Aett_Thorn
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Posts
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Joined
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Since your question was already answered, I'll simply say, "Welcome back!"
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Agreed that Dual Blades' attacks need some secondary effects. With the newer sets coming out with secondary effects, despite their "better" combo system, there's no reason to not have some sort of secondary effect on DB attacks. But also agreed with the response saying that a straight -Def on each attach is the way to go. Variety would be nice.
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I also agree with this. There's no reason to lock them out of ALL of the options, even if you still locked them out of some. But I think they should be able to get all options.
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Quote:Disagree. Ice Tankers are great at holding aggro because of the two aggro auras. And, since damage factors into Threat, doing damage on top of Taunt multiplies the Taunt. Yes, it is minor damage unslotted, but over time it will add up to a significant portion of your damage, especially if you are surrounded by enemies, which you should be. Both auras can only hit up to 10 enemies, so if you have 17 around you, having both auras on can mean that you rarely need to use Taunt.Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
If you don't plan on soloing, Then consider skipping Icicles. It does 8 damage per tick. A lot of people like Damage auras and usually I do too! But on an ice tanker, where you already have Chilling Embrace as a taunt aura, icicles is redundant and the damage is very low... and lethal. -
Quote:Johnny, not all of us feel that Tankers are slow, plodding, redundant aggro monkeys. Why can't you understand that? I have never felt much slower on my tankers, because my superior defenses earlier on have allowed me to increase my difficulty earlier, or to herd up two or three groups at once earlier, and take them down all at once.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
So if Brutes get nerfed and Tankers are left the same slow, plodding, redundant aggro monkey they are (because lets face it, Tankers in no way a threat to Scrapper superiority), Scrappers look all the better for it.
That's all I hear Claws saying when he argues for Brute nerfs instead of improving Tankers. -
Quote:You guys have a genie in the game. Can't you just ask her for a wish?Originally Posted by Black Pebble
This is correct. The belief was that slots could be added without much fuss. Unfortunately it turned out that it wasnt "just that easy."
The game has certain expectations of how things should be. Changing those expectations can have far-reaching consequences that are difficult to foresee. Missing set bonuses, requiring respecs, were just the start.
Redefining fundamental expectations is not a trivial task. -
Quote:pffffftttt! nerf-herder!Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I agree.
That's why I've been advocating Brutes getting those caps lowered.
ATs have one set of caps for things that are not their specialty. This is across ALL ATs.
Scrappers have a 75% resistance cap. That is the same resistance cap that is shared by everything other than Tankers, Brutes, and the Epic ATs.
Tankers have the same damage cap as everything that is not a Scrapper, Stalker, Blaster, Corruptor, or Brute.
Scrappers, Stalkers, and Brutes have the same base values for all survivability affecting things other than hit points. It is not unreasonable to assume that if Defenders, Corruptors, Blasters, Controllers, Dominators, and Masterminds had access to Scrapper, Stalker, and Brute secondaries their base values would be the same.
Tankers have higher base values for all those things. It is significantly easier for a Tanker to reach a target number (like 45%) than it is for any of the other ATs. A Shield or SR tanker can reach the soft-cap with little or no IO slotting necessary. Scrappers, Stalkers, and Brutes cannot say the same.
I don't believe Tankers deserve Brute damage caps any more than I believe Brutes deserve Tanker resistance caps.
Brutes are the outlier that does not fit the template in ALL CATEGORIES. They have higher base and max HP than anything but a Tanker, higher resistance caps than anything but a Tanker, and a higher damage cap than anything. And all of their base values are AT LEAST as good as a Scrapper.
If you look at the numbers for base HP, max HP, damage caps, and resistance caps on Paragon Wiki, it becomes very clear that Brutes do not fit in the same templates as every other AT in the game. They are overperforming in every single category, with no real weaknesses to balance it. If they were not so overpowered, every other AT would balance out. The only reason an imbalance even exists is because Brutes aren't playing by the same rules as every other AT regarding their balance point.
I agree with you. I think that if Brutes were in their right place, that Tankers wouldn't even need to be looked at. I also think that the various ATs should have had some Defense hard-caps as well, but can't put that cat back into the bag now, either. I still just can't believe that Brute players raised such a fuss out of losing 5% from their resistance cap at one point, despite that most of them couldn't reach it by themselves anyways. -
Quote:Actually, I would think that most Corrs would have to spend MORE slots on their primary than a MM would. MMs need to slot their pets, and then a few slots in any other abilities they take from their primary. Most Corrs would 5-6 slot each power they pick from their primary, and probably take 7-8 powers from it.Originally Posted by Foreverett
I have to say I disagree with most the people on here saying Poison Corrs aren't better than the other AT's. My Sonic/Poison Corr has weaker poison debuffs sure, but he's also got the sonic -res debuffs as well. When you are a MM you are probably wasting way more slots on your Primary than sticking them in poison, than a Corr will (I said probably :P). So hypothetically Corrs can slot their poisons more, if you are a pure debuffer like me and only really use 3 Sonic Powers to debuff. This allows me to have a wider range of debuffs, more allowance to slot, and can focus on healing/debuffing the whole time. With sonic you can also go a build with 3-4 holds/controls as well if you want to go that route, but then you might as well make a troller if you are one for controls. Venomous Gas works pretty well for my Sonic Corr but like others said with Fire maybe not as much. The Debuff you get from Gas is very nice though. You could also try Rad Blast/Poison Corr if debuffage, and Rad might work good with Venomous Gas, but I don't have much experience with Rad Blast. Good luck with you /Poison toon! Love mine!
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Well, I will admit that I think that if a Brute built for Tanking can steal aggro from a Tanker built for Tanking, then we have a problem. However, that situation is fairly rare in actual play. But I do still think that it is an issue. Raising the Tanker's taunt durations across the board (attacks, auras, Taunt power) by a second would largely eliminate this problem. But I don't think that is all that is necessary, or that even that should be done.
Quite honestly, I'd want to know exactly what was the problem before discussing a solution. I mean, even in my consolidated Tanker improvements thread, people are all over the place with their suggestions. Tankers should have better survivability. Tankers should have more aggro control. Tankers should have more debuffs. Tankers should have more offense. Tankers should be easier on the endurance.
If the Devs ar going to look to "fix" Tankers, it would help to have an actual issue to fix. I think that several people (including Johnny) have some good ideas that will fix A problem. I just don't know if it will fix THE problem. Or whether there is a problem at all. If the Tanker community is so disjointed in how they want to fix the issue, it may be that there is no issue at all. -
Quote:Not proven, no. But it can happen. It depends on a lot of factors, but the chance of that happening are low. However, given similar slotting and playstyle (meaning if both the Brute and Tanker are taunting and attacking), then the Brute can definitely steal aggro if they've got a bunch of Fury. As soon as the Brute is doing twice the damage of the Tanker + 1 damage, the Brute will steal the aggro.Originally Posted by Vitality
Tank is a playstyle...it's even shown that way in the new character creation screen.
A Brute can be a Tank.
Being a Tanker does not make you a Tank.
Is it proven that a Brute who is just attacking an AV will steal the agro from a Tanker who is attacking and taunting (with enhanced Taunt) said AV? -
For the Devs to do what you're suggestion (at least how I read it), it would require a fundamental change to the Threat formula, and I REALLY don't want the devs to fiddle with something that fundamental. Because if they break it, it messes up everyone.
There's currently no way for the game to determine how Threat is being generated (i.e. if it's by a Taunt power or a gauntlet effect or just damage). To change Brutes so that they can only get and maintain aggro on up to ten enemies from their gauntlet effect would require a fundamental change to how those powers work, including writing a lot of new code for every attack and aura for that AT.
The Threat formula just isn't (according to my understanding of it) complex enough to handle what you're asking it to do. And any changes to it could fundamentally break how Threat is handled. So I'd rather go a different direction than that.
And remember: Gauntlet isn't a thing. It's a collection of effects that increase the TauntDurationRemaining value on enemies. And whether from attacks, auras, or Taunt, it's the same effect. -
Fire/Kinetic/Ice Tanker. Because why not?
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Quote:Except how would you do this given the game's mechanics? I don't think that the aggro cap can tell what sources are driving it, so how would it know if Brutes were generating the aggro from their version of gauntlet or through pool powers? Everything just goes on a Threat list, and once over 17, nothing goes on that list (or, actually, it's the 17 highest threat values, which complicates things further). So I don't think that the first one is doable, although all other ATs could have a aggro cap lower than a Tankers, I don't think lowering other AT's aggro cap is the way to go. Otherwise, you could be attacking 16 enemies, and only being attacked by 10.Originally Posted by New Dawn
First paragraph, make it so Brutes can apply gauntlet and taunt to a maximum of 10 yet through presence and more they can still aggro cap.
Second paragraph, allow AVs to resist Brutes Gauntlet better than they would Tankers gauntlet. Brutes with a player who thinks like a Scrapper often do not have taunt or use it in a unproductive/counter-productive manner.
Your only way for a Tanker to lose aggro to a Brute is actually wrong. I can meet you ingame and prove it.
Brutes are imo OP.
Secondly, there's no way for an AV to selectively resist an effect based on the target. So to do this, you'd have to give AVs Taunt resistance, and then give Tankers' taunt effects a higher value when used against AVs. But that would affect more than just Brutes, and what if a team/league doesn't have a Tanker on it? Then does the AV attack everything that would be generating more Threat than the Brute would be? What about MMs that use Provoke to be Tankerminds for their pets?
Brutes may be OP (and I tend to think they are), but I don't think that your suggestions would fix the actual problem, while they'd create many more. -
[QUOTE=Johnny_Butane;4285766]Quote:Brutes can now run at perma soft-cap and perma-hard cap resistance by themselves now? This is what we're talking about, Johnny. You constantly change your position depending on how the argument is going.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The moment you start talking about the point at which tankers and brutes are living consistently at their defensive caps, you've just cut your own legs out from under you, because the devs interpret that situation as outside the normal range of game balance.
So +0x1 Radios are now outside the normal range of game balance?
Brutes CANNOT be as tough as Tankers by themselves. They can be tough enough, but the Tanker will always be tougher given the same slotting. But if you start talking about always having a certain buff set with you, or several buff sets with you, then you're starting to add in variables that the Devs don't expect to be normal. Having A buffer with you isn't abnormal. ALWAYS having that buffer with you is. And on Leagues or other large-team scenarios, where there are a lot of buffs going on, most people will admit that there is a problem with anything BUT the buffing classes. So those are out, too.
So talk about normal scenarios that aren't ridiculous, and we can make some progress, here. At 0/+1, the Brute isn't as tough as a Tanker. Both will steamroll that content, though. -
A Plant/Fire Dom has plenty of AoE control and damage abilities, and is solid in both team and solo play. You might want to try that, too. Your core abilities will be in place pretty much before level 12, with a few higher-level abilities that you'll pick up later.
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Water Jet will be normalized to 80 feet when the other blast sets get their change, but will likely have the 40' range when released (since it will be before the other blaster changes).
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Quote:Yeah, /Poison is one of those sets I've always really wanted to like, but just never have. It seems like everything it has can be done better by a different set. Or at the very least, easier. Even against single targets it seems like it's missing what you really need. Oh well, gonna use it anyways, and see how it does. It's sad because I think it just needs a few minor changes to make it really good.Originally Posted by ToxicEel
My main is a /poison mastermind and I really want to enjoy the set, but honestly it comes with a lot downsides. I feel like the best power in the whole set is the AoE cone slow and that doesn't say much. Venomous gas is hard to use for ranged MM's so I imagine it's got similar difficulties for Corruptors. It should really be a targeted toggle for both AT's as having to get up in the middle of everything on a primarily ranged character is never optimal.
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Quote:As much as this would cause a huge amount of complaints, that does seem like it would be the more logical choice.Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Every post I read just makes me think Brutes need a good nerfing.
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Golf, did you put some sort of proc into Smoke Grenade? If you did, that would be what is causing the aggro, not the grenade itself. If you haven't, then I would bug it, because this power is not supposed to cause aggro to my knowledge.
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Wish Dual Blades had both Axe and Mace patterns to use.
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Yeah, I'm only on season 1 of the show, too (didn't have HBO for season 1, didn't get to watch the DVDs until Season 2 was almost half over). So I'm going purely off of the books at this point too, with a bit of season 2 mixed in.
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Quote:Based on the British show "QI", the triple point of water is actually 0.01 degrees Celcius. And yes, this is even more pedant. But hey, if Dara O'Briain is going to lose points for it, so should you.Originally Posted by St_Angelius
Sorry to be a pedant, but 0 degrees Celsuis is arctually not the point at which I melts nor at which ice freezes as some think, but the point at which water can exist in all 3 states, liquid, solid and gasious.
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When you're on that character, open the map up. In the bottom right corner of the map should be an "options" button, or something like that. Open that up and make sure that the teammates thing is turned on. You may have turned it off accidentally a while ago.
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Quote:While I don't think that this kind of boost should have been some sort of inherent passive, I do agree that the mechanism for the boost is a little odd. But I think they wanted to keep each set a bit different.Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Which really confuses me, why bother putting the survivability into a toggle at all if you have to change a second bit of code to stop it supressing? Just have it passive and be done, then you can still actually revamp the awful powers to make the sets appealing for more reasons that 'this sustain power keeps me alive better than that one'.
If it had been me doing a change to Blasters, I probably would have made Defiance add some sort of survival boost as well. Let blasters need to keep attacking to be more survivable. I think that fits well with the AT's offensive stance. Have Defiance grant +1.0 Mez protection and +50% regen with each attack, with a maximum amount of stacks possible for each of those.
But I'm not in charge, so probably not going to happen. I also thought they needed more damage to separate them from other damage ATs, but whatever. -
Quote:I think it just applies to these new Blaster survival powers. Not just any toggle that might make you more survivable in general.Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I think the quote was 'any toggle to do with survivability will no longer be supressed' or words to that effect.
I wonder if that is across all AT's? And if it would include debuffs like Darkest Night.