Aett_Thorn

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Density - think Vision from the comics..

make yourself super-dense (+Def) or decrease your density (can't attack or be attacked), possibly affect enemies.. make them so dense they can't move and so on.

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Good. That's not how I saw it when I was voting. and while you might think that, is that how the Devs view it? Is that how everyone else who took the survey viewed it? Personal interpretation shouldn't be as large of a factor as it was.

A general description of the sets and how the Devs think they'd work should have accompanied each of the surveys.

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How else would density control be used? It is a common concept. Characters with Water or Sand compositions would use density control as their means of defense.

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Again, good. That's not how I saw it. And people with water or sand bodies, like Sandman, I would regard differently than something like Vision. So there are several different interpretations of what this set would actually do. Is it a defense set (you're less dense, so some attacks go right through you)? Is is a resistance set (you make yourself more dense so attacks do more damage)? A combo of both? Something else? What?

That's what I'd like to know. What is the basic concept behind the sets FOR THE DEVS? Because even though you think you might get the concept of it, what if it gets voted in, and then several months down the line the Devs come out with something that isn't even close to what you were thinking?

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Please don't take away my power to see through walls it rocks. If anyone is complaining about that shame on you.

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What on earth are you talking about?

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Density - think Vision from the comics..

make yourself super-dense (+Def) or decrease your density (can't attack or be attacked), possibly affect enemies.. make them so dense they can't move and so on.

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Good. That's not how I saw it when I was voting. and while you might think that, is that how the Devs view it? Is that how everyone else who took the survey viewed it? Personal interpretation shouldn't be as large of a factor as it was.

A general description of the sets and how the Devs think they'd work should have accompanied each of the surveys.

Posi, how are you going to account for the skewedness of the poll?

What I mean is that we have no idea what your intentions were behind some of the sets. Like, how is Vibration different than Fore Fields? How is either of those different than current armors?

Shields are going to be massively over-represented in this survey because they're an easy concept to grasp. Density, Vibration, and FF I feel would be underrepresented because we have no idea what they actually MEAN. The poll, as put forward by your team, will be significantly skewed because of factors like this. You've introduced several complicating variables into the equation.

I'm not saying that shields wouldn't win anyways, but really, I mean how do you expect us to choose between vibration and density armor if we don't know how they'd be different?

I vote for DC! Midway down the east coast to get all the people from the mid-Atlantic and it wouldn't be a far drive from NYC/NJ or even South Carolina.

Give them time, man. Even the people who tested the bejeebus out of the system on test probably couldn't tell you optimal slotting for different powersets. It's going to take time before most people can write guides outlining good and bad IOs for different powers within a set.

No problem! Glad to be of service!

Patience, young grasshoppa.

1) Check out the paragonwiki article about enhancements, and you should be able to find a good table there of the progression on Inventions.

2) The recipe used to create it, most likely

3) Theory is that you can only slot an invention if it's three or less levels above you. You could slot any inventions below your level.

However, all this could change depending on what's going on behind closed doors on the test server.

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2) Skittishness: Back in the day, even low-level tankers had a good deal of survivability. However, with the Global Defense Nerf of I5, base resistance and defense values were slashed for many of the tanker primaries. This has led to a lowering of survivability in the lower levels for Tanks. What this means is that low level tanks may have had several experiences where, in doing their job, they died many times. This leads them to believe that they can’t handle the aggro for their teams, and so they don’t try to get all the aggro. It is not their fault, and it is not them being selfish, it is merely a reaction to the way they’ve seen the game work out for them.

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Taunt actuallly increased my survivability in the early levels. There where quite a few times where there were mobs that were close enough together where I would have aggro'd both of them had I charged right in. By taunting one of the mobs and ducking behind something I was usually able to pull just one of the mobs so that I was in a situation where I could handle the aggro (i.e. one mob rather than two). In addition, by ducking behind something you usually get hit less than you would if you just charged right in.

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This has more to do with skill and tactics that just using taunt to pull everyone towards you, which is kind of the point. I could use taunt to separate two groups that are close together, but the same could be said for the origin temp power. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a tanker, in the low levels, using taunt in a big group, attracting all the attention of a large spawn onto them (aka, 'doing their job') and then taking too much damage too quickly as a result.

Skill and tactics can prevent this, and taunt can be a part of that, but it's not what I was talking about.

Posting this in the guides section to make sure it sticks around. After I first created this thread, many wanted it stickied. Since that didn't happen, I'm putting it in the guides section. Feel free to link people to here if need be.

Oftentimes, people will come into our nice, peaceful Tanker forums, and pose a rant about how their ‘stupid’ tank couldn’t hold aggro, and tells us all that if you don’t have taunt, you’re not a tank. Now, as many of us are aware, taunt is not the be-all, end-all of Tankerdom. It is a tool at our disposal, but not the only one. This thread is intended as a response to taunt rants, and also to highlight the two different sides of the debate, as both do have points.

Myth 1: Tanks with taunt can obviously manage aggro

Herein lies the basis for many of the rants that appear on our forums. However, it’s plain just not true. A tanker that can’t manage aggro without taunt may not have the ability to manage aggro with taunt. Being a Tanker is a mindset, not a power. Just because a Tanker has taunt in his arsenal does not increase his Tanker mindset by even a little amount.

Now, obviously some Tankers can handle aggro much better with taunt than without. My point here is just that this is not always the case. Being able to manage aggro is a skill that is independent of the taunt power. I’ve seen tanks that can manage aggro quite well without taunt, and have seen tanks with taunt unable to keep a team safe.

Myth 2: Tankers who don’t want to take Taunt are just being selfish

A large portion of tankers without taunt aren’t doing it to be selfish. There are two factors at work here for why a Tanker might not take taunt: 1) Gauntlet and 2) Skittishness.

1) Gauntlet: When this mechanism is working properly, some tanks can use a combination of it and aggro auras to keep a full team of 8 completely safe. They may have decided that taunt was taking up a power selection that could be put to better use to put down the enemy or protect themselves. As long as they can keep the team alive, no one on the team should even notice that they don’t have taunt.
2) Skittishness: Back in the day, even low-level tankers had a good deal of survivability. However, with the Global Defense Nerf of I5, base resistance and defense values were slashed for many of the tanker primaries. This has led to a lowering of survivability in the lower levels for Tanks. What this means is that low level tanks may have had several experiences where, in doing their job, they died many times. This leads them to believe that they can’t handle the aggro for their teams, and so they don’t try to get all the aggro. It is not their fault, and it is not them being selfish, it is merely a reaction to the way they’ve seen the game work out for them.

Myth 3: Taunt is useless

Even the most die-hard anti-taunt Tanker will agree that taunt is far from useless. It is a great way to get mobs off of a squishy teammate at range. Not many tanker secondaries have ranged attacks, and no tanker secondary has an auto-hit ranged attack. Thus, when push comes to shove, and a mob is bearing down on a squishy, there are only two options: 1) Taunt, and 2) Go over there and punch him in the face. Taunt is usually quicker, and also usually doesn’t lead to the loss of further aggro, of which 2) can sometimes cause.

Myth 4: Tankers are the only ones who need to manage aggro

This one comes up a lot, and is completely false. Even the best Tanker in the world is sometimes going to lose aggro. It may be rare, but it does occur. At that point, the squishies are going to find that they have to fend for themselves. Every AT in the game has a responsibility to manage aggro. A Tanker should not be expected to fully manage aggro if another player causes mobs to scatter or causes a mass knockback in random directions. At this point, a good tanker will quickly regain aggro on the majority of mobs, but he may have to let lesser threats go until he gets the aggro on the big guys. The other ATs are going to have to deal with these stragglers until the Tanker can get a handle on things again.

Let me repeat: It is YOUR responsibility to manage YOUR aggro if YOU mess with a Tanker’s aggro.

Myth 5: Gauntlet and aggro auras are not good enough to manage aggro by themselves

Again, it depends on the Tanker. Some Tankers can do a great deal of aggro management with just these two tools. Others cannot. However, don’t judge a Tanker as useless just because you don’t see Taunt in his power list. Let him show you what a tauntless tanker can do. If he can’t do it well, then suggest that he get taunt. Don’t come here and rant. We don’t know him, and we probably aren’t him.

However, with this in mind, a tanker should keep in mind his team makeup, and realize that other ATs can get damage and effect auras that can compete with his aggro. While a tanker's aggro auras work differently that other AT's with aura powers, these auras can compete for the aggro of a tanker, and depending on the competition, the Tanker may lose aggro. It is not as easy as it looks.

Myth 6: Tankers with Taunt just aren’t good Tankers

Taunt is a tool that many find useful. Having taunt in your repertoire does not mean that you use it as a crutch for otherwise bad tanking. It is a good power, and when used properly, can be a very nice power to have. However, having taunt doesn’t make you a good or bad Tanker, just as not having taunt doesn’t make you a good or bad Tanker.

Myth 7: Once a Tanker enters battle, he's got aggro

This one's a bit tricky, but as GladDog pointed out to me, is fairly important for other ATs to realize. If a tanker is relying on taunt instead of aggro auras to get and hold aggro, it can take him a few seconds to get the full aggro of the entire group. Why is this, you might ask? Taunt only hits up to 5 mobs at once. So if the Tanker has no aggro aura, and jumps into a spawn of 12 mobs, it will take the Tanker at least 3 uses of taunt to have full aggro control.

The various taunt auras are also different. Invincibility and Chilling Embrace are Auto-hit. Mud Pots has some auto-hit characteristics. This means that they can attact aggro almost immediately. Blazing Aura, however, requires a To-Hit check to work, and may take a little longer for the tanker to get the aggro of the whole group.

Also, the aggro cap is set to 17 mobs. So if there are more than that around the Tanker, realize that anything you do could strip mobs away from the Tanker and cause them to come straight at you. This ties in with managing your own aggro, because if you realize that the Tanker has more than 17 mobs on him, it's probably not the best idea to launch an AoE that could get you more than you can handle. If the Tanker has 17 mobs aggroed on him, he can taunt all he wants and that mob beating on you is going to stay there.

Myth 8: All Tanker Sets are created equal for holding aggro

Sets like Ice/ and Fire/ get their aggro auras very early in their career. Many Stone/ tanks suggest holding off their aggro aura (mudpots) until after stamina due to endurance issues, but they can get their aggro aura fairly early. Invulnerability Tankers, however, cannot get their aggro aura until level 18. This means that at low levels, Fire/, Ice/ and Stone/ Tankers can have a much easier time holding aggro without taunt than Invuln/ Tankers. Thus, taunt can be more useful to some primaries than others, especially at lower levels.

If you would like to know more about the Taunt mechanism as a whole, I advise you to read Circeus' Guide to Taunt. It is a great reference for those wishing to know more about how taunt works.

I think that about sums it up, but if there are more that I’m forgetting, please feel free to PM me and I will add them to the list. Please do not add items yourself. I can’t really stop you, but I would prefer if we do this in a civil manner and try to keep the list concise. I feel that would be better accomplished by letting me add things to the list than have 40 posts after this with random facts in them.

Also, feel free to direct any taunt rants that start up to this thread, and leave it at that. I don’t know if this will prevent flame-fests or not, but we can at least try.

Edit - Finally got around to putting this as a guide, and updated sections on gauntlet not working (well, most of them, but I left one in just in case it stops working again).

It can be found here

One thing I noticed in this guide is on Mud Pots. You mention slotting it for only EndRed and taunt. Now, most stone tanks I've seen on these boards and in the game who take this power usually mention that they recommend picking it up after stamina, since it is a huge end drain.

Also, while part of Mud Pots is autohit, the damage part isn't. Slotting for Acc in that can help. Most of the time I see people slot 2 Acc, 2 Dam, and 2 EndRed in these damage auras. I'm curious to know why you recommend slotting the way you do, since it seems very non-standard to me.

Well, have you actually bought a version of the game, or were you on a trial account?

If you were on a trial account, you'll need to buy a full version of the game.

If you already have a full version of the game, go to the CoH homepage. In there, there will be a button to the left for "Account". Click on that, and then click on "Manage Account". It will take you to the NCSoft page where your account info is stored. Set it up in there for monthly billing (or whatever billing schedule you want) and it can automatically charge your credit card every month to let you keep playing.

Something tells me that will the grandville and archnos maps, this TF is going to be lag-tastic.

Just so you know, the Mods locked this down because people weren't reading all the way through before posting. Lets try not to make them do it again. Pretty please?

Well right now, killing all of those mobs would give you X chances of getting a recipe/invention salvage. So what you're suggesting would promote more farming than the system as proposed would create.

You forgot Possible Solution 5: Repeatable level 45-50 story arcs.

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Minus 1 billion coolness points for not calling the thread Drops II: Electric Boogaloo.

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I actually wanted to go with Drops II: Drops Harder

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How about Drops II: Drop with a Vengence

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Drops II: The Search for more money!

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Thanks again for the clarification.

Do you guys at least understand WHY we're saying this though?

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Yes, we hear you and understand.

Please again take note of Doctor Brainstorm's original post:

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Now I hear you guys... you all seem to dislike the Story Arc aspect of this system. I've had some discussions with the team yesterday about what we could do instead, and still keep the flavor of the four pool system, because having the extra three pools allows us to not only reward risk/reward, but time/reward as well. Takes longer to do a Task Force? Here's a nice bonus you can't get anywhere else. Finish the Respec trial, but already have all your Respecs? Here's a nice reward that carries with it some good inherent value.

Now again, I must stress, the majority of sets, including entire complete sets come from simply defeating enemies. All the costume piece and temp power recipes come from defeating enemies. There are Rare recipes (ones that have a worse chance to drop than others) in Pool A (the defeating enemies pool) as well.

We also will be actively monitoring datamining on every aspect of this system through all of Training Room and into Live.

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Yup yup. I wasn't trying to be snarky at all (and I think you know that that's not me when talking to you guys), I just want to make sure that you guys understand that we're not just asking for something for free. We just want to make sure that our Level 50s (whether they have or have not done every arc) isn't getting hosed when it comes to certain sets.

So far, the feedback we've been getting on this has really raised my spirits though. So thank you guys for that.

Thanks again for the clarification.

Do you guys at least understand WHY we're saying this though?

What content are you being forced to do, exactly? Nobody is forcing you to make IOs at all. After I9, if you're slotted with SOs, you'll still be able to play at the exact same level as you were before I9.

So I don't get why you think you're being forced to do anything.

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Besides, Doc and Lighthouse said thay're looking at exactly what some of us seem to be concerned about the most so... damn. I need a new thing to get mad at. Suggestions?


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You could get upset at the lack of control IO sets that really fit Dominators or even Controllers who don't want to slot controls for damage, or that even the Confuse sets require us to slot for *damage* (really silly -- there is not a single damaging confuse in the entire game).

Or you could get upset over...hrm...I dunno. Surely there's going to be plenty to get upset over!

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We have not seen all of the sets that can be created. We've seen a mere fraction of them. Wait until the whole list is out.

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Instead we are looking into other options to get you the Pool B choice so level 50s don't feel gimped.

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Any hints?

We need way more info to get good and frothing mad.

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I can get good and frothing mad without any info, thank you very much

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I'm getting my froth from a cappucino right now so, I'm good.

Besides, Doc and Lighthouse said thay're looking at exactly what some of us seem to be concerned about the most so... damn. I need a new thing to get mad at. Suggestions?

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chickens. Chickens are evil, completely evil. Get mad at the chickens.

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Instead we are looking into other options to get you the Pool B choice so level 50s don't feel gimped.

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Any hints?

We need way more info to get good and frothing mad.

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I can get good and frothing mad without any info, thank you very much

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Inventions has been touted as something that shelved level 50's can partake in. Level 50's that have completed all their story arcs already. Please, how can both of those occur? Level 50's can not experience IO's if they are locked out of acheiving specific rewards because they happened to hit the level cap before I9.

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This is exactly my concern as well.