New AT idea brainstorming: What else is there?
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2011-02-08 21:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
It's been mentioned before and I like the idea, a Melee/Buff or DeBuff type or Buff or DeBuff/Melee. Ever fight the Tsoo Martial Arts/Kinetics guys, something along that order. Melee centric type are always popular and I can see this one thriving.
Not completely a new AT, but assault/defense. We already have minor hybrids in claws and spines, both with a ranged ST and ranged cone (and with epic sets, adding another ranged blast, and 1-2 ranged AoEs).
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Originally Posted by Sir_Troller
It's been mentioned before and I like the idea, a Melee/Buff or DeBuff type or Buff or DeBuff/Melee. Ever fight the Tsoo Martial Arts/Kinetics guys, something along that order. Melee centric type are always popular and I can see this one thriving.
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I was thinking maybe Medium HP and Medium Damage, Melee/Debuff. This would make for a sort of Passive Aggressive Defense playstyle rather than active defense for Doms and Blasters and passive for the melee AT's An Inherent idea would be like a reverse Fury, the more damage you take, the more effective your buff/debuffs/heals get.
Also the idea popped in my Head the other day for a sniper AT, Very Low HP, Very High Damage. This would be something along the lines of Blast/Defense sets. The blasts having insane range and the armors only being sets with a large amount of auto powers (Regen, Invuln, and SR spring to mind).
The idea would be to shoot them down before they see you coming and if they do catch up to you you'll have a few seconds to panic and run away or lay them flat before you faceplant.
An inherent could be an aggro mod that prevents enemies from noticing missed attacks and ignoring attacks under a certain damage amount (this would scale by level)
50Soulsunder: DM/Regen Scrapper
50Limitshift: EM/WP Brute
Victoria Nox: Dark/Dark Dominator
And about 5 others that change constantly...
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Stalkers can get snipes from epic pools. Also, a single attack one trick pony would suck, and ignoring attacks under an amount would either be overpowered or meaningless. (if your low damage ranged attacks are ignored, what's to stop you from making a chain of low damage attacks? If said attacks still draw aggro even if ignored (e.g. stalker aggro even though he's still technically stealthed, like after using lightning rod), it's useless, since the aggro would mean a ranged attack to your face, and hence being properly aggroed then.) I'd suggest just improving stalker epic pool snipes to a point which they're actually useful (lower cast and interrupt time, crittable from hide).
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Originally Posted by Shatterghost
This
I was thinking maybe Medium HP and Medium Damage, Melee/Debuff. This would make for a sort of Passive Aggressive Defense playstyle rather than active defense for Doms and Blasters and passive for the melee AT's An Inherent idea would be like a reverse Fury, the more damage you take, the more effective your buff/debuffs/heals get. Also the idea popped in my Head the other day for a sniper AT, Very Low HP, Very High Damage. This would be something along the lines of Blast/Defense sets. The blasts having insane range and the armors only being sets with a large amount of auto powers (Regen, Invuln, and SR spring to mind). The idea would be to shoot them down before they see you coming and if they do catch up to you you'll have a few seconds to panic and run away or lay them flat before you faceplant. An inherent could be an aggro mod that prevents enemies from noticing missed attacks and ignoring attacks under a certain damage amount (this would scale by level) |
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Good point about the inherent, and ya Stalkers get epic snipes but they're still melee ATs. I'm thinking along the lines of energy blast but all the powers in the set being long range like the snipe. I don't know, it was just a brainfart I had the other day, never really fleshed it out.|
Originally Posted by Signpost
Stalkers can get snipes from epic pools. Also, a single attack one trick pony would suck, and ignoring attacks under an amount would either be overpowered or meaningless. (if your low damage ranged attacks are ignored, what's to stop you from making a chain of low damage attacks? If said attacks still draw aggro even if ignored (e.g. stalker aggro even though he's still technically stealthed, like after using lightning rod), it's useless, since the aggro would mean a ranged attack to your face, and hence being properly aggroed then.) I'd suggest just improving stalker epic pool snipes to a point which they're actually useful (lower cast and interrupt time, crittable from hide).
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As I said good point about the inherent, but maybe have the low damage attacks simply delay aggro until said enemy is at 1/2 HP where as higher damage attacks immediately aggro. the inherent would be useless on a team but would help immensely with soloing.
50Soulsunder: DM/Regen Scrapper
50Limitshift: EM/WP Brute
Victoria Nox: Dark/Dark Dominator
And about 5 others that change constantly...
Melee/Support (buff/debuff)
Figure, due to being in melee range where attacks generally hit harder, give them medium HPs (Say Blaster/Stalker level) with Melee Damage mod of 1.0ish and Buff/Debuff mods of about 0.8. Roughly Corruptor level support with higher damage (due to being melee limited).
Inherent power could be called Stoicism and grant 4mag protection from all mez types (Not enough to take much abuse, but enough so that they're not getting constantly detoggled.)
Control/Defense (Armor)
Hybridized Control sets with 3 powers swapped with theme appropriate melee attacks. Have them start with basic hitpoints (Defender/Controller/Corruptor/Etc) with Control, Damage and Defense/Resist mods of 0.75.
Give them a set of Swap Ammo type toggle Inherent powers that boost either Max Hitpoints, or the Enhancement Value to Control, Damage, Defense/Resist. This lets them switch to whichever effect best fits their situation. (Enhancement Value toggles work just like Power Boost, they don't grant you resist/defense/damage/control if you don't have any already they just boost the effect of your resist/defense/damage/control powers. These buffs would entirely ignore ED but would not allow you to surpass the stat caps. If you had an armor that gave you 10% defense, slotted it with 56% defense from Enhancements and got an additional 50%bonus from the inherent, your toggle would buff your defense by 10*(1.0+0.56+0.5)=20.6%.)
Max HP inherent gives Tanker HP with Scrapper level defense, moderate control and poor damage. Can fill tanker role, using control to suppliment their agro management.
Defense/Resist inherent improves personal mitigation to tanker level, but leaves their hitpoints and damage low, with moderate control capability. This is another way they can fill the tank role, using their control ability to supplement their shields and prevent damage.
Control inherent gives Controller level control with Scrapper level defense, low hitpoints and poor damage. Can fill the Control role on a team with greater personal survivability but lower team contribution than Controllers and less damage than Doms bring.
Damage inherent brings their (few) attacks up to blaster level damage, with low hitpoints and scrapper level defense and moderate control ability. NOTE: They would never have actual blaster level damage ability because they have very limited attacks. This would be more the Solo role. Increased personal kill speed but doesn't really offer anything to a team because they're still fairly low in overall damage output.
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Defense/Defense, so I can finally realize my dream of having an Invulnerability/Dark Amour character.
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Originally Posted by Sir_Troller
It's been mentioned before and I like the idea, a Melee/Buff or DeBuff type or Buff or DeBuff/Melee. Ever fight the Tsoo Martial Arts/Kinetics guys, something along that order. Melee centric type are always popular and I can see this one thriving.
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Basically this. The "Paladin" class so to speak. Sort of covered by epic ATs, but I don't consider the epic ATs to be very thematically flexible. I envision such an AT with a mixed armor/buff/debuff set paired with an Assault set or Melee set.
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Say, tank level offense, scrapper level defense, controller level buffs and debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I envision such an AT with a mixed armor/buff/debuff set paired with an Assault set or Melee set.
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Combine Kinetics with Energy Aura
Kinetic Shield
Transfusion
Siphon Speed Aura
Entropy Shield
Power Shield
Grant Increased Density (works like grant cover)
Energy Drain
Dampening Field
Fulcrum Shift
I only really care about two potential frameworks:
Assault/Defence and Melee/Summon.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Really what Sam said.
A Ranged/Armour or Assault/Armour would allow so many more concepts to be realised.
I'm surprised it's taken this long...
Aside from that I-
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Though as I mentioned, both spines and claws are already semi ranged (a ranged attack, and a ranged cone), and with epic can do just about as much ranged damage (if not more thanks to the "ranged" attacks using melee modifiers on scrappers) as any assault set. Main problem is that both spines and claws are heavily lethal based, meaning issues with lethal resistance/def. Also, you cannot use Shield Def with either.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Really what Sam said.
A Ranged/Armour or Assault/Armour would allow so many more concepts to be realised. I'm surprised it's taken this long... |
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Generalist. An AT able to take any of the powersets in the game. To balance it there would be two flavors -- Ranged Generalist, and Melee Generalist. |
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
So, tl;dr If you could come up with a new AT idea, what would it be? Hard mode: existing powersets only, None EAT, only Final Destination.
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You know how controller secondary powersets are the same as defender primaries, but work at about 75% the strength? That's how you balance an all-powerset AT. The Ranged Generalist gets 90% strength for ranged attack powersets (the blaster and corruptor primaries and the defender and dominator secondaries), but only 25% strength for melee powersets (tank primaries, all melee powersets, etc.) The Melee Generalist would be the reverse -- 90% strength for melee attacks and defenses, but 25% strength for ranged attacks. Both generalists would get the intermediate powersets like the controller primaries, the defender primaries, and the mastermind primaries at only 50% strength.
This AT would be weaker than others, especially if you build it wrong. But the trade-off for that is incredible flexibility. You can make the all-attack glass cannon, or the all-debuff team-only pacifist, or the ranged-attack tankmage. But none of those combinations would be strong enough to threaten any of the standard ATs. That tankmage has 90% of the offense of a blaster and 25% of the defense of a tank (or vice versa!). That's good enough to play the game but it's not going to make anyone feel insecure.
Just a thought. I think it would work. But it would be the Final Powerset Proliferation, and I don't know where you could go from there.
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Ranged Defense so I can have my Dual Pistol/pick a defense set, so I can make the character I envisioned since the day I picked up the CoH box!
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It's not tank level offense when your offense consists of temp powers, power pool attacks, and brawl.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Say, tank level offense, scrapper level defense, controller level buffs and debuffs.
Combine Kinetics with Energy Aura Kinetic Shield Transfusion Siphon Speed Aura Entropy Shield Power Shield Grant Increased Density (works like grant cover) Energy Drain Dampening Field Fulcrum Shift |
Assault/Defense (ie tankmage) is already in the game: VEATs.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Which nicely negates the 'tankmage' image.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Assault/Defense (ie tankmage) is already in the game: VEATs.
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However, it doesn't negate the fact that;
1) SoAs, for some daft reason, get next to no gun customisation
2) Are very much locked into an 'assault rifle and armour flavour'. Still no options for, say, Dual Pistols/Super Reflexes.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Main problems is spines and claws are incredibly concept locked.|
Originally Posted by Signpost
Though as I mentioned, both spines and claws are already semi ranged (a ranged attack, and a ranged cone), and with epic can do just about as much ranged damage (if not more thanks to the "ranged" attacks using melee modifiers on scrappers) as any assault set. Main problem is that both spines and claws are heavily lethal based, meaning issues with lethal resistance/def. Also, you cannot use Shield Def with either.
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I'm talking about Energy Blasst(or Assault)/Invul or Dual Pistols/Super Reflexes.
Something like that would unlock so many more concept ideas for people, myself included.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I've always liked the idea of a support/melee character. The idea I thought of was this: take support sets, remove one or two powers to replace with the most basic self defense. Then make most all abilities be PbAoE or close range.
For instance, radiation emission as 'radiation aura:'
1. Energized Resolve:
auto +4 mez protection, +mez resistance, +5% resistance to all
2. Radiant aura: heal (as seen in radiation emission)
3. Infective Aura: radiation infection, anchored on self)
4. Nuclear Reinforcement:
toggle, +20% resistance to energy, +15% resistance to all else but psychic
5. Accelerate metabolism
6. Enervation Aura: enervating field, anchored on self.
7. Lingering Radiation: same as in radiant emission, but is a PbAoE not targeted AoE.
8. Choking Cloud. Same.
9. Nuclear fallout: Auto/PbAoE blast power automatically triggers fallout on your location when you are defeated. Larger radius.
Other powers that might need tweaking: single target shields become weaker, shorter-lived PbAoE cast buffs for all allies in range. These do not apply to the caster. Ranged single target debuffs become melee single target debuffs. Cones become PbAoE. Knockback powers become knockdown/knock up. For instance, hurricane could becomes "typhoon", a PbAoE KU/debuff. Basically, you get a character with lowered/more limited support but added survivability. This is still a very powerful setup, so I'd suggest giving even lower stats, with an inherent that can be used to raise them.
Redside AT: Predator
Melee/debuff aura (.75% melee mod/.65 debuff mod/.75% armor mod)
HP: blaster values
Inherent: bloodlust (+ damage/endurance for foes defeated)
Suggested primaries: (melee)
axe, mace, broadsword, katana, energy, ice, superstrength, kinetic combat, dual blades, dark, martial arts, electric, fire, spines
Suggested secondaries: (debuff/armor) kinetic aura, radiation aura, dark aura, sonic aura, Frigid Aura, Fiery Aura, poisonous presence, storm aura
Blueside AT: Guardian
Buff/debuff aura (.75% buff/debuff mod/ .75% melee mod/.75% armor mod)
Hp: scrapper values
Inherent: steadfast (+res for enemies in melee range)
Suggested primaries: (debuff/armor) kinetic aura, radiation aura, dark aura, sonic aura, Frigid Aura, Fiery Aura, Force shields, storm aura
Suggested secondaries: (melee)
axe, mace, broadsword, katana, energy, ice, superstrength, kinetic combat, dual blades, dark, martial arts, electric, fire, spines
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You say tankmage, yet, I have yet to see VEATS be tankmages.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Assault/Defense (ie tankmage) is already in the game: VEATs.
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But sure. Give Soldier's the ability to become Dual Pistols/Soldier Secondary, and I'll roll up a new Soldier! I won't even rename/respec my current lvl 50 Soldier, I'll start a new one and start at level 1!
Also give it the ability to start in Praetoria and Paragon.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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True enough, which is why they're not completely and horribly unbalancing. They have to work hard to even approach scrapper-level defenses, but they do still have far more defense than the typical ranged AT and can survive a ridiculous amount.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
You say tankmage, yet, I have yet to see VEATS be tankmages.
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VEATs do show it can be done without being too overpowered, and I wouldn't mind seeing some exploration that way myself, but real tankmages can be problematic for balance.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I wanna make a Paladin.
Melee, some armor, and buffs/heals.If I could, I'd make a Scrapper with Broadsword as my Primary, Shield Defense as my Secondary, and Empathy for my APP. Yes, Empathy APP! Not that rubbish Medicine power pool.
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And the Devs know well enough to avoid actual Tankmages (even if they forget when making AVs at times ¬¬ )|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
True enough, which is why they're not completely and horribly unbalancing. They have to work hard to even approach scrapper-level defenses, but they do still have far more defense than the typical ranged AT and can survive a ridiculous amount.
VEATs do show it can be done without being too overpowered, and I wouldn't mind seeing some exploration that way myself, but real tankmages can be problematic for balance. |
Niether VEATs nor HEATs are anything approaching the horrible 'tankmage' level, especially not Kheldians with thier lack of mez shields outside of the clunky Dwarf form (I hate the transformation time it takes and I dont care who knows it)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm.. pretty sure any of the various AT and powerset combos that solo AVs count as tankmages. I say this as a former Asheron's Call player, where the mages... were tankier than the melees with shields and out-damaged both them and the archers. Trust me, I know 'em when I see 'em, and I'm seeing 'em.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And the Devs know well enough to avoid actual Tankmages (even if they forget when making AVs at times ¬¬ )
Niether VEATs nor HEATs are anything approaching the horrible 'tankmage' level, especially not Kheldians with thier lack of mez shields outside of the clunky Dwarf form (I hate the transformation time it takes and I dont care who knows it) |
Okay, so a thread on the suggestions forum brought this thought to mind: Outside of theme specific EATS, what else is there that could be constructed into a unique AT that can actually make use of existing powersets?
I mean in terms of the genre of City of, things seem pretty well covered, and in my mind this is similar to the question of 'what new travel powers can there be that wouldn't just be a customization of an existing one or can't be done?'
So, tl;dr If you could come up with a new AT idea, what would it be? Hard mode: existing powersets only, None EAT, only Final Destination.
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