost toggle would be awesome.
I think there's definitely room in the game for a Super Speed Melee set that, like Dual Pistols, uses the 'blur' effect and makes it look like you're moving around fast with the animations. I can see attacks like a proper Flurry of Punches, also winding up and dashing past your target followed by several attacks from different angles. Another TP charge charge attack. A 'whirlwind' attack where, rather then you spinning like a top, you run circles around the target causing them to lift into the air and then you let them drop. Oh yeah, there's a lot of cool things they could do with a Speed Melee set, but the animation workload would be pretty heavy on it.
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Quote:Which is why we need more epic/tertiary pools, they need to be deeper and they need to come into play sooner.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
All the EATs, technically. And in extremely limited ways. Energy Blast/Invul character? Nope. Dual Pistols/Super Reflexes? Nope. Assault Rifle/Willpower? Negatory.
There is a TON of concepts locked behind that barrier.
We allow Scrappers to get Fire Blast and Fire Ball, so there's technically no reason they couldn't have roughly equivalent powers like Power Blast and Explosive Blast or Dual Wield and Bullet Rain or [insert Assault Rifle attacks here]
And seriously, it's not going to break a Brute if they could get Laser Eye Beams at level 12 as opposed to level 40-something.
Epic pools need to be rethought, revamped and vastly expanded on
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Quote:I asked on the beta server why the doppel tech couldn't be used to make large statues/hologram monuments of us and was told by one of the devs it could not and they couldn't do that.Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
seems like an expanded use/refinement of doppleganger tech.
That or Paragon's really investing in those statues so they can even have the powers of the hero they mimic.
It looks like they were wrong.
So, if they can make doppelgangers transparent and invert the colors, could they also make them all gray or metal?
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Quote:I'll disagree there.Originally Posted by Psiphon
So there goes the build flexibility (for non positional defence builds), that Tanks had.
Given the caps that Brutes have I can see no reason to build any melee AT except a brute - other than for play style.
Stalkers present a very different play style and performance from the other three melee ATs now. They are very much their own animals compared to the other three melee ATs.
Scrappers, I'll admit how people can see they lost some of their uniqueness with the increased focus on Criticals on Stalkers, but I've always thought the appeal of Scrappers was how...uncomplicated they are. Attack. Attack. Attack. Without regard for a Fury bar or Assassin's Focus combos or teammates/patrols/their own HP. If I had my druthers I'd have given Bruising to Scrappers(instead of Tankers) on all their attacks (called 'Wounding' or something) and lowered their damage slightly to compensate so they broke more or less even. Then they'd have something that Stalkers didn't and would contribute more to a team.
Regardless, Stalkers becoming good certainly hasn't really hurt the Scrapper population numbers. Yet. It's something to keep an eye on.
Tankers...yeah.
The core problem is that we have too many melee ATs. IMO, we only really need two; Stalkers and Tankers, the two extremes. Of course they're not about to remove Scrappers and Brutes from the game, so that leaves us back at square one.
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Quote:I wish they had custom animations to allow all the hand blast sets (Fire, Elec, Ice, etc) to fire from a gun, and allow Beam Rifle, Laser rifle from Bots, etc to fire from your hands as well as other emanation points (eyes, chest, etc). And being able to spit bullets from your mouth with Assault Rifle or Dual Pistols too while they're at it.Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I actually thought last night that they should put in alternate animations for Beam Rifle and it would work great as an optical beam set. Yeah, yeah, it's called "Beam Rifle," but they could always rename it.
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They should have got Michael Ironside.
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