I'm sick of the WoW clones.
By
Angry_Angel,
Posted on: 2012-11-25 09:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Because if you are going to copy something it makes more sense to copy something that 10+ million people subscribe to after 8 years and not something that has approx 50,000 subscribers after 8 years.
WoW has stayed above 9-10 million subs since mid 2008 and is still at 10 million as of reports on Nov 7, 2012.
CoH peaked at 200,000 in 2006 and has slowly lost subs since....
And no I am not a WoW fan/player - I tried it for like an hour or two in 2007 but didn't like it.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Question, Do you always have to be a complete killjoy? Every post i see from your end just has to be made to be against this game.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Because if you are going to copy something it makes more sense to copy something that 10+ million people subscribe to after 8 years and not something that has approx 50,000 subscribers after 8 years.
WoW has stayed above 10 million subs since mid 2008 and is still at 10 million as of reports on Nov 7, 2012. CoH peaked at 200,000 in 2006 and has slowly lost subs since.... And no I am not a WoW fan/player - I tried it for like an hour or two in 2007 but didn't like it. |
And i didn't ask about WoW, I asked about WoW clones, Guess what? They aren't doing so hot.
I'm no MMO History expert, but I think WoW introduced a business model that started to get a lot of attention because of the number of subscribers.
I tried WoW and didn't like it for a number of reasons, but there are 10 million(Guessed number) people who prefer it for some reason.
Before WoW, the game to beat was EverQuest. Who, I believe had some 200K regular members at the time which was considered astronomical. Having 50-80K for an MMO was considered successful back then. I even remember articles back then on MMORPG speaking to 20-50k as being the minimum subscriber target levels.
What I'm saying is that WoW set the bar higher, so now everyone shoots for the millions rather than the 10s of thousands...and our beloved game was one of the causalities of the new paradigm.
Just my opinions based on my very limited perspective of what I've seen that last 10ish years.
I am not against CoH. I presented facts. You stated you were sick of the WoW clones - I stated it makes more sense to make a clone of WoW than CoH based off of subscription numbers. Why clone something that had 200,000 people buying at it's peak...makes more sense to copy something that 12 million people bought.
If you make candles and know that 100 people buy red candles that smell like flowers and only 2 people buy brown candles that smell like cookies...it would make more sense to make red candles that have floral scents... business wise.
If you are going to copy something it makes more sense to appeal to the largest audience as possible.
While I enjoy the hyperbole that "every post" I make is against CoH...you are completely wrong. Almost all my posts I have stated emphatically how much I love CoH. People just don't like the fact that I do not hoist it up on some pedestal when it comes to the actual business sense of this game. It was never popular in the MMO industry as a whole. If you view my realistic look at sub numbers as attacking the game that's on you...I call it reality.
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Originally Posted by DarkBlaster_NA
Question, Do you always have to be a complete killjoy? Every post i see from your end just has to be made to be against this game.
And i didn't ask about WoW, I asked about WoW clones, Guess what? They aren't doing so hot. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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You'll note that nothing in the original post talked about setting.
Why haven't there been any games that copied WoW's setting while taking the aspects of CoH that made it fun to play?
I'd play a WoW-alike if it had the ability to make my character look exactly the way I want it to (and not buried under ten levels of gear), dozens of possible power combinations for the same class (and I don't mean the difference between one build spec and another, but the difference between Inv/ and SR/ Tankers or Storm/ and Empathy/ Defenders), or if it had Mez powers that let me entirely shut down bosses (like Controllers and Dominators), the ability to have a large crowd of powerful and controllable summons (like Masterminds), and/or the ability to take on huge groups of enemies solo, regardless of the window dressing.
Why haven't any games copied those aspects of CoH (which you can do while still setting it in a Generic Fantasy Realm Of Elves And Orcs), rather than copying WoW's "everyone must look alike", and "Mezzes are useless", and "all members of a classes play the same as all other members of that class", and "One hero can take on one regular enemy, if you want to fight a boss you need a full group" aspects?
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And the fact that in the 100's of other times that has been tried, it has not succeeded even once, isn't enough of a deterrent?|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Because if you are going to copy something it makes more sense to copy something that 10+ million people subscribe to after 8 years and not something that has approx 50,000 subscribers after 8 years.it.
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WoW-numbers might as well be Cold Fusion, or a mythological city of gold that kills every adventurer who goes looking for it.
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You state how you love CoH and continue to post blatantly anti-coh "Facts".If you love the game, Great. But sometimes you just have to shut the hell up.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
I am not against CoH. I presented facts. You stated you were sick of the WoW clones - I stated it makes more sense to make a clone of WoW than CoH based off of subscription numbers. Why clone something that had 200,000 people buying at it's peak...makes more sense to copy something that 12 million people bought.
If you make candles and know that 100 people buy red candles that smell like flowers and only 2 people buy brown candles that smell like cookies...it would make more sense to make red candles that have floral scents... business wise. If you are going to copy something it makes more sense to appeal to the largest audience as possible. While I enjoy the hyperbole that "every post" I make is against CoH...you are completely wrong. Almost all my posts I have stated emphatically how much I love CoH. People just don't like the fact that I do not hoist it up on some pedestal when it comes to the actual business sense of this game. It was never popular in the MMO industry as a whole. If you view my realistic look at sub numbers as attacking the game that's on you...I call it reality. |
And what you fail to touch upon in your post is, WoW -does- have many, many subscribers, But, Do the many, many WoW clones have that much? Nope!
To further invalidate your arguement, If i'm making a WoW clone, I'm not going to look at WoW's subs, I'm going to look at how well the other WoW clones did.
Here's a hint stop playing RPGs. Lots of games out there that are not even close to WOW. Go buy a console or something.
and besides all the WOW knock offs are cheap free to play games anyway stop being cheap like the old saying goes "you get what you pay for."
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
Go buy a console or something.
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*Hiss*! D:
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~♥~
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Originally Posted by darkblaster_na
*hiss*! D:
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Stating CoH was never a financial behemoth is not anti-CoH it is reality.
No WoW clone has ever reached their numbers, but a lot of them have done well...better than CoH. This is not me dissing CoH...it is just reality. I have tried a lot of WoW clones and barely stayed there a week...CoH on the other hand I have played for 7+ years straight (Except a 2 month period when Issue 7 came out due to the massive bugs etc).
I don't need to shut the hell up - what YOU need to do is put your big boy pants on and realize CoH was never a HUGE MMO. It never saw the numbers that a lot of WoW clones did/do. It is a niche market...one that should have performed better due to the popularity of Super Heroes in tv/movies right now, but didn't.
Just because I can look at the financial success/pitfalls of CoH does not mean I have not supported this game since day one. I am not an MMO ... I am a CoHer, but not a blind one who is afraid to look at the reality of the past/future.
You are the one who asked the question - if you didn't want an honest answer then maybe you shouldn't have asked.
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Originally Posted by DarkBlaster_NA
You state how you love CoH and continue to post blatantly anti-coh "Facts".If you love the game, Great. But sometimes you just have to shut the hell up.
And what you fail to touch upon in your post is, WoW -does- have many, many subscribers, But, Do the many, many WoW clones have that much? Nope! To further invalidate your arguement, If i'm making a WoW clone, I'm not going to look at WoW's subs, I'm going to look at how well the other WoW clones did. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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...but you know what? The first post was also a killjoy, to be perfectly honest.
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Originally Posted by DarkBlaster_NA
Question, Do you always have to be a complete killjoy?
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Okay, Riddle-me-this. When did i ever state CoH was a financial behemoth, and when did i ever state it was a huge MMO to rival WoW?|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Stating CoH was never a financial behemoth is not anti-CoH it is reality.
No WoW clone has ever reached their numbers, but a lot of them have done well...better than CoH. This is not me dissing CoH...it is just reality. I have tried a lot of WoW clones and barely stayed there a week...CoH on the other hand I have played for 7+ years straight (Except a 2 month period when Issue 7 came out due to the massive bugs etc). I don't need to shut the hell up - what YOU need to do is put your big boy pants on and realize CoH was never a HUGE MMO. It never saw the numbers that a lot of WoW clones did/do. It is a niche market...one that should have performed better due to the popularity of Super Heroes in tv/movies right now, but didn't. Just because I can look at the financial success/pitfalls of CoH does not mean I have not supported this game since day one. I am not an MMO ... I am a CoHer, but not a blind one who is afraid to look at the reality of the past/future. You are the one who asked the question - if you didn't want an honest answer then maybe you shouldn't have asked. |
The Title is "I'm sick of the WoW clones." Not "Every game should not copy WoW, But instead should copy CoH"
And the OP merely asks questions about why MMOs can't integrate similar features.
The trouble is, when it comes to being a consumer, being different from the target demographic, means you're lucky if you're ever offered anything you like.
The moral of the story: do what the media orders you to.
I'm fortunate in that I've ever tried out less than two hours of WoW two years ago and can't recall a single second. Even if every MMO out now was a WoW clone in every aspect, I'd have no clue.
Playing a new MMO now..*coughs* TSW. If someone says, "But, Ara, that game IS a WoW clone!" then I'd have to rush out and get WoW because TSW is so damn good!
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TSW is the most innovative MMO I've heard of in quite a while.|
Originally Posted by Angry_Angel
I'm fortunate in that I've ever tried out less than two hours of WoW two years ago and can't recall a single second. Even if every MMO out now was a WoW clone in every aspect, I'd have no clue.
Playing a new MMO now..*coughs* TSW. If someone says, "But, Ara, that game IS a WoW clone!" then I'd have to rush out and get WoW because TSW is so damn good! |
From what I've heard, it's struggling too. Big shock.
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Like I said: You copy what is successful and has a greater chance of selling.| Why can't most games be like City of Heroes? If they were to copy a game, I'd rather it be CoH than WoW. |
You never stated it was a financial behemoth...I stated it never was and it makes no sense in a business world to copy a game that produced moderate financial return, but rather one with huge financial returns.
You never stated it was a huge MMO - I stated it wasn't one....which is why it does not make sense to copy it.
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Originally Posted by DarkBlaster_NA
Okay, Riddle-me-this. When did i ever state CoH was a financial behemoth, and when did i ever state it was a huge MMO to rival WoW?
The Title is "I'm sick of the WoW clones." Not "Every game should not copy WoW, But instead should copy CoH" And the OP merely asks questions about why MMOs can't integrate similar features. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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I haven't tried TSW, but I have read a lot about it and it doesn't appeal to me. I may try it with a friend after the new year starts, but have pretty much given up on finding a game which will replace CoH for me.
I have tried DCUO, CO, SW:TOR, and GW2 recently, but did not like any of them.
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
TSW is the most innovative MMO I've heard of in quite a while.
From what I've heard, it's struggling too. Big shock. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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So, You brought two completely things not even relevant to an argument about something else entirely, Nice.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Like I said: You copy what is successful and has a greater chance of selling.
You never stated it was a financial behemoth...I stated it never was and it makes no sense in a business world to copy a game that produced moderate financial return, but rather one with huge financial returns. You never stated it was a huge MMO - I stated it wasn't one....which is why it does not make sense to copy it. |
We can continue this in PMs if you wish, Otherwise i'm done.
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How long before beta testing opens? rough ballpark estimate.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
What I have in mind for Plan Z isn't a WoW clone
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WoW clones do get finished and dont end up as vapourware after 6 months? Different from that point of view i suppose
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PvP. PvP is cool and since PvP is why we can't have nice things...|
Originally Posted by DarkBlaster_NA
Why can't any game be innovative and focus less on balance and more on FUN?
Why can't we create truly unique characters with an expansive character creator? Why can't we have unique classes, like the Warshade or the Mastermind? |
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Why can't we solo most things if we are smart? Why can't we be able to adjust our own difficulty? Why can't we have speed boosts early on to make leveling much less of a pain in the ***? |
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| Why can't we have a gear system that doesn't require a grind and takes about 5 minutes to buy enchancements for certain powers and become a power house? |
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TSW is nothing short of brilliant. Best storytelling in an MMO ever, class-less* character progression, completely open advancement path w/o character levels (you level skills, and it's a rather rapid curve), good (if not great) combat system, and more. It's graphically breathtaking. They even just introduced a reticule targeting option (although you can stick with tab targeting if you want to, and I suspect most will). I followed the game's development for a long time, and have unquestionably found my CoH replacement.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
TSW is the most innovative MMO I've heard of in quite a while.
From what I've heard, it's struggling too. Big shock. |
It's not perfect. They're having a hard time with PvP faction balance (PvP causing balance problems in an MMO? Gee, really?), and like any new game it has its share of bugs. A lot of the early content arcs have annoying-as-hell solo-only instances in them, something the devs have admitted was a mistake and not used in more recent content releases. The combat animations are typical MMO herky-jerky rubbish.
Funcom is indeed having its problems financially. SW is doing reasonably well for what was always going to be a niche game, but I do worry about the company's health. Innovation in this market space is always a huge gamble.
* It should be pointed out, however, that despite the class-less character progression, TSW is still much more of a "holy trinity" game than CoH, especially in the most challenging situations. Not because it's build into the game directly, but because the tanker/healer/dps combination just tends to work versus dangerous enemies. The upside is that no character is locked into a role forever. Once you're a decent way into a character's development process, they have enough of a range of abilities and skills that they can put together a "deck" tailored to any mission and team.
"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
Why can't any game be innovative and focus less on balance and more on FUN?
Why can't we create truly unique characters with an expansive character creator?
Why can't we solo most things if we are smart?
Why can't we have a gear system that doesn't require a grind and takes about 5 minutes to buy enchancements for certain powers and become a power house?
Why can't we have unique classes, like the Warshade or the Mastermind?
Why can't we be able to adjust our own difficulty?
Why can't we have speed boosts early on to make leveling much less of a pain in the ***?
Guess what i'm trying to say is
Why can't most games be like City of Heroes? If they were to copy a game, I'd rather it be CoH than WoW.