Aura_Familia

The only opinion that mattered on either topic was the devs. The reasons players were giving CAME FROM THE DEVS!

The devs said power cust was difficult to do but they wanted to do it eventually.

It was and they did.

In terms of powerset respecs they HAVE said they DON'T want to do it. They've never really said much about how difficult it is. (At least as far as I've read).

So the discussion about power customization is NOT the same discussion as powerset respecs.

If they ever do decide to allow it I won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Do I think they NEED to do it? NOT AT ALL.
Do I think they SHOULD? NOT AT ALL.

No one is saying that. What they are saying is that THEIR past experiences have lead them to not like pvp. It's irrelevant what those experiences were. All they need to know is that they've done pvp before and for whatever reason don't like it.

Telling such a person "if you only try it you'll like it" is pointless when they clearly don't like it having already tried it. Even more so if they are not really a competitive person. It may have NOTHING to do with the other people they were competitive with in other settings. Those folks may have been the nicest people in the world, and the pvp experience still may have sucked . . . because some folks just don't like being competitive.

Keep in mind that the lord and masters of the accounts for this game are NCSoft. So the devs of this game may be REQUIRED to take the solution that requires the lease amount of time and the least amount of resources from NCSoft's point of view.

One thing I never mentioned is that we might be talking about two different populations here. To keep it simple: newbies and veterans. And I don't just mean in terms of being vets or newbies of this game, or MMOs. I mean all games in general.

As I alluded to there really aren't many different types of playstyles that haven't been tried yet in video gaming history. Thus if you are a new person to gaming "try it you might like it" is very valid. In fact I'd encourage it.

For a vet, it nearly borders on insulting. It's making a HUGE assumption that the person you're talking to hasn't ever tried things like raiding or pvp in other games. That's a great mistake to make.

That very veteran may have already tried many different versions of said activity in OTHER settings.

When people say "I hate raiding" or "I hate pvp", I never make the assumption that they've never tried it before. I usually start from why? And usually what a person like Sam comes back with is their experience from OTHER games.

As I said you don't need to "try it" if you've tried it in other mmos or games and know that you don't like it. There really isn't much variation on raiding, pvp, or competitive play that games can try, that veterans of video games haven't seen yet.

EDIT: As some others went further on, many folks don't like competition. There's no need for them to try it in a video game to know whether or not they'll like it, if they've ALREADY been competitive in other aspects of their life and found that they don't enjoy it. Video games are escapism for a many very great many of folks. Trying something you already know in real life you don't enjoy is the opposite of that.

As has been alluded to already many people play games to GET AWAY from things that take them out of their comfort zone in real life. While others try them to GET uncomfortable (be that being challenged via how fast their reflexes are, how much stress they can put on themselves, how much frightening or tense situations they can endure, how much their adrenaline can get pumping). There are two very distinct reasons that people play games.

It's again why I don't get offended when someone says "if you don't like this new activity in this setting, then you might want to try another setting" or variations of the same. I'd rather a person go and have fun in something they like than trying to coax them into something they most definitely don't.

TL, DR: I most certainly DO NOT agree that you need to try everything in a game to know right of the bat you don't like it. Especially if you've play a great number of video games. I don't think Sam (or anyone else who says they don't like a particular aspect of an mmo or game) is some newbie to video gaming.

I agree with everything but the bolded. There aren't much deviations from standard setups for certain types of content. For instance, someone doesn't have to try raiding in every mmo to know that they dislike raiding. There really isn't much difference in raiding from one game to the next. Another example mmo pvp. There really isn't much difference in pvp from one game to the next. If you don't like killing other player avatars it doesn't matter what mini-games or window dressing they put around it, you're not going to pvp.

Ummm, did you and the person you just respond to call the Punisher sane and logical???


Of all the WORSE examples to use of sanity. LOL!

My villains would approve.

Pretty much this. I . . . just don't see it happening any time (if ever) before issue 30 or something.

THIS.

It's not that bad unless you're a freaking torrent freak.

THIS.

One thing I'll note is that there are different types of games for different types of people. (Which is why I don't take nearly as much offense to the comment of "if you don't like the changes you can play another game" as some folks might. However the question then becomes if everyone who doesn't like them quit, what happens to the game in question? See also: SWG NGE)

Chess: I sure as hell expect it to push me and help me build skill, etc.

A beat-em up like Streets of Rage 2: I'll take some challenge to a certain point, but it's still a beat-em up. I'm not playing it to learn about martial arts, i'm playing it to beta the ever living crap out of everyone.

No an even better example:

Street Fighter IV vs. Marvel vs Capcom 3.

In SFIV I'm playing it to be challenged and I'm fine with having to do thumb busting combos to succeed against the computer. In MvC3 no, I'm playing it just to have fun and expect to do fine button mashing. (In fact they recently added a dumbed down mode where you the controls are even simpler). I would not expect either game (nor demand) to dumb down (in SFIV's case) or come up/aka "man up" (MvC3's case) as it were.

I think where games (both mmos and single player) get into trouble is when they start trying to add TOO MANY features that try to cater to everyone. I think this has the potential to be a huge mistake.

There is also from the player's perspective of trying to advocate to turn a game that was one thing into something they like. I think that's fine to advocate as such but at the same time has the potential to alienate everyone who DOESN'T like that new thing.

No game can please everyone who likes every genre. Designers NEED to be careful that what folks expect from their game is what they get, as they add new features. Adding that new feature may attract/retain one or two or 50 new players, but the question has to be asked: Was it worth it alienating those 500 hundred players to get them?

Bringing it back to this game, I think this relates to the problem with the I13 PVP changes.

As I said above how drastic the changes are (and how fast) are also an issue.

True, however, it's unfortunately it's also owned by investors. The vision often MUST take a back seat to business. A lot of designers (funny enough a from a few closed NCSoft games) need to learn that. Or to the maximum extreme: Star Wars Galaxies. (though it hasn't closed down as far as I know,but it quickly shed A LOT of subs after it went to far in the "change department").

I would argue incremental changes (see this game's history: the slow addition of inventions after ED) are better than drastic all of a sudden changes. (again see this game's history: pvp)

As you said it's a balancing act.

True. That is the ultimate question.

However, I think games can take us out of our comfort zone while still putting things in that we are comfortable with.

What designers need to be careful with (and this is critical for sequels of current single player games as well as mmos) is going so far out of a well established property's comfort zone that they botch what people loved about a property in the first place.

Sure, take risks. But what I've noticed with a few designers is that they go so far into the "new and risky" zone that the forget what made the original fun.

EDIT: case in point, the second super hero mmo ever created versus this game. That game went so far out of what folks liked in this game, in regards to the easy to use teaming interface, that many folks just didn't participate in the teaming aspect, because it was clunky as hell. (Though its gotten better a bit). Thus the casual easy to find teams here were a chore in that game.

This is what I mean when I say designers need to be careful in "trying new things" versus "sticking to what works." It's a balance.

Never said it needs to be available at 1. What I disagree with is it being locked behind Incarnancy.

I think he meant when we get new FREE pieces.

I'm waiting for EG to come back with "other mmos do it" as an argument.

Preemptively: If I wanted to play those mmos I would. Also I've played a few of those. They suck. Full Stop.

So then can we say that NPC pieces should be restricted to npcs?

Cause it's easy to say that also.

And just as RIDICULOUS sounding.

fixed.

EDIT: I get Praetoria needs to be finished. However there are many other stories that they CAN work on at the same time. I don't agree that it's one or the other. That's by their choice.

Adding a tf that has nothing to do with Praetoria in the same issue as they add a Praetorian trial, is possible.

I truly hope you are wrong.

Cause if you're right it means no powerset prolif or anything else before 22.

Great suggestion.

As mentioned in my edit if they add something every issue that has NOTHING to do with the Praetorians I'll be fine.

Turning out to be the most game changing issue since Issue 9 (Inventions).

My VEAT on her own can be in the 56% range of defense. (with about a little more than half for Psi). I can only imagine what Lore will do for her come Issue 20.

so when do you plan to purple your warshade?