EvilRyu
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Posts
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Quote:You keep saying supply outstrips demand but the supply is infinite now. Second if manipulation or price fixing wasnt going on we would get to see what the real demand is. Until manipulation is pulled out of the equation all supply demand arguements you marketeers keep using are null and void. If the items sells fast its not your job to police the supply of it. Its just as bad as some of the users here who think they are mods. If it all sells out that gives the next seller the advantage to sell some what higher in response to the true demand and not the manipulated demand. Thats how its supposed to work and thats how it works on games where you get to see the listed price.Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You've been told this time and again. Weren't you listening?
Because demand outstrips supply. Both natural drops and through artificial generation (tickets, merits, A-Merits).
Because some people are impatient. They don't WANT to invest the time into generating those recipes themselves. They'd rather pay a premium price to have it NOW.
Because some people have MASSIVE coffers of inf. Because 500 million isn't even a fraction of a percent of their total wealth.
Because, if other sellers are pulling down 9 digits on a recipe, why the hell should another seller settle for 100 inf?
See the reasons above. Simply because someone can take several months and several hundred million inf to produce a recipe does not mean they will.
The fact that you're griping so hard about this implies you're one of this unfortunate population statistic.
No. It's not. Were everyone being industrious and knocking out morality missions left-right-and-center, cashing in merits, etc, etc, etc. Sure, you might be right.
But they're not. You have several classes of player whom don't do this.
As such, they're reliant on the market for their supply. And, if they want it now, they pay correspondingly higher prices.
Stop blaming seller greed for what is, actually, buyer greed.
If it goes for that price long enough, then that IS what it's going for. Remember, the sale price is set by the buyer.
Wrong. Flippers help stabilize supply and pricing. If Recipe X is going for 100 inf and is in heavy demand, the market supply will soon be exhausted. A flipper, by acquiring large stocks of the desirable item, ensure that, with their higher pricing, that the item is still available down the road to other players. They also set a barrier of entry against dilettante hoarders. -
Quote:Again thats if and only if someone comes along and lists it lower. If they dont then his arguement still holds merit. The thing is with items that are not put on the market as much it would be easy to do this since it would be a really long time before another one was placed there making the 1 inf very unlikely to happen. In all honesty I think the bulk of the problem overall is ignorance in the playerbase. So many people do not even know about Fort Trident or whatever teh villain equivalent of that is. Some dont even know about the merit vendors. If the playerbase knew what the forum people knew so much of this would not be happening in the first place.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Your knowledge: market mechanics: lacking
Consequence: your argument: invalid
When the market executes the highest bids are matched to the lowest sales. If you listed the recipe for 500million and then bought a bunch on another character you wouldn't get the sale, the person who has it listed for 1 inf would.
Now you can theoretically do it by listing yours for 1 inf and setting a buy order on the same character for 1 inf to clear out any others but at the end of the day so what? As Hyperstrike said the market rewards patience and insight. If someone artificially boosts the apparent price and you don't care to bid creep well, that's the laziness tax.
Now as it happens I am in favor of providing some protection against this sort of thing. Not because I consider seeding the last 5 to be a problem but because I feel that decreasing the "stickiness" of market prices would be a good thing. My suggestion is to provide more information than the last five, specifically High/Low/Average prices for the last 24 hours and 7 days. -
Quote:Its exactly why the double blind system needs to go. Having it lists the buyers and sellers it makes people accountable. I know in other games if your caught doing this you are blacklisted by many of the guilds and having the names listed easily helps you to avoid some of the RMT sellers with the gibberish names. Another thing that would help in all this is adding a creator tag to all the finished enhancments so you can see who made it too as it helps with getting repeat business on certain finished products.Originally Posted by Cully
So.. I put up 5 (Insert craptastic recipe here) for 500mil a piece, then log into an alt with an email infusion of cash handy, and artificially inflate the price of said item to 500m per, while paying myself to do so, only missing out on the transaction costs, BUT, i have now just set the price for this recipe at 500m to everyone else that gets to see it. Now, taking those 5 recipes I turn around and put them back up on the market (after having just bought them from myself) and sell them again, this time to a poor sap that actually thinks that's just the price he's gonna be forced to pay cuz well... obviously 5 other people had to as well....
Now do this for a week.
Yes, you are now the problem on the black market.
Your argument: Invalid
My Position: Unassailable
Reason: It's my rant.
I hear what you're sayin man, but seriously, the poor "oh i only list for 1inf, it's not MY fault it sold for 190m" argument falls so flat with me it's probably as ridiculous and "over the top" as you feel about our frustrations with the market. So... we're all happy with being unhappy. -
Just for the record I need to say this, I do not care as much as I did when this crap first started happening simply because I avoid the market at all possible cost, right now its just used for storing stuff since they got rid of the 60 day rule on active accounts. True enough I may miss out on an easy source of inf but I refuse to contribute to the market greed. I would sooner destroy the recipe or give it away to some one who actually needs it then to feed this problem and make it worse.
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Quote:I never said you did what you do for profit. I said its just market pvp and some people do it just to be a ****** at times. How about if you all just stopped and left the market alone for 1 entire month, how would things look. If you never set those last 5 to be crazy high people would be able to start their bidding alot lower to get what they want.Originally Posted by Arbegla
I repeat. Its Imposssible to flip the entire stock of items on the market and make a profit.
Its as simple as that. the reason non purple items go for upwards of 40 million is because those items are extremely useful (Aegis providing 4.7% AOE def, obliterations adding damage, and acc, and recharge, AND def, etc etc) thus they are more valuable. I can list an obliteration recipes for 1 inf, and it'll sell for over 20 mil. How is that MY fault as the marketeer?
We (the marketeers) DO NOT SET PRICES. The BUYERS set the prices. If people are too stupid to realize the last 5 prices listed are not a correct statement for what things are going for, then how is it our fault? -
Quote:Yeah they are running the market. Its why things are screwed as they are now. You can spout all that supply and demand bull **** on recipes all you want but all that went out the window the minute devs create merits/ea tickets, and to a greater extent A-merits. Seriously why do we have Non-purple/pvp recipes going more than 40 mill? Ever since we got A-merits that should have been the absolute cap on those items. Reason being ebil marketeers plain and simple.Originally Posted by Arbegla
Do you honestly believe 'flippers' are ruining the market, when the BUYERS make the prices? I can buy things at 10 inf, and list them at 1000 inf, and probably sell them pretty easily, but there is not a whole lot of money to be made in that. Heck, i poured about 3 billion inf into controlling regenerating fleshes one day, and i couldn't keep my high prices for longer then an hour. And i made 0 profit doing it.
The money isn't made in flippers. its made in converting recipes to enhancements, and taking advantage of the rich and lazy. Recipe goes for 100k, crafting fees are about 500k, and salvage runs you another 200k. so 800k, and you can easily craft and list that recipes for over 8 million. Now that's some profit. multiply that by 10, or 20 or 30 and now your rolling in it.
The market is just fine, just because YOU can't use it like a store, doesn't mean its not working correctly.
You can try to sugar coat it any way you want but essentially thats what it is.
If people see a manipulated price long enough they start to think thats really whats its going to go for. If you some how kept the price of those items you messed with like that for a couple of weeks then you would have tricked enough people into believing thats the price and it probably would have stuck. The reason its harder at the high levels because the supply for salvage being generate is huge compared to lower levels where people avoid magic foes and have little to no aoe killing power.
As for as using recipe to make enhancements I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact I encourage that because you are adding value to the recipe beyond what its value is by adding in the sub-components. Again I repeat if your making money off crafting recipes more power to you, take them for all their money for all I care because you are adding real value to item where as flippers just arent. -
Quote:Let me just say this, many of the folks here like the market pvp and the ideas you are wanting would put a stop to their fun. So you are not going to get much support for these ideas. Its always been my belief that this double blind system is what has made this market into a ceasepool of greed that has spawned the ebil marketeers. Had safe guards been in place prices on stuff would never get so high unless there was really true demand for the item instead of manipulated demand. Its also the reason why they devs had to impliment ways around the market (merits/EA Tickets) since some players hate to use it due to the greed aspect of it all.Originally Posted by Cully
Just linking this reply I had to another thread, before I realized this entire section of the forums existed. Basically, I want the BM changed. It's gettin to the frenzy want to get violent stage. Seriously. It's getting that bad.
We need to start a serious BM overhaul protest. It's starting to be a dealbreaker for me.
It's infuriating, frustrating, clunky, biased, and all around bullmalarky. And no one, no one, can justify differently.
Ideas:
1. Post the sellers GLOBAL name, and any other GLOBAL names their master NC Account pays for.
Desired resolution: This helps track down the farmers and the BM jackers, then everyone that plays the game can refuse to play with the jerk that makes this aspect of the game infuriating to the player base. The community will sort out the bad apples and the devs can easily boot/slap/punish/immolate/draw&quarter the BM Jerks.
2. Make listings time sensitve, 1 week max length, and the price you paid to list it is GONE FOREVER. This will incentivise sellers to put an actual reasonable price on their items instead of just listing something for an inflated price and letting it sit for months. It'll start costing them to try and jerk around the BM so they'll have to drop the prices in order to actually move their stock.
3. FOR THE AE/BM/UNIVERSITY: Ok seriously, for the love of all that is holy and dear to the world, can you not allow us to have our recipe window open at the same time we're trying to use the AE Ticket Vendor? It... well.. you know... makes sense that I would want the ability to SEE the recipe and required Salvage so I would know what to buy without needing to break out a pencil and notepad first. C'mon now.. Make it EASIER for us to use the game, instead of making it more time consuming and hassling to try and accomplish our goals. If you want, I'll raise 20billion infamy to build a University in Sharkhead, NEAR THE DOCKS/BM/AE/Ferry, why? Cuz then I have a central hub to utilize instead of having to zone here, or use a jetpack to fly up here, or etc etc. I mean, i like running around the zones as much as the next person, but after the 500000000th lap through Aeon City in Cap i'd really rather never set foot up there again, move the AE down to the University area.
I'm trying to enjoy the game, i really am, but its starting to feel like they're working harder at punishing the player, instead of rewarding them.
That being said what I would have done is make the market time sentive, giving you 2 weeks to sell stuff. You would see the actual sales price of said item, and the seller, and when it was last bought for last and by whom with globals. You as the buyer can pick who you are going to buy from since you can see the buyers and sellers. Once an item is bought it is tagged as non-sellable on the market for 2 weeks. The only way to remove this tag is to convert the item to something else like say a recipe to an enhancement. This would pretty much slow down the massive amount of flipping going on and such. True enough this makes it easier to do but with the 2 week limit its delayed money that they would be getting unless they choose to invest in the recipe to enhancement, in that case they are adding value to the item which I have no problem with since they are contributing at this point.
While there are concerns that folks would get your globals and harrass you but from my experience in other games that list the sellers and the prices this simply doesnt happen in a negative way. Often times if I am selling something in other games I might get a tell or email asking if I have more of the product and that they would be willing to buy from me directly instead of waiting for the market.
Well at this point in the game its way too late for them to add or change it to this but maybe when they are doing COH 2 or something they might consider this. -
Quote:I think more than that should have been done. If the nukes we have now if we are dealing with the end drain from it then nothing short of of +4 EB/AVs should live thru our nukes. Blasters as a whole do not do enough damage to justify their squishieness. I look at every other MMO that has a range class similar to ours and each one is 100 times more survivable out of the box compared to blasters and you dont have to worry about mobs every out ranging you.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I think the true nukes ought to lose both the -end and the -recovery. I also think the recharge on them should be lowered. But I've thought that for a long time, a long time.
It could be interesting to lower the recharge to 300 seconds for defenders and corruptors but 240 seconds for blasters. -
Quote:Me too. I do get the feeling that we will see something about unicron in this movie. There could still be the possibility of him doing galvitron at a later point.Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
As did I.
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Quote:What server you doing this on? I know myself and several others tried alot during this week to get this TF started and I was only able to run it once. Most of the time the response is "Its just not fun like the ITF" or "Its too hard for such little reward". Of the few who did respond on the other times we had to turn them away since they did not have their alpha slotted.Originally Posted by Wanted_NA
Uhm. I disagree totally. I do bouts of Apex/Tin Mage back to back a lot of the time and never have problem finding people for them. TFs are pretty fun, and not *that* hard, plus the rewards are great. I usually get both done in 45-60 minutes at most for 80 merits and "guaranteed [not counting the bug]" 4 shards. That's pretty damn good reward/time ratio.
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In all honesty both of those tfs need their rewards revamped by alot. So many folks now are saying screw the WSTF if its Tin Man. Its just not as fun as the ITF or even some of the other tfs. Personally I hate them both simply due to same old thing. +4s and cheating AVs does not make a fun TF at all. In contrast the incarnate trials are significantly easier to deal with because there is some safety with having more than 8 players. But those other TFs you simply could not pay people enough real money to even do them beyond the first time they get the badges. That should be a red flag right there.
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There are plenty of reasons to delete an alt. If they get nerfed into a oblivion and no amount of respecing will ever fix them then its ok to delete them. I had several like that in the past. But I got a few that I cant delete simply due to them getting hard to get badges but if they didnt have them they would be deleted.
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Title of the thread is so misleading. This had me thinking they were finally going to do the cross server thing they talked about many years ago. I was actually getting excited about this till I read the starting post of this thread. What a let down.
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Quote:OMG This x 1000000000Originally Posted by Dispari
So um, since the discussion is "Which would you take: Scrapper or Stalker," why would you go Stalker if they're worse? This argument seems to revolve around "The Stalker is only a little worse!" You're pretty much saying "Here is your choice: A Scrapper or someone who's only 10% less than a Scrapper. It's only 10%!"
Like if you offer me two sandwiches, one you took a bite out of, I'm not going to be swayed by the argument of "It's only a little less sandwich, come on!"
I could see the viewpoint that Stalkers are "enough," but the purpose of this thread is giving us the choice between Scrappers and Stalkers. "Stalker is only a little worse" doesn't answer the question of why you'd take a Stalker over a Scrapper.
EDIT: I had some time to kill while waiting on an LGTF to start. Blame the boredom.
You have won the thread with this pick. This needs to be our "lol stalkers" poster right here. Make a huge poster of this pic and send it to the devs. -
Quote:Grudge isnt the word I would use. I was furious when the set was butchered, ready to rage quit CoH. My name sake was Ma/invul so I stopped playing him for 2 reasons one was how much all the other primaries were better than MA and then the invul changes. As time progress MA got better but not to the point where I will pull my name sake out of retirement.Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
It sounds like he has a preference on what he likes to play and maybe a little bit of a grudge on what they've done to Invulnerability in the past.
I've done a Sara Moore TF on full tilt Scrapperlock on my MA/Inv and nearly went deathless. The final AV got two large hits on me and I was done in, my one single death on an, again, MA/Inv who's build is in the lower hundreds of millions rather the billions that my DM/Inv build is worth.
Forget about what it was like in the past, today's Invulnerability is pretty damn awesome in my book.
Small Edit: For me now its the about having a smooth ride to 50. I pretty much only play sets for that. There is one exception I have lowbie shield scrapper. Normally because the set is rougher to level I would have just got a friend to PL him up by doing a level pact but I need the hero merits to buy the +defense pvp IO. So that pretty much solo play mostly from 1-50 unless its a tf. -
Quote:Actually it is horrible set till its soft capped. Everyone knows this. It was one of the biggest complaints when it was in beta. But I have seen some amazing things with IOs set with this set. Its wonderful with IOs. Its one of the few sets where its the exception to the rule where its truely worth it at end game because its just that awsome with IOs. Dm/invul can never be any where close to this with IOs thats the difference.Originally Posted by rsclark
By that logic SD is crap. IOs can't do much without a set to build upon.
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Quote:I skimmed thru the video you were mostly fighting the drones, they already do piddly damage. Try this against say arachnos or carnies and then we will talk. Rikti are hardly an end game challege. Essentially the main damage type needs to be high hard hitting energy/n.energy/cold/fire damage or even all psi. Rikti are lethal energy and weak energy if you look at the drones. Also pick a map thats not a cave.Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
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Quote:But scrappers are not giving up extra powers for crits nor do brutes gain extra powers for fury. For stalkers its the combination of missing key powers and the hp difference.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Again, I'm not saying that Brutes ALWAYS out damage Scrappers. I'm saying that Scrappers do not ALWAYS out damage Brutes. Even with the Brute changes, Brutes still outdamage Scrappers on the edge case where they have 75% Fury, and no external or stacking damage buffs.
Since the claim is that Stalkers should ALWAYS outdamage Scrappers, I'm pointing out that Scrappers do not ALWAYS outdamage Brutes. To be balanced, Scrappers should outdamage Stalkers as often as Brutes outdamage Scrappers.
If this is true of Brutes, it is also true of Stalkers. The ratio between Stalker and Scrapper HP is the same as the ratio between Scrapper and Brute HP. -
Well that game is not as bad as he is making it out to be. But I will say he is right on one thing and thats the character creation not being so great. As for as the kill missions, practically every MMO has these so I dont see what the problems is there.
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Quote:But given how long it takes them to creep it up the server will be shut down before stalkers ever get up to par. I swear its going to take me going to one of those comic con things to talk to the devs face to face to finally get real changes.Originally Posted by Dispari
The trick is, I think, a little at a time. Nerfing sucks, so a slow creep until you get to the point where you feel good about it is probably better than large damage buff leaps. Last time Blaster damage mod changed it only went up the same 12.5%.
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Servers are ordered from least to most when you first bring them up, not counting the one at the top. Use that as your guide if you want to know how populated they are. Medium to heavy population are ok just be aware of the virtue folk, they RP hardcore over there. Sometimes they RP so hard they gimp their builds just for the character concept. Like empaths with no ally buffs, petless masterminds and brute/stalker/scrapper/tanks with no mez protection.
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Empathy. Works 95% of the time the only time it does not the other sets would not be that much better anyways.
Least favorite trick arrow. Does not do enough debuffage to warrant having to use so many arrows. Stuff is usually dead before I can finish casting all that junk. -
Quote:Stalkers are some what easier to kill, thats kind of obvious on that one. Many powersets end up giving up crucial powers that would put them on par with scrappers. SR stalkers give up lucky which is scaling resists they need, the resists they get now will not save you. WP gives up Rttc for the self heal, but you would get more out of Rttc if you were in the thick of the group. I know the whole arguement back then when this set was in beta to not give it Rttc but since we have ways of suppressing toggles while hidden I seen no reason why it can be done now if they were to redo the set.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, I agree, but I'm pointing out the way I think the devs are thinking. First of all, Stalkers are NOT that much easier to kill. They have 10% fewer hit points. That's it. They can't get buffed to higher protection like a Brute can, and they can't buff their hit points very far, but otherwise they can be defensively buffed as well as a Scrapper can. Yes, they're fragile, as fragile as a Scrapper is compared to a Brute, but that doesn't make a Scrapper fragile.
Second, any time you can leverage a force multiplier to combine it with another force multiplier, that's when the devs get cautious. Often, overly cautious. Another example is the Sniper attacks Stalkers get, their animation time and damage base seem ridiculous, until you fact in that you can Crit them from Hide.
A straight, across the board raise in base damage, coupled with a decrease in Crit rate from 10% to 5% would produce pretty much the same numbers, but I think it would worry the devs more. For one thing, it is more consistent and less random. For another thing, well, it would just make the Crit characteristics of the Stalker equal to that of the Scrapper.
I'm not saying that Stalkers don't need something to compensate them for their lack of AoE damage. Which is as much a limitation of the design as a conscious choice on the part of the devs. But I'm not sure that simply making them the masters of single target damage is the solution, or that the devs are even willing to go that route. A base damage or +dam modifier boost wouldn't emphasise their single target damage anyway, it would raise their AoE damage as well, but only for those Stalkers that have it. So it would make things worse for the Stalkers that lack AoE at this time.
Perhaps instead, Build Up could raise the chance of Critical, or raise the damage that the Critical does in some way. Honestly, it would be neat to have a Critical do the 2.8x damage of an Assassin Strike if you lead in with a Build Up. Perhaps this could be a "proc", similar to the way Fiery Embrace is currently working.
I would have to say the main thing that killed stalkers was making them give up aoes for AS. If AS could be inherrent and the aoes put back for the ones that need them it would be a totally different ball game right now on many of these sets. -
Quote:Thats like 1 hit like this every 45 seconds or so, thats no where near enough. Personally I would rather they get rid of the chance of crit from hide on aoes and make it work on all attacks regardless. Yes that means crit on energy transfer and concentrated strike.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Again, it's not the Crit rate that is the issue. It's that a Stalker can, at will, follow a Build Up with a Critical on demand. A Scrapper cannot do that. Ever.
And before you say, "Using Placate will add even more to your animation time, reducing your DPS" remember that you are getting a 160% bonus to damage on top of double the base damage. Three slotted, with no other damage bonuses on you that's 275% damage (almost three times) for an additional 2.67 seconds animation time. Unless your attack is less than 1.5 s cast time you're coming out ahead.
With a 100% damage bonus, that would be 300%. Not that much more, sure, but you're already getting 127.5% more than the Scrapper with the same Build Up. -
Quote:If I were to do stalkers, I would make the damage mod at least 1.3 and at the same time raise blaster melee and range mods to that point. Stalkers and Blasters would have 125% version of build up. Then I would revist the scaling AS thing we had on test server for a few weeks. I would make it so it worked without screwing over the damage against minions and LTs. Then we have a fixed AT. I would then move on to fixing all the horrid powersets in the game.Originally Posted by Dispari
I tend to agree. As I said above, I have a Stalker. She's 32. I fiddle with her sometimes, but I won't pretend she's a great character. Every time I look at her I think about how she's inferior to my Brutes, Scrappers, and Widow in every way. I could build her up and IO her out, but that investment would be better placed into a better melee AT.
I can't pretend to assume I know exactly what's right for the class or could balance them immediately. But if I was in charge the first thing I'd do would be to make Stalker base damage 1.125 and their self-buffs enough that Build Up does +100% instead of +80%. And then see where that puts them.
Unfortunately, as you say, it seems the devs are happy with how unpopular Stalkers are.