BrandX

Originally Posted by Shadow State

If the unlock isn't dependent on a Praetorian character, and they don't start in Praetoria, and their story has next to nothing to do with Praetoria, how exactly are the Praetorian EAts?

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

So, essentially, your argument boils down to "You go to hell, I want what I want." So how about no?

Making origins count is as pointless as making costume items count. One could make the argument that armour pieces should grant some measure of resistance because they're armour while Tights With Skin should add some measure of defence because they're lighter, and it would be logical. It would also be just as terrible.

Originally Posted by Oldeb

It does exactly what it did before, it just takes two seconds longer to do it. That's a game balance adjustment. It isn't a large scale change to every character.


Then what is the point? If they are so insignificant that people won't care, why waste development time and resources on them at all?


The correct one would be whichever I think gives that particular character the best bonus/costume/temp power ect. Currently I don't have to make that decision. Why should I have to?


Anything that gives me gameplay benefits at the cost of backstory for my character forces that choice. You may not personally think it's an important choice, but it's still there.


I feel no obligation to make that choice at all. The current system doesn't require it of me.

Originally Posted by Oldeb

Penalized: To impose a handicap on; place at a disadvantage.

I used the word correctly. For the umpteenth time you're forcing people to choose between concept and game play. That is a bad thing. It's very much a penalty to character creation.

You're correct in that it's not going to suddenly make any character worse than they already are. It's going to give bigger rewards to characters who picked the "correct" Origin. Yes, nobody is getting directly hurt, but what you're doing is buffing only part of the player base (at random!) and then telling those others to suck it up and just be glad you didn't nerf them.



Once again, you have a bad analogy. First, the cottage rule. Energy Transfer still does exactly what it did before they reworked it. Making Origin selection count is shattering the cottage rule and taking a whiz on its grave. You're taking something that has never had any importance and suddenly making its selection something to be considered.

Second, Energy Tansfer was reworked as part of a move to bring it into balance with the rest of the game. If you want to discuss whether or not it was successful or whether the Devs' vision of game balance is even a good one that's fine.

But what you're asking for is not a rebalancing of a specific power, a certain powerset, or even a reworking of an Archetype. It's a change to every character ever created. It throws balance out the window in order to hand out random buffs. You have to worry about whether certain ATs benefit more. Than you're going to have to see if certain powersets benefit more. After that you can check different primary/seconday combinations. You are asking for a rebalancing of every part of the game. Unlike a change to Energy Transfer there will be no character unaffected by this.

This just isn't an alteration that can be made so long after launch.

Originally Posted by Oldeb

*sigh* Let's read for comprehension together! Gather 'round class, it's story time! This might take a while, been a lot of comments, many of them repeated over and over again.

It has nothing to do with some characters getting something that others don't. My Brute doesn't have any holds while my Dominator can't buff anyone, and my Corruptor has no mez protection.

Each one of those has something that the other doesn't. But, and here's the part you have missed in every single one of those posts, I made my decision on what to play while fully informed of the result of my choices.

Originally Posted by Oldeb

If the thought that it might potentially penalize every single character created to date doesn't bother you I suppose nothing will.

Originally Posted by Microcosm

Scrapper, except in two circumstances...

1)Electric/nin stalker over electric/anything scrapper, because it is capable of higher dps in those AV fights if the player knows what he is doing.

2)A team made up of players who will stay in melee range, and no significant damage buffs. If I could count on getting the full 33% crit chance out of the Stalker, his damage pulls ahead easily. This type of team is pretty rare for these things though.

Originally Posted by Oldeb

That wasn't what I meant. Let me try again.

You wanted A. (Fire/Fire Scrapper)
A did not exist at the time.
You decided to go with B, as close as you could get to A. (Fire/Fire Tank)
You know during creation and while leveling B that B =/= A.
A is later added (via Proliferation)
B, however, is still B.
Nothing you did while creating B is invalidated or changed. B = B which you knew from the start.

Alternately:

Character C is created with origin X.
Seven years later, X is suddenly given an effect in game, one which you had no way of knowing about when the character was created.
You realize that instead of X, Character C would be better off with Origin Y or Z.
There was no possible way for you to anticipate this change and now suddenly Character C is not as good as his otherwise identical friend D because of what was thought to be a fluff choice.



Forget Defense then. That used just because it's the easiest to pick on. If none of them gave defense we'd just comment on some other bonus. There is zero chance that you can add a bonus that isn't going to upset someone. None. No matter what the bonuses are you're going to invalidate an RP concept or ruin the day of someone trying to get the most performance out of their character.

The only way to avoid that is to make the bonuses so trivial that nobody cares that they're only getting one of them. And if they're that trivial then what's the point of doing it?

Incidently I mean that question for the whole idea of Origins having meaning, not just for bonuses due to Origin. No matter what you decide, be they costumes or emotes or temps or whatever, you're going to have to make them so minor and trivial that it becomes a waste of resources to tie them to Origin. There are seven years worth of characters created who took Origin for RP reasons, because they liked shopping at a certain enhancement store, or just by the person randomly clicking one. You'd be penalizing every single one of those characters. And for what?

Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy

Anyway I am curious... So what all ATs are you running Incarnates on and is there some unwritten law that Tuesday is melee day that i am unaware of or did THAT many of you actually create nothing but Tanks and Scrappers? LOL

Originally Posted by Nericus

Works for me. The Trek franchise is out of dylthium crystals anyway and needs to be shut down, imo.

Originally Posted by Oldeb

This is a terrible analogy. You made a fire/fire tanker. Regardless of any additions to the game, your tanker is still fire/fire, with all the abilities, bonuses, and powers that comes with both your Archetype and your Powersets. At no point were any of your choices in creating this tanker invalidated with the addition of fire/fire scrappers. At no point in the creation of your tanker did you not know what you were going to get. Even if it wasn't what you wanted, you were not creating your tanker blindly.

By adding Origin bonuses you would be making blind changes to every existing character. All those characters that were created over the last seven years would have been made without knowing what they were getting into.

Originally Posted by docbuzzard

Can you point me to this analysis?



Yes, of course. Balance be damned, I want my 'I Win' button.

Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA

Top in single or AOE damage? If you're citing Billz damage tables thingy that's focused on single target damage, not AOE.

The AOE Damage potential would be the issue here.

Originally Posted by Bosstone

Assault/Defense (ie tankmage) is already in the game: VEATs.

Originally Posted by Nericus

Haven't read Trek books in awhile, also they aren't canon and the Shatner novels were relegated to the "shatnerverse" of books so that other authors didn't have to acknowledge Kirk was back.

Admiral McCoy was only seen in the first TNG episode and was never mentioned again, but given that DeForrest Kelley is gone I'd say so is McCoy.

Originally Posted by docbuzzard

As mentioned by Sam, this is going to take some work. Given that scrappers get would get a +100% damage boost instead of the +80% for tankers and brutes, and couple this with their higher damage scalar, it would put them a bit over the top. Then you have the other issue with Super Strength, the set is dependent on rage to properly work. If you check out the damage values for the attacks, they are generally a bit lower than for comparable sets, so rage is essentially factored in.

Thus it would take a whole lot of adjustment to make SS compatible with scrappers.

This is another one which isn't terribly likely to happen. If you take a scrapper and give him every SR power slotted up, they get to around 30% defense to all positions coupled with 95% defense debuff resistance.

Now keep in mind that a scrapper only gets 75% of the defensive values of a tanker. Thus if we adjust SR for a tanker they will be running around with 40% position defense to all without any pool powers. Add in combat jumping with one defense SO and you are sitting at 43% defense to all. That's near softcap with no effort and you're almost totally resistant to defense debuff. That's pretty damned durable. I can't see that happening.

Originally Posted by Nericus

Uhura had her memory and personality erased by Nomad and had to be reeducated and retaught everything, then still had to reassociate herself with herself as it were since technically she may not be quite the same person.

Scotty was killed and revived by Nomad. Granted he was in transporter stasis for 80 years so presumably he outlived everyone but Spock, but as I recall the final fates of Uhura, Chekov and Sulu have not been revealed in canon.

Originally Posted by Lothic

Is the concept I'm trying to explain really that hard to understand? We're talking about a matter of CHOICE here.

Sure if the Devs decided to apply bonuses based on Origins then my current characters would get whatever bonuses were related to their Origins by default, whether they were of any use to them or not. But unless the Devs also provided a means to allow our current characters a way to respec their Origins so that we can have the CHOICE about which Origin bonuses we'd want it would be grossly unfair to any existing character. Without that our old characters would be (through no fault of their own) out of luck if they were stuck with Origins that were for whatever reason no longer appropriate.

I think you're missing the point on how much things would change if Origins suddenly had a significant game impact like this. That's precisely why the Devs wisely DID NOT attach in-game bonuses to them. Without Origin bonuses we don't have the added headaches you seem to have no problem wanting to introduce into this game.

I'm aware you believe that the bonuses you're talking about are small enough that people would still choose Origins based on RP reasons despite these bonuses. But if that's the case then why should the Devs add bonuses like this at all? What value added would we get from it if you're basically saying they wouldn't impact on our character decisions? You can't have it both ways here. You seem to be unaware that far more people play games like this with the mindset of doing anything they can to min/max their characters' stats. Origins which grant unique bonuses are going to be picked based on which bonus works the best for their characters, not which bonuses "fit" their characters' RP concept.

As I said before if the game ALWAYS had Origin bonuses like this then it would be a fact of the game we would've all accepted as "normal" by now. But introducing something like this seven years after launch would actually be far more problematic than it would ever be fun or useful.

Origins are a non game affecting way to detail our character for RP purposes, period. Just like costume items provide no in-game bonuses neither should Origins. These things are "bonus-less" so that we are free to choose any of them we want without having to worry about (or being locked into) picking the best combinations to min/max our stats.

Originally Posted by Signpost

Reichsman fights are the most boring evar!

Originally Posted by plainguy

Eldorado was on the mark.

I actually have your build you posted a while back for me. I am still trying to get my head around something else beyond Defense Cap. It really is a hard thing for me to get away from.

I do happen to have 4 sets of kinetic combats out of pure luck. I think 1 might be the proc though. But regardless I the cheapskate in me wanted to possibly sell them for the money and weasel a cheaper way around this build.

Without looking at your data file I am pretty sure my 2nd build is more in line of what you posted.

Here is what threw me off a bit I guess. Yesterday I did Tip missions with some level 50s I was 45 slotted with SOs. I decided to pull away from the group and solo a group of mobs just ahead of us to see what I can do. I was impressed to see that I didn't die or get that beat up. It took me a bit to see rise to the challenge kick in. I actually was about to bail out of the fight when I think rise to the challenge kicked in and I started regening HP at a faster rate. It took some getting used to.

So after seeing that I though, I guess incorrectly that my newer IO build ( the first build I posted ) would be good enough to handle and more what my SO build was doing now.

I will post a 2nd build once I am home to see how off base or on the mark I was before getting derailed again..