Dechs Kaison
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Advising a tanker to supplement his attacks with crowd control abilities is not pigeonholing. The tanker's job is to keep mobs from attacking his teammates, and he should use all tools that are available to him to do so.Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Yeah... and you tell me something about pigeon holeing again. If bruteing isnt tanking then CC sure as hell isnt. Also, I'am not alone on a team and throwing around gimped mag2 CC is a total waste because thats the job of controllers and dominators.
Enforcing some sort of misguided idea that a brute needs to tank is pigeonholing. A brute's job is to kill things as fast as possible. Aggro is merely a tool he uses to reach maximum fury. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Problem is there is this little thing called "aggro cap". If you dive in first with your aggro aura and open with some kind of aoe attack which hits 10 targets you are most likely to hit the aggro cap of 16 enemies. Its impossible to tank absolutely everything, no matter how hard you try.The emphasized is simply not true. Like the other game aspects I assert that you fail at, there are intelligent ways to approach tanking that can work around the aggro cap.Quote:Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
I charge in first, I use my AoE's and then I focus with single target attacks on the bosses until the AoE's are ready again. When I see someone is in trouble or there are some adds while I'am not at the aggro cap I will use my Taunt. Concerning tanking there isnt much more one could do right now.
Many tank powers, especially those found in ancillary pools, afford controls, either knockdown, sleep, or hold. These enemies are not attacking teammates and therefor sufficiently "tanked."
Once at the aggro cap, new enemies can be added by shedding aggro of old enemies. By attacking hard targets like bosses more often and using heavy attacks to finish minions quickly, the most dangerous aggro around can be effectively controlled.
These are the things that constitute tanking. Effective aggro control throughout the encounter. Taking the alpha and dishing out damage is what brutes do, and is not tanking.
tl;dr Learn to play, Valkyrie. -
Quote:This is your opinion, not a fact. There is a clear difference in roles between that of a tank and that of a brute. Brutes focus on killing things before they kill teammates. Tanks focus on maintaining aggro control and surviving. Taking an alpha does not constitute tanking.Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
1) "I'am not tanking I'am bruteing" is nothing more then nitpicking. One doesn't even need that so much hated Taunt Button to tank in this game (although taking it will surely benefit a lot of teams). If you run in there first and stomp on the ground you are already tanking at least 10 enemies which is more then half of most spawns.
This is a fact, and a correct one at that. I have never seen this kind of brute, but that doesn't change the fact that one who behaves like this would be a bad brute.Quote:Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
2) A brute which doesn't want aggro because he thinks he is some kind of damage dealing squishy and has a hard time staying alive only because of aoe damage alone is a bad brute.
This is not a fact, it's a perception based on a misconception of the brute AT.Quote:Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
3) Most brutes with this "I dont have to tank" mindset fall into that category.
They get pokevoke, a watered down version of punchvoke, AKA gauntlet. Punchvoke is an AoE, pokevoke is single target. That said, I agree. The best brutes understand how to max out their fury in order to deal the most damage possible. This is their true purpose. Aggro is merely a means to an end, though, not a necessity.Quote:Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
4) You don't even have to discuss something like this with a good brute because he knows having at least the biggest chunk of the aggro is part of his AT. Thats why they get aggro auras, thats why they get punchvoke and thats also why they can pick an AoE Taunt in their primary.
Carnifax and I called out stupid plays, e.g. using AoE immobs like bread and butter. You called that judgmental. You're lying somewhere.Quote:Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
5) I never judged anybody, I just made my definition of a bad brute and spoke out my opinion.
Because you feel that using an AoE immob or fireball is always the best tactic, which are signature moves of the very worst players.Quote:Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
6) I'am sure most posters in this thread dont even fall into "category 2" and yet I'am the target for some stupid "brute is not a tank zealotry" and I'am being told I'am such a bad player and what not.
This is fact, however it is untrue. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have typed it, nor taken the time to fool yourself by typing "point seven."Quote:Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
7) Honestly, I dont care about point 6 because I knew it would come down to this even before I wrote my first post in this thread. But its amusing none the less. -
Quote:S'cuse me? Who came in here judging others for their refusal to be pigeon holed into a role THAT DOES NOT EXIST?!Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
Not that I care... but an impression you might get from a few forum posts has nothing to do with "facts" and you are in no position to judge my playstyle.
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You beat me to it.
Gratz.
Quote:Allow me.Originally Posted by heffroncm
IT'S...
nope, can't do it.
It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAANNNND!!!! -
Quote:As Carnifax pointed out, both of these are signature moves of really bad players. You're a villain, stop depending on other people and blaming your failures on them.Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
After something like ~10 seconds one could assume the brute should have enough time to build up aggro and that its save to throw an immob into the mobs without worrying. Hard CC isnt ready for every spawn during leveling you know...
Also this was just an example. If an Corruptor throws in his fireball its the same result... and most Corruptor secondary's dont have hard control either.
It's time to face facts, you are as bad or worse of a dom/corr player as you feel these alleged "don't want to tank" brutes are.Quote:Originally Posted by Valkyrie_EU
But this is not what most of those "I dont want to tank" brutes do, they behave like some kind of squishy.
Also, learn to multi-quote and don't triple post. -
Quote:There are generally two ways to build a character.Originally Posted by Purus
Call me weird but for me purpling doesn't always make for the most effective build
Survivability focus: This is generally done through defense.
Kill-ability focus: I made that word up, but essentially you want +recharge in heaps to be able to eatinate things.
Warshades are different in that they get their survivability from recharge bonuses, so purpling them is almost always the best way to go. -
The above build is over the top ridiculous, ugly, and the PvP IO alone will cost 2 billion or more.
That said, it's still pretty freakin' awesome.. -
Quote:No offense was taken, and there's no need to apologize. You saw something that didn't sit right with you and you called it out.Originally Posted by prev1
I realize the post was inflammatory, specifically to Dechs. I do apologize for that.
That's just it. Everyone can get defense, but very few sets have resist. This gives the resist sets much more potential than other sets, particularly DA with its large variety of esoteric resists and an amazing heal.Quote:Originally Posted by prev1
Outside of those, scads of survival tools come into play. Notably def. slotting. That has little/nothing to do with DA and is achievable with any AT or combo.
As Deth pointed out, this is a trap. No brute will ever match tanker hp/resist/def numbers on the same slotting as the equivalent tanker. Likewise, no tanker will match brute damage output on the same slotting with equivalent powersets. This is the balance; tanks and brutes only need to be tough enough to kill their enemies. Tanks last longer, but brutes kill faster. This isn't rocket surgery, and I'm sure you already know this. I'm just making my point painstakingly clear.Quote:Originally Posted by prev1
Please show me an /DA brute with tank hp/resist numbers, I'll gladly retract my thoughts on the comparisons.
I dare you to find one prominent player to claim that brutes can't be built "tough enough." -
Quote:Glad to hear the message is starting to sink in.Originally Posted by Santorican
When I scroll down the page I can still see dark armor sucks seared into my retinas lol.
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Quote:Fullscreen.Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
How do you play the game? What makes it fun for you? Do you always do radio/newspaper? Do you play it in Windowed Mode while talking to friends? Is Ventrillo involved, or do you full screen it and block out the rest of the world?
Winamp playing my favorites in the background (sometimes).
75% of the time, I log in and start a TF. I find the first seven people willing, and tend to run them at +2 (these days). I have reverse alt-itis, so I collect tons of merits on my tank and warshade, just waiting to kite out an alt I stumble on. I tend to end up with between 3 and 5 people that are "DKTF regulars" and usually have to turn a few people down for no other reason than the max team size is 8.
The other 25% of the time I spend RPing with the SG through missions and AE arcs, having fun with our concept characters that aren't always optimal for xp/minute, but they are when it comes to laughs/hour. -
Quote:I always smile when I hear that I've inspired someone. Thanks for letting me know.Originally Posted by Drane
Dechs, (LOL) Your video is the reason for all my sudden tank madness.
I am really pleased with fire's damage output. Without it, I couldn't have done some of the things I have been able to. I can solo the boss and guards of a +0/x8 mission/TF in a reasonable amount of time and +4 bosses (albeit in a less reasonable time). Like I said, though, any other set would have made for an even tougher tank. As it stands, I munch purples to stay above a cascading defensive failure. AoE knockdown could be used for the breath of fresh air I need to clear the debuffs instead. Nothing stops a tough boss in its tracks like a stacked stun, which I can't do either.Quote:Originally Posted by Drane
I really love fire's tier 2 power and I hate to give it up. But my gut tells me...I'm gonna need a little mitigation beacuse my build will be a slight different than yours.
At the end of the day, it came down to concept. I wanted to hit stuff with fire, not ice or a mace or my very strong arms. Sands was going to wield bright blue soul fire.
Some further thoughts on mitigation sets: Ice's sleep will be broken by your damage aura, but ice patch is amazing. Dark's -tohit gets resisted by higher level mobs and AVs. Axe gives you a lot of knockdown and still hits hard. Mace hits harder in AoE, has some knockdown, but can stack stuns. -
Any set will give you better mitigation, which is my only regret with my Dark Armor/Fire Melee tank. It is plenty survivable in its own right, but I know it could do better with added knockdown or stackable stuns. Elec and stone provide both, and are great options. Stone has less AoE damage, though.
Ice is the king of staying alive, especially for Dark Armor. Dark Melee is also a strong contender here, but the DM heal isn't much in comparison to Dark Regeneration. There is also the stackable fear and -tohit, though. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Minotaur
<nitpick> FM DOES of course change from tank to brute combustion -> cremate.I am well aware of the combustion difference, which is why I specifically called out two heavy AoE sets for comparison as well as said "more or less." Tankers having combustion, in my opinion, makes the set much better. At the very least, it becomes a much more AoE capable set.Quote:Originally Posted by tarrantm
Well there is the Combustion difference...
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Quote:I agree with everything you said, Sam, but the piece I quoted just kinda jumped out at me. Sounds like something Yogi Berra would say.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
There aren't as many maps as there seem to be, but there are more maps than people think.
"Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded." -
As always, comedic gold, Steelclaw.
Quote:It's infectious?! Kill it now! KILL IT WITH FIRE!Originally Posted by Street_Wolf
Edit: Oh god. One liner. With a wink. I'm turning into golden girl. D: -
Quote:Very much this:Originally Posted by Organica
So I've now purpled out a War Shade. What's left?
Now all that is left for your 'shade is to become The MFing Warshade (as explained in my guide).Quote:Originally Posted by FallenValkyrja
Get on a team running at +2x8 and see if you can get them to complain that they have nothing to do because the warshade is wiping everything out. -
Fury, I have an all human PB on Virtue that would qualify. If you do this on any other server, I think I'd be willing to roll up a storm/energy defender or an illusion/storm 'troller.
Quote:I have the sudden desire to do this to a hellion.Originally Posted by Korith
Hmm...8 force bolts, slotted for knockback, set on auto with a team leader and 7 team mates targetting through him or her.
The leader starts with no target selected, and then, suddenly, clicks on the AV -
Quote:My experience is relevant in the context of comparison. If a DA tanker can do things the other kinds of tanks can and some things they can't, then the same should ring true for brutes. All brute secondaries suffer the same AT modifier differences from tanker sets equally. My experience is proof that a DA tanker can be as survivable any other tank. That experience translates directly to brutes in that they can be built comparably.Originally Posted by prev1
Wanted to chime in with these posts Dechs. It would be much more relevent to the topic if you posted experience as a scrapper, those are the numbers that brutes share. I run a FM/WP brute, she mows down spawns. I wouldn't take her accomplishments over to the tank forum as a point of reference for how FM functions for tankers.
If you brought the FM brute's accomplishments into the tanker forum within the context of being better or comparable to elec or war mace, then yes, that is a point of reference for how FM functions for tankers. Since the AT mods change but the powersets do not, FM should compare to ELM in more or less in the same manner on brutes and tanks and scrappers. -
Quote:Yes, easier.Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
As far as putting IOs in the toon; for defense wise, I'm guessing it'd be better (easier?) to try to cap S/L dmg instead of Melee/Ranged/AoE, correct?
If you had to chose S/L or Melee, S/L is better.
If you had to chose S/L or Melee/Ranged/AoE, then M/R/A is clearly better. -
I can tell you for sure that it will be more survivable than dark/fire, and the AoE damage will be about on par, if not better. You will only be lacking in single target damage.
Elec melee has knockdown a plenty and stuns to stack with OG. -
Quote:You only need a little over 110% global recharge to get an extra 70% full time. I still agree that in most cases it is a bit absurd.Originally Posted by Father Xmas
But now, with ED and all it seems, well insane to me to devote so much effort to get that extra 175% recharge simply to get 70% more.
That said, it is particularly worth it for people with game changing, long recharge powers. The best example is Eclipse, but Rain of Arrows, Shield Charge, Moment of Glory, Instant Healing, Rage, and Drain Psyche all come to mind as well. -
Quote:Thanks for beating me to it. The thread is public, if you had found the build, I wouldn't care if you linked it.Originally Posted by Stelios
Still not sure, see for yourself.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69TK0oACdXI
Makes me smile everytime.
Yes, my Dark Armor tank (that sucks) is Dark/Fire, but I really don't have a lot to say. You guys covered pretty much all the things I would.Quote:Originally Posted by Justaris
Hopefully Dechs will be by himself to make further comment, and IIRC his signature Dark tank is also Dark/Fire so he should have a lot to say.
Very much the case. Energy was a damage type that seemed prevalent enough to cause me problems, so I found it worthwhile to softcap that position too. I sometimes wonder if I went too far over the top.Quote:Originally Posted by Justaris
Also, while you have soft-capped S/L defense, you may want to consider aiming for more E/N defense as well.
Here's the build I had posted, feel free to use it as a reference. -
Quote:Who the hell are you and what have you done with Deus_Otiosus?Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'm in full agreement with Dechs on this.
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I've found that softcapping was the best thing I could have done for my Dark Armor tank. For reference of how much it's helped me, check the video in my sig. Pseudo DDR can be had by popping small purple inspirations prior to the fight. I used merits for my Kinetic Combats.
Here's how I'd do it. I managed to drop maneuvers and the expensive Gaussian's set. See what you think. I picked up crippling axe kick and you're still 2.5% over the softcap. Your endurance consumption from before didn't look too bad, but now there's two less toggles to run, and you can turn off tough for most stuffs you fight. I gave you focused accuracy instead of tactics, but I really don't think it's something you need to run anyway. I'd put something else in it's place, but I'm not sure what you want.
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