BlackSly

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including but not limited to the use of ‘bots’ and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input.

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Pretty much by definition, a "macro" requires human input, at the least to start it.

I guess it could be a question of "how complicated does a macro have to be to turn from an input aid into an automatic player", but in all cases where you execute events once, I believe it is generally considered as an input aid.

For example: a SS/Fire Brute creates a macro where he spams Footstomp, "target closest", his patron AoE Immob, and Burn, in that order, along with a few more repetitions of Footstomp. He sets up the macro so that it runs repeatedly, and parks the character in an outdoor spawn area where patrols may go by. He's in a Task Force so he doesn't get disconnected. That's "botting".

If, OTOH, he sets up the macro to run once on a keypress, and just uses it so he doesn't have to hit 4 buttons, that's an input aid since every time it's fired it's under human direction.

Just as an update, with the new Beginner's Luck mechanism that increases low-level accuracy, I would not recommend now that you slot 2 Acc / 2 End Red.

I would go with 1 Acc only, and use the saved slot either for defenses, or for Dam for faster attacks and Rech for slower attacks.

Beautiful upgrade. Best feature of I12, in fact best feature of the last 3 issues, to me. I'll definitely be using and buying slots, and then paying for some transfers.

Can't complain about the pricing, the free slots, and in the end NCSoft will still be getting lots more money from me.

Well done both from a gaming and a business perspective.

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Of course, for many AVs, beating their regen isn't enough. Envoy will heal, Nosferatu lifetaps, Nemesis will phase out which gives him time to regen, etc.

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Sky, are you factoring in AV defenses/resistances or are they diverse enough across the set of AVs that generalities like 120 DPS are broadly applicable? For example, I just smoked the Hero version of Indigo (Take that for sending me all over the damn city, biotch!). She did not even seem to have resistances, but Marauder is a S/L nightmare, even without his Unstoppable.

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Absolutely not. I'm considering DPS upon the target, which could be a 150 base DPS damage output dropped to 120 finald DPS by resistance. Certainly the AV may make a difference with high defense, or high resists, in addition to heals and phase shifts.

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Scrappers cannot do it due to their DPS. The best Scrapper builds top off at around 160 DPS also due to animation limitations. This also factors in criticals. This is another reason why people say sets like SS/SM/EM are overpowered because it allows tankers to meet the standards of Scrappers.

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I cannot find the many threads, but I believe Catwhoorg would beg to differ. He has soloed most of the game's AVs and the weakened Hami from the LGTF.

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Like I said, I know completely min/max and IO'd out a lot of the Scrapper builds were:

Claws: 120 DPS
Broadsword and Katana: around 110 DPS
Spines: 100 DPS
MA: 130 DPS I think
Dual Blades: Unknown (Done before it)

Dark Melee (Which is the highest) was around 160 I believe. Now if he's doing it then probably 160 DPS is enough to overcome their regeneration. However, I know in a thread comparing to max Tanker DPS versus Scrapper Tankers could get equal or better to the best IO'd out Scrapper build for DPS.

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Last I heard, standard AV regen at level 50 was a little over 100 HPS, so doing 160 (*.95) should be enough if you keep up a perfect chain and are willing to wait a while.

Burn does about 50 DPS, I think, so it means that you have to average 50 DPS to beat the AV's regen... that does include the time to drop Burn, which takes about 20-30% of your time. So 70% of the Tank's offense has to beat 50 DPS, at a minimum. Less, if you're using a /SS Tank whose Rage will buff Burn. The Patron immobs aren't bad damage, actually, Ring of Fire has a 1 sec activation and does 50 damage UNSLOTTED, so if you slot it for Damage, it will help you take the AV down. It's duration is 18 sec or so with 10 recharge, so it should be easy to keep the 2 applications that you need upon an even level AV up at all time, even if you have to spend a slot on Immob/Recharge or something like that.

Of course, for many AVs, beating their regen isn't enough. Envoy will heal, Nosferatu lifetaps, Nemesis will phase out which gives him time to regen, etc.

Still, doing 120+ sustained DPS, including misses and time to use inspirations, defensive powers/heals, etc, is not as exclusive as it seems at first. Since a Shivan alone provides in the neighborhood of 100 DPS, anyone can put out the damage fast enough with a Shivan to defeat almost any AV. The catch is surviving, and without inspirations, not too many can tank an AV for several minutes (and if you don't tank, it steps on your Shivan in about 20 seconds).

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Caveat: There may be particular Defender or Tanker builds that could achieve a particular solo AV/H kill, but that is the exception, not the norm.

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Just as a note, I'm sure that there ARE Defender and Tanker builds that CAN solo many AVs without the use of inspirations. And a lot more with the reasonably fair caveat that the Defender may use Break Frees (only) since unlike MMs, Scrappers, and Tankers, they don't have both offense and status protection available.

Any Fire/x Tank who takes either the Ice or the Fire epic pools can Immob an AV in their Burn patch, for starters. With IO set bonuses you can get a Burn patch down permanently, and you get Healing Flames up every 15 seconds or so for a huge heal. Perma-Burn will allow the Tank to trivially beat the AV's regen rate (easier if it's a Fire/SS tank so that Burn gets the Rage bonus). Granted, all that's assuming some nice IO bonuses, but that's a reasonable assumption when we're talking high-difficulty tasks.

Oh, and a well-IO'd Ice Tank or SR Scrapper can have the AV permanently floored at their To-Hit floor.

MMs are not alone. They're probably among the easier AV soloers, but they're not alone.

Comments:

Chillblain: this is a 1 sec activation or so, ranged damage is about equal to Ice Blast... with this and 3 other Blast attacks plus your ranged Hold, you will have 5 ranged attacks, all of which give -Slow/-Recharge. I would certainly take it once you have End issues under control, as it allows you to kite mobs you don't want to face in melee, and kiting with a character who does strong -Slow is also good in PvP.

Shiver: this is good for PvP... again, stacking Slows is a killer.

GIS: I agree to skip this... you have lots of attacks. You have lots of fast attacks. With all the attacks that you have, how can you take and slot this power also? I mean, it's not a bad power per se, but what are you going to drop? Ranged blasts? I wouldn't drop ranged blasts for a Dominator, I dislike dropping AoEs for a ST attack, so in the end, it's a fine attack that will pull slots from other fine attacks.

Frost Breath & Shiver: Very good combination. I do like the idea of skipping or taking both, rather than taking only one. And I also like the Chilling Embrace/Ice Sword Circle combination... I would go with one of the two combos, depending on whether you prefer cones to PBAoEs or not. If you go all-ranged (blasts and Chillblain), I would suggest FB&Shiver.

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EDIT: There was also a slight change to Cloaking Device which should help with the SG breaking Stealth a bit. Experiment with it some and let me know what you think.

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Did this change set it up like Superior Invisibility so that it has partial Stealth when supressed?

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To reiterate, since the thread was snipped:

On a full team of 8, I was getting only 3 points to my Dom bar per attack. I should have been getting about 6.5 points.

Can anyone confirm that the team size buff to Domination is working for them?

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I've tracked down the issue and am working on a fix.

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Thank you, and thanks to Lady Sadako for bringing this up to Dev attention with no delay.

Now, if they let me reroll as EM.... *drools*

AR's already long ranges, improved with Boost Range = chain-sniping

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Unfortunately, I have no solutions yet other than "reverse the changes" that don't either render Tankers even less useful in AV fights, or require a complete overhaul of the AT or AVs themselves. I hope someone else can come up with something acceptable to the decision maker(s), I'll continue trying myself.

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How about if Gauntlet has, say, a 10-20% chance to Critical? And a Critical will affect an AV/GM? Chance probably would depend on the activation time of the power, so that if you take the risk of firing a 3-second Total Focus, you have a better chance of using Gauntlet with it upon an AV.

That way, with fast attacking, you have a reasonable chance to use Gauntlet to pull about 20-50% of an AV's aggro to you using Gauntlet, while still letting Taunt serve a purpose (to increase the aggro-lock %), and while still letting the AV have a chance to attack other people during a fight. Like Defenders and Controllers, you'll mitigate team damage but not completely prevent it.

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-regen is not needed to take down an AV. Taunt is not needed. Tanks in general aren't needed. Want an easy time as a tanker on an AV team? Take taunt.


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What team would take a tauntless tank to an AV fight now?

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Eh, some Tanks outdamage some Scrappers in single-target.
Fire puts out great sustained DPS due to having the best DPE efficiency.
EM is also okay... better in burst damage than sustained, but still good DPS.
Super Strength is also very good, especially on larger teams where you have a good chance of getting multiple +Recharge boosts so you can double-stack Rage for a long time.

Tank sustained DPS, on a team where they get +Recovery boosts so that they can afford to use their heavy hitters whenever they recharge, is not as bad as people make it out to be, by saying "Tanks have no use vs AVs except to Taunt". Frankly... probably any Tanker powerset built for it can outdamage my AR Blaster vs a single target. Well, except for Ice Melee.

Tanks have a purpose vs AVs... they can Taunt to hold aggro, they can do damage, and they can also hold aggro when the team is getting hit hard if the rest of the team cooperates by holding back fire until the situation is stabilized. It's true that our main purpose of aggro control is not manageable using what was once a very good concept of gaining aggro by attacking. But look at Controllers... their main purpose of controlling is 3/4 useless, yet they're still fine on AV fights by using other powers. Tanks are not defined solely by aggro management, even if it is their main or one of their main purposes.

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These threads happen because the AT is fundamentally broken at its core, we see several threads start every single day that demonstrate this, and not just here on the Tanker forum either.

However the devs think this AT is all hunky dory.

Like I said, they're busy messing up other ATs right now, so I expect Tankers will be fixed this side of never.

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I don't think that the devs believe that Tanks are hunky dory.

I do think that they've said that they're not sure what the problem is, but that there is a problem with the concept.

Sounds to me as if they're not happy somewhere, but they can't figure out either what the problem is, or what the solution is.

Heck, even the players who've played Tankers for 2+ years, and posted here all this time, can't agree on what "the problem" is.

Are we Taunt-bots (active aggro controllers)?
Are we Gauntlet-machines (passive aggro controllers)?
Are we damage sponges (absorb alpha)?
Are we melee controllers (control mobs and manage aggro through controls)?
Are we Scrankers?
Are we a mixture?
Which of those should be emphasized? Which should be de-emphasized? Should any be completely taken out? Should something be added?

I don't think that Brutes were that much better designed than Tankers. What I think is the case, is that the concept of Brutes is much more obvious, thus players are less confused about how they work. With Tankers, it's not just Devs that are confused. We all are.

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That would be retarded. Taunt is already a hammy way of getting Tanks to take more aggro than they're "worth". A scaling version would just be ridiculous.

Why would they get more aggro? Are they more angry and using worse insults? Are they putting their brain to the test and discovering psychic abilities heretofore unknown?

Dynamite. The solution is dynamite.

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Every single attack that Tanks do, should cause multiple effects. Many effects. Like, more than a few. Lots, even.

It's always appeared to me that multiple effects, debuffs, etc, draw more aggro than pure damage.

Have all Tank attacks debuff AND control the target. Even if it's only a 1 second -Recharge due to being off balance. Give Tanks more PBAoE attacks, each of which with a 1-second attached debuff plus their normal effects like DoT, chance to knockdown, etc. Maybe have a AoE Fear Aura when you see the Tank smash your boss. Have the Fear aura be dependent on the target hit... you're more afraid when he hits your boss than when he hits a mere minion.

All of these multiple effects will build aggro upon Tanks, using an APPROPRIATE mechanism: I hamper your efforts to fight, therefore you wish to defeat me first. Not the kludge that Taunt effects are.

Using these mechanisms, Tanks will have the ability to maintain aggro relatively well, without overpowering them by giving them high damage for aggro management, or constant controls for the same reason. Turn Tanks into a PBAoE combat machine that throws out everything but not to overpowering levels in anything, and they'll be useful exactly for holding aggro without being High Damage.

Consider, for example, a combination of Mud Pots, Chilling Embrace, a PBAoE Roar that acts like Invoke Panic (for three seconds... so it's more of a aggro-management power), etc... and the Tank can hold aggro in melee range. Without having overpowered damage or control.

Well-said. Context defines most of the meaning of every non-trivial word used in any discussion.

Just unfortunate that those who need to read this, won't.

Just a simple note: Most Drop Teams have someone with Group Flight, and someone else (or the same) with Recall Friend. Be sure that, when teleporting Illusionists to the team (those that arrive after it's deployed), if they do not have Hover/Fly, that you teleport them ABOVE the team. Group Flight takes a second or second and a half to kick in, and I've seen people fall out of its area before the power kicks in for them.

Needless to say, that's not a happy trip down for them

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I bet you if the Devs take away Gauntlet but still leave the Gauntlet icon on...no one would be able to tell that it's gone.

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Wow. That's just woefully untrue. Tanks got a massive increase when they got punchvoke.

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In my opinion, Gauntlet suffers from 'Green Number Syndrome'. People can't visibly measure it's effect, so of course that means it is not useful - the same way so many measure the contribution of a "Healer" vs that of the other Support AT's.

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Exactly.
A Blaster hits a mob next to me for 300 damage. I see that, and immediately hit the mob with Stone Fists, for 60 damage. Now, that mob is aggroed on ME, not on the Blaster.

That's not a "green number" effect, and it's subtle, and if you're not looking for it, you won't notice it. But the Blaster will notice, if you didn't have Gauntlet, and instead had to rely on waiting the next 5 seconds for Taunt to recharge.

Gauntlet isn't a long-lasting Taunt, but if you're attacking constantly (for example, I spam Tremor, Fault, and I have Blazing Aura up), then mobs next to you should be held very strongly. That frees up Taunt or Provoke to grab mobs at a distance, and I find that duality of abilities to be very helpful. I don't want to drag the six mobs next to me over to the squishies in order to pull aggro off them... yet if all I had was Taunt, then if I Taunted the mobs by the squishies... those six next to me would lose aggro and go kill the Rad defender whose debuffs are keeping me alive. Because without Gauntlet, how do I keep those mobs next to me, on me, unless I use Taunt. And then I can't use Taunt to pull that group over by the squishies back to me where it belongs. Etc.

Gauntlet is subtle, but it's certainly strong.

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And try to use Guantlet on an AV now and see how long they attack you before your squishy defender gets 1 shotted.

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My squishy defender usually gets one shotted by the AV's AoE, not because I lost agro, and the AV turned and attacked said squishy defender. Damn them for getting in close to give me RA!

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I have tanked a +4 AV using just Gauntlet.
I had Boxing and Stone Fists, and due to Andrenaline Boost and other buffs, was able to cycle those back to back, thus constantly attacking.

The AV never looked away from me. Even if the Gauntlet effect is not strong on a +4 mob, it's strong enough to last to the next 1-2 attacks, and that's all that you need, if you keep attacking constantly, to keep the AV focused on you.

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The reason that I think Gauntlet is useless is because it doesn't seem to help Tankers get more agro or anything...Maybe it does just a little but most Tanks already have Taunt to cover that.

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The whole point of Gauntlet was that with it, Tanks don't HAVE to have Taunt in order to maintain aggro.

If you take, slot, and spam Taunt, then you don't have as much use for Gauntlet. I still think that it has a use: Aggro cap is 16, while Taunt cap is 5 per use... when I charge in with Provoke (or Taunt), hit Tremor and Fault, I should have every mob in the spawn aggroed on me, and maintaining their aggro on me until the Gauntlet fades. Meanwhile, if I had only Taunt, what would happen is that I'd have 5 aggroed on me and stuck there, and the rest of the spawn would go to whoever did the most damage... and that would be to the Blasters behind me, not to me. So in terms of quickly grabbing an entire spawn, Gauntlet is definitely necessary. A Tank's AEs don't do so much damage that he can maintain aggro on an entire spawn with just Taunt, not unless you slot it up heavily, and even then it would require multiple uses of Taunt to get the entire spawn.

Most teams can't or won't wait for you to Taunt 3 times. Gauntlet allows you to hold aggro without having to wait for any power to recharge. That is extremely beneficial to a tank whose goal is to be the anvil upon which the enemies are smashed (see sig). Without Gauntlet, with a 5-mob limit on Taunt, we'd have serious aggro-management problems. Serious as in "we'll aggro a random 5 mobs from the spawn, the rest are your problem".

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But I don't get what benefit a "Jekyll and Hyde" AT delivers to a team?

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I think that, for this purpose, a Dominator is meant to use Domination as a bail-out measure, and live with 80% control duration as payment for the ability to have that bail-out measure. Rather than using it constantly through the mission.

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Out of curiosity, does this tweak include the ability to fire off domination when mezzed?

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Not initially, but the patch following should have it. I forget to stick that in on the original change, and QA helpfully pointed it out, but not in time to reach the version going out.

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Awesome. In my mind, it won't handle the biggest defensive problem of Dominators... with no debuffs, self-heals, or other means of mitigating DAMAGE, they're far more likely to get killed by being damaged than by being mezzed. But it's still a huge step, and a big difference between them and the other squishies, that may bridge the performance gap to where they're not just competitive, but relatively even, with others.

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oh wahhh, its not like its a huge bug even if it is a bug. Again the only way I was able to make it happen was with 2 rad corrupters, hasten, and the temp power for the crey map "objects". I have a feeling you need a whole arnsenal of /rad or /kin to replicate that temporary power.

It was still pretty freaking cool, just wanted to relate a story is all.


Oh and to all those complaining about the game being buggy and lack of dev response that is trolling. This thread was strictly for the discussion of achieving overlapping domniation.

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I'm pretty sure that if it requires at least two people of a specific secondary to achieve that level of power, it's not overpowered. I think that classifies as "working as intended."

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I agree. I do not recall the Devs considering powers as being overpowered when it required multiple AT/powerset combinations to achieve a particular result.

It's only when a power is in the "overpowered" category by itself, or with a complementing set that's available to the same character, that they do something. Like, perma-Unstoppable was overpowered, but I doubt that they'd have a problem with someone teaming with 4 Kinetics to get perma-Unstoppable only on that team. Heck, you could team with 4 Sonics, and get much better effects just from their shields and Clarity stacked.

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That was pretty much my reaction, too.

All the physics are client side only, and no information about them is passed from client to server -- so, it's strictly a visual on your machine. That means, there is no way for people to play volleyball, or kickball. We could put one in that only you, the player, would see, but I imagine that isn't what everyone would like.

Sorry, folks.

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I don't see why you can't make it into a Level 1 monster with immunity to all damage and all debuffs and all status effects, but like Gears, vulnerable to Knockback. No attacks and no move, so we could attack it to move it around.

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Be patient. Be patient. Be patient. Let the aggro managers do their thing before you start.
There exists no situation where it is a good idea to open with an AOE on a TEAM spawn.

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That alone makes this guide worth reading.

AE Blasting for the team is all about timing and awareness of aggro.

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Tanks haven't been ignored, they have had the entire concept and gameplay switch from under them. They took MANY of the Tank suggestions and put them in Brutes. This makes tanks angry.

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You know? This thread was doing well as long as it was kept generic.

Every AT can come in and cry about this or about that. Every. Single. AT.

Let's not turn this into a "my AT is treated worse than yours" thread