Aett_Thorn

That's really not a good excuse for why Spin does almost 90% more damage than some other Brute PBAoEs. Yes, Spin doesn't have a secondary effect, but neither does Fire Sword Circle, and it still does more damage that that (even including all DoT tics). And it still recharges faster and costs less endurance. So it's getting both an Endurance discount, a Recharge discount, and some sort of bonus damage.

Other sets with only a single AoE get some sort of bonus on the AoE. Stone and SS get their radius increased, for instance.

Sets are balanced in totality, and it's not like Energy Melee is topping the lists already in either ST or AoE damage. It's pretty weak in AoE, and mediocre in ST damage (and those calcs tend to ignore the corpse-bombing factor). Making Whirling Hands do 25% more damage wouldn't break the set in the slightest.

Well, we weren't really told how to calculate RangeMod, though. It might be equivalent to dividing by distance, or it might be a flat value for melee powers, and a lower value for ranged powers. A ranged power used at melee range might not generate any more threat than if its used at full range.

DebuffMod is usually 2 if there is a debuff associated with the power.

The formula that we were told directly by Castle is:

Total Threat = Damage * DebuffMod * AT Mod * AI Mod * RangeMod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)


If you know of any place where the Devs have discussed further refinements of that formula, I'd love to see the discussion.

The problem is, we all know who he is. And we have too many characters in films that have a very similar story. Another one exploring just who Superman really is inside I just don't think will cut it. We need both sides of the coin on this movie, much like we got with the Avengers movie: enough character depth to engage you in the movie, and some actual freaking action.

Superman is different from many of the other superheroes out there in movies today exactly because of his strengths, yet we tend to see more fight sequences where they let loose than in the Superman movies. The commentary on Nodwick's site today really pointed this out to me, and even gave a great clip as evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoJ2Bd41zsw

Yes, Superman is completely overpowered. But just choosing not to show that, for whatever reason, really weakens the character. Give him an enemy to actually FIGHT in the movie. If this is a recurring show, sure you can explore his character for a few episodes, but eventually you need to give him somebody to beat up. But this is a movie, and 2 hours of soul searching isn't going to get people to go and see it. I liked that clip because it both shows who Superman is (a man in a world of cardboard, always afraid of using his strength for fear of hurting someone) and what he can do. THAT's what we need in a movie. Somebody that is both trying to protect the world from himself and from what enemies it has. But in the end, he needs to use his strength in a fight, not lifting an island into space.

Darth, this post right here is in direct contrast to your latest post in this thread. "Nerfed into oblivion" does not mean "okay" in any sense of the word. While you may not have said that we can thank her for it, there is really little reason to call her out specifically unless that is what you meant to say.


Edit -> And if you're saying that we're reading that into your post, then you are also reading into your own post that she would know the current state of the set, because you also didn't say that.

Are you sure that it's divided by distance? The Threat formula that I know also contains AI mod, AT mod and debuff Mod values

But you have to read the next few sentences as well:

"While a Tanker or Brute should normally be able to build Threat much faster than any other Archetype (especially with the help of the Taunt in all of their attacks), Castle's post was prompted by Issue 11 testing with a Tanker using Taunt that was unable to pull enemies away from a Willpower Scrapper using Rise to the Challenge. The combination of the Scrapper's enemy proximity, pulsing Taunt, and constant damage far outdid the ranged Taunt by the Tanker. "

Notice the "constant damage" part, meaning that the Scrapper must have been attacking (since Willpower lacks a damage aura, it couldn't be that).


Now, a Tanker using Taunt and no damage should be able to pull five away from the Scrapper easily with each Taunt use, but may lose that aggro over time as his Taunt wears off. But the Scrapper can hit up to ten with Spin, so the Tanker wouldn't grab that aggro with just the first application of Taunt.

That would make for some interesting character concepts.

"So, why are you wearing your baby in front of you while charging those gun-wielding maniacs?"

"Oh, well, you see...I'm not invulnerable, but my baby is. So I figured if they just shot at him instead of me, I'd be fine, and then I could wail on them with this pipe wrench."

But it's not just the Taunt aura that is doing it. Threat is multiplied by damage, so a weak Taunt+damage is better than a stronger Taunt, usually. Hence, why an attacking Scrapper can pull aggro away from a Tanker that is just taunting. The same can be done in today's game. The Devs haven't changed how taunt works, they just finally understand it a bit better. The know the formula, and have the spreadsheets that detail just how it works. Players can usually get fairly good results with Taunt testing now, but there are still a number of complications that we just don't have the numbers for, so no test will be perfect.

I would also say that at +0/x1 that Tankers aren't soloing that much slower than Brutes or Scrappers, either, even at SO levels. If we're looking at "effective" damage levels (meaning that excess damage doesn't matter), then leveling speeds are probably pretty close.

Nope. But if a slot is empty, it's empty. Your characters should all be there on the server they were on, just kinda greyed out. If the slot says its empty, then your character isn't there.

^This. No way to do it online. Need to do it in the game.

And in those cases, I'm betting that the Iron Eagles has some of every AT in there, right? How many more are Tankers than Scrappers and Brutes? Are those Controllers and Defenders that are in there a problem for Tankers? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, but if the issue is that Scrappers and Brutes don't die enough, then if the same is true of other ATs, then it should be a problem as well.



For those saying that as Heroes, we should be able to take down a minion in one or two swings, doesn't that mean that the LOWEST damage AT should be able to do that? So if the lowest damage AT should be able to take down a minion in potentially one hit, what then is the point of doing MORE damage than that? It would all be overkill at that point. So you'd be replacing a potential survivability insignificant difference with an offensive one.

The problem is that IF Tankers are currently imbalanced, then a disproportionate buff intra-Tank may not be the best solution. Raising their base damage mod would affect all Tanker sets evenly, but would still leave Johnny with hitting the cap on a number of his Tankers, which would likely still be a sore spot for him. But meanwhile, raising the caps only would leave a lot of other Tankers feeling like absolutely no change was made, since they're not routinely at the caps.

The bigger problem is that the players really don't know if there is an issue at all, and if there is, what that problem is. We just don't have the data to back up the claims of where the problem is. So we can throw out ideas all day long. Maybe some of them are good, maybe some of them are bad. But until the problem is known, the ideas are just shots in the dark.

Johnny and others say that Brutes and Scrappers don't die enough to justify the difference in Tanker offense compared to them. But we really have no idea how much more often the average Brute or Scrapper dies compared to a Tanker. If Brutes and Scrappers are dying 25% more than Tankers, would the people saying that their isn't a noticeable survivability difference take that to heart? Would it mean anything at all, in reality? I don't know, really.

But basically, if the Devs did look at Tankers compared to the other melee ATs, and saw all of the numbers, and found that they are performing exactly where they should be, would it stop people asking for a buff for them? No, probably not. Even if the Devs came to us and said that over the course of the game, Tankers were outputting 75% of the damage of Scrappers in real terms, and dying 25% less (which is exactly what should be happening), I doubt it would stop the complaints.

And how are those games doing, again?


Edit -> Also, how many professional boxers can take down 6-10 enemies at once? How many can you? You have to weigh combat as a whole, not just individual powers. How many boxing matches are over in a matter of seconds?

Please show me a Scrapper that has never died in this game. Please. I'll wait.

My Tankers don't need to pop reds continuously to move through the game at a good pace, and can often turn up the difficulty earlier than my Scrappers because of their defenses being higher, so I can leverage their AoEs better. As such, they only need to use the reds situationally, just like the Scrapper needs to use purples situationally.

And again, what kinds of characters are you comparing here? SOs? Basic IOs? Heavily-IOd builds? Because I bet that if you took a Brute and a Tanker on SOs, the Tanker would definitely survive much longer than your Brute would.

Understood. Just irks me when people tend to have a particular set that they love, use this type of justification for it, but then don't apply it to every other set in the game that should, by fantasy-world-physics-justifications, be even WORSE for the enemies.

"Oh, I just threw a skewer through your heart. You're really still shooting me and not falling over?"