Acemace

This thread keeps on giving.

Mod 12 is a bit eager.

Yeah agreed, a teammate who causes team wipes because of lack of experience or limited knowledge of his AT and his groups limits, isn't optimal fun.

But I don't accept your premise that RotP is some sort of panacea to successful Tanking and team management.

"Surviving is not tanking", is a silly proposition.


I think some of you would enjoy coming to one of the monthly Tanker Tuesday events on Champion each 1st Tues of every month (going on 70 months). Good times.

I'm not picking on you Grey, but that argument has always lost me.
If my fire tank had a full tray of large res, like I used to for Hami Raids, by that argument you could say Hami had to defeat my tank 16 times to really defeat it.

Like I've already said it's more a matter of taking and slotting a power you normally would hope you don't have to use. In a tight build that pick and slot(s) could go towards something that's frequently used, in a lot of cases to better effect.



Personally I make Bonfire work on my fire/rad troller even though no one in those forums likes it, so if it works for you on whatever level that's what matters.



Dr. Phil? =P

"You can have a really survivable build with RotP and then still choose not to survive XD."

"Surviving" is the Tankers one big trick.

Ok. First off it's, Raise of the Sphincter.

Now the dead horse, from beta 2004 till now I've so uncommonly teamed with a FA Tanker using RotP even in the heyday of Burners that it's actually a minor surprise to see a -self resurrect devotee- Tank in game, and the few times it's happened I had an odd feeling the individual had a proclivity to underground blood oath societies (likely a Twilight enthusiast).


As OP mentioned ("Against all advice, I took Rise of the Phoenix") very infrequently does anyone in this area of the forums with knowledge of the AT suggest taking RotP as anything more then an afterthought if there's room (usually there isn't) and if it floats your boat.


On the other hand there are players from time to time who will point out how a power like RotP is a useful part of their build and playstyle on their Tank.
That's fine, I just don't want to ever team with them, because I don't enjoy the company of Tankers who need to be defeated to manage aggro ;] (+4 / aggro cap mobs, not -1 Radio missions).

Any other AT including Brutes are welcome to whatever flavor of self-rez the Devs set upon it, but for Tanks, and specifically for a weaker armor like FA, a built in rezzer is often a self fulfilling prophecy if you choose to let it be.
So when it's all boiled down, my biggest issue from the beginning of the CoH Tank, is that this is a lazy design decision for this AT, a class who's one shining attribute is resistance to defeat.


That's my pov, but like I told OP if 'you' have fun with this power and it fits your playstyle, that's what should matter to you.

My wife's solo base on an alt server will enjoy the little boost come Aug 10th.
Though, she'll have to play my toons until she catches up.

This may be a candidate for War Witches "if the system isn't fun then maybe the system needs to change" endeavors.

lol
Really if you want to push Battle Axe for some type of buff you're selling yourself short by trying to make it an exact statistical copy of War Mace, a set it's already virtually the equivalent of.

What your argument should be directed at is Stone Melee which has a higher ST and AoE score compared to both Axe and Mace while it gets a complete pass on the weapon redraw animation that lowers dps on both of those sets.


Heavy Mallet does 101. damage with a 75% chance for knockdown while it's equivalent in Axe has roughly the same end cost but does 87. damage with a 50% knockdown chance, and it suffers from the weapon redraw on top of that, like WM, BS etc.



I'm not opposed to Axe getting some type of buff though I don't think it underperforms at all, but making War Mace out to be the boogyman to that end is just beyond silly because Mace has had a stigma for such a long time as a terrible power set that even after it's buff it's seldom seen on new Tanks and rarely comes up for build advice in these forums.

If someone were going to push for anything, it should be to have Axe and Mace statistically closer to Stone in damage, and all weapon sets should have the redraw hitch removed with its dps penalty, just like Stone Melee already has (well never had, an issue Castle and BaBs have tackled in the past with only a 'maybe someday').

When Castle set out to upgrade War Mace starting in Dec 07 he stated that he wanted the set to be more of a smashing AoE set, to that end in Feb 08 Crowd Controls radius was increased from 5’ to 8’, while Shatters radius was decreased from 10’ to 8’ but it's arc of attack went from 20 degrees to 45 degrees.
This is also when Crowd Control and Shatter were changed from knock back to knock down.


The last big update to the set came in Dec 08 (one minor change came in Jan 09 range and radius of CC WM and Shatt were corrected to 8') when Clobbers damage scale was changed to 2.29 and it's base endurance cost to 15.18 and Shatters Max Targets Hit were reduced from 10 to 5, while
Crowd Controls m/t went from 5 to 10.



So mace has been quite a project in recent years, basically up until late 07 Battle Axe, and every other Tanker secondary for that matter, were far superior to War Mace in nearly all measurable areas, which only makes using it as the standard BA should now be 'lifted' to, chuckle worthy.

Keep in mind, that in addition to modifying BA attack times and rooted portion of animations with the general sweep of melee sets back in 07, Axe is one of the few strong Tanker sets that hasn't had a reduction since 04 and rarely has come up as needing a buff of whatever flavor through the years.



"There's mitigation there certainly, but it's unpredictable."

Experience with both Axe and Mace at 50 suggests to most players that a mix of somewhat effective mitigation is inferior to a single focus on a secondary knockdown effect with literally every attack that has the potential to keep an entire mob off it's feet for a portion of time, something that isn't remotely possible with most War Mace attacks at mag 2 stun.

In other words a solid chain of an effective control is not "unpredictable" when compared to a mix of mediocre stuns and knock down, the former simply presents superior damage mitigation.


The type of mitigation one set has over the other is not a minor detail when comparing two virtually identical secondaries, especially when perceived deficiencies with BA are slightly exaggerated, consider the sets as a whole.




Bash has the same Damage, Endurance Cost, and Recharge Time as Beheader. It has the same chance to Stun as Barrage [EM].

Pulverize has the same Damage, Endurance Cost, and Recharge Time as Chop. Pulverize has a 20% Stun mag 2 chance. Energy Punch [EM] has a 30% Stun mag 2 chance. This power has the same dps as Axe but has a less effective Stun than EM.

Jawbreaker has the same Damage, Endurance Cost, and Recharge Time as Gash. Jawbreaker has a 75% Knockup chance while Gash has a 50% Knockdown chance. This power has the same dps as it's equivalent in Axe but has a better chance of Knockup.

Clobber does more Damage, with higher Endurance Cost and slightly slower Recharge Time then Swoop. Clobber has a mag 3 Stun, while Swoop has a 70% Knockup chance.

Whirling Mace has the same Endurance Cost and Recharge Time as Whirling axe. Whirling Axe has a 50% chance to knock down, while Whirling Mace has higher damage but only a 30% chance to disorient (the same % as Energy Melee's Whirling Hands).

Shatter does less damage, but costs less endurance (11. to 14.) and has a faster recharge than Cleave (12s to 15s). Both powers have an 80% chance of Knockdown, while shatter has a much larger cone (45 to 20).

Crowd Control does less damage, but costs less endurance and has a faster recharge (12s to 15s) than Pendulum. Crowd Control has a 60% chance of knockdown while Pendulum has a 50%. Crowd Control has a higher Range, Radius, and hits twice as many Max Targets (10 to 5) as Pendulum.


You end up with just what Castle set out to do from 07 through 09, to make two carbon copied sets slightly distinct by enhancing AoE for the once bottom dweller Mace and Axe maintains strong ST damage with reliable mitigation.

-bed time, make what you want and have fun OP. =]

It isn't only the higher percentages of mitigating secondary effects that favor BA, but as you say it's the drunken wandering animation that reduces a stuns effectiveness in WM.
Because typically, as with the fear in Burn, it turns an npc's melee attacks, which favor your Tank, into ranged attacks which is seldom an advantage for this AT or the team.


Anyone here would suggest not giving up on the set until you at least have a full slotted Clobber, and ideally Crowd Control, the two gems in the secondary.

A 'possibility' exists that this could get green lighted so I've been told, but it could use some support or feedback/ideas, hop on over here if you're at all interested.

Yes, necro, but sometimes these ideas have to be pushed for a year or more before the devs will give them a glance.

Ah so you take our learned advice and run over to those wannabe Tanks huh.

Now we know, no more nuggets of wisdom for jue.

"Keep pushing", we will. An updated process would be huge news.

Professional help has arrived.


ps, luv to see pics of this partay.

Missing from that argument is that knock up or down which every Axe attack does is considerably more effective and desirable as damage mitigation then the equivalent disorients in Mace.


As is, Axe already simply has much better control next to Mace, even WA has a 20% higher chance of performing a superior type of mitigation compared to it's counterpart, that isn't a minor detail when you're balancing similar sets.


Castle's already modified Battle Axe's attack times and rooted portion of animations with the general sweep of melee sets back in 07, and looking at the math it's barely behind War Mace in general performance as you can see in Starsman's charts.


When all factors are considered the differences between the sets are negligible, as both currently have fairly good attack speeds, some disorienting and knockUp/Down capabilities, an accuracy bonus, moderate to high endurance use, heavy smashing aoe, and strong ST damage.


So there isn't a glaring disparity here of Mace over Axe that would require BA to be given a unique advantage.



I'll just add that if you really want to push for a change to BA, whatever the odds are, you'd probably have a better shot starting a thread in the tanker section and trying to build some support. Though this idea is unlikely to happen.

"again"? Heh, I haven't gone anywhere cupcake.

Go to Freedom.


Champion does have the best Tanker event bar none, once a month the various celebs Tank Drama, the winner takes home the coveted Drama Queen temp title.

Nonsense, some of my best Tanking has been while under the influence.