Dear NCsoft Executives... YOU'RE FIRED!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-10-03 03:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There might have been dubious motives for the supposed "open letter" by Garriot but it wasn't so much a forgery since Garriot approved it even if he didn't write it.|
Originally Posted by Rubberlad
As Mercedes Lackey pointed out elsewhere, NCsoft lost all credibility the minute they forged documentation.
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Not really trying to absolve NCSoft but Mercedes Lackey's information is slightly off when it comes to the alleged forgery portion.
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| NCsoft had subsequently issued what was portrayed to the public as an "open letter" written by Garriott to his fans on the Internet, a letter that claimed Garriott was leaving to pursue "new interests" following his space flight, the suit said. The filing stated that Garriott approved the letter, but in hindsight, the plaintiff suspects that NCsoft was setting up a means to show that Garriott's departure was voluntary. |
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Originally Posted by Brillig
There you go again.
You add six "multi-millions" together and somehow magically get a billion? (We won't mention your retreat from billions to billion.) Then you pile on the assumption that CoH was profitable. You keep pointing at a five year old news article while failing to understand the distinction between won and dollars. The 'scandalous' amount that Dr. Yoon was being paid for being on the board? 100 million Won? That's $100,000. Not millions, and quite frankly, picayune compared to what Directors in the US make. NCSoft may have lost credibility. You and Mercedes Lackey aren't doing so well either. I especially like the part where she compares NCSoft to murderers. It's. A. Game. |
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Ok, to be fair, pretty much ALL MMO's will cost a few million to develop, however, lets get this a bit more accurate shall we?
NCSoft *DID NOT* develop Point Blank (developed by Zepetto) *NOR* Dragonica (Barunson Interactive), they licensed them. In fact, both of those titles have *multiple* publishers, some even in the same same regions as NCsoft operates in. So that is 2 of the titles that you are citing out of the window. Dragonica is *still* active right now Wiki page, you need to go down to Development, and you can see it there. Hell, it is still active in the US and EU markets.
But if you are saying that someone is lacking credibility, then that *doesn't* mean that everything you say against them is true. That is what I am trying to correct here. Some little fact checking along the line is always handy. Side note: How profitable was City of Heroes by the way? I await your answer and how you got to that figure as well. |
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Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
There might have been dubious motives for the supposed "open letter" by Garriot but it wasn't so much a forgery since Garriot approved it even if he didn't write it.
Not really trying to absolve NCSoft but Mercedes Lackey's information is slightly off when it comes to the alleged forgery portion. |
So what do you each think is the best course of action to take now?
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Basically. |
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
Shareholders generally only care about one thing... profit and stocks sea saw up and down all the time. The way they handled the closing of Paragon Studios and ending the game may not effect them in the long run, only time will tell. While I personally will never knowingly have anything thing to do with any game or company involved with NCSoft ever again, there are potential gamers out there that #1 don't know NCSoft's history or #2 Don't care about NCSoft's history. People seem to have the memory of a fruit fly and are very forgiving when it comes to parting with their hard earned cash in exchange for entertainment.
I have the feeling that the blow back from this CoX fiasco will end up being more like a shin kick to NCSoft instead of the kick to its nuts (followed by a double back hand slap) like I'd like it to be... |
It seems that a lot of people knew their game killing history here and the Garrott fiasco yet played this game for years regardless even after NCSoft took over as if NCSoft had the most stellar record in the history of the gaming industry.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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I think the decision of this COX/Paragon closing thing goes deeper than what it appears on the surface. For all we know the investors of NCSoft were protesting to close Paragon studios a long time ago and or gave them an ultimatum of close it or we'll take our cash somewhere else.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
That's quite possible. Not sure how long it's been in the works though. Seems odd they'd just shoot it dead and close a successful game to boot.
All I see is a 180 policy shift on their part. A smoking gun lies at Nexon's feet not NCSoft if you ask me. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
There isn't anyone from Nexon employee sitting on their BoD or anyone in common and there hasn't been any changes to the high end management of NCSoft since Nexon bought in.
The aren't merged. Nexon doesn't control NCSoft. Take off the tin foil hats.
NCSoft had all of one negative quarter, their first one in over 8 years of records, and not all that negative, only $6 million. The stock first came off it's high when the quarterly reports first showed that Aion isn't growing anymore. Now combine that with consolidation in the industry in Korea, NCSoft acquiring multiple companies over the last year in the mobile and casual game space means there's going to be some "digestion issues" which always has a negative impact in financial statements.
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I play games that I enjoy, it just so happens that City of Heroes was my 1st mmo, and one that I did enjoy to pick up and play every now and then.|
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
Basically.
It seems that a lot of people knew their game killing history here and the Garrott fiasco yet played this game for years regardless even after NCSoft took over as if NCSoft had the most stellar record in the history of the gaming industry. |
Yes, I knew from previous experience that NCsoft could kill a title, but i went into MMO playing from the very outset that nothing lasts forever.
I just kept my expectations "low" as to how long a title would last, just to prevent myself from becoming too attached to a game (I have loved and lost over the years, including the death of an ex fiancee). So since then, I treated every day as something semi special.
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Forgery is a colloquial term: the letter was deliberately mischaracterized as being written by Garriott when it was not. Although Garriott signed off on it as a press release, he contended it misrepresented the reason for his leaving as a deliberate ploy to defraud him of his stock options. As Garriott has prevailed in court and on appeal, its reasonable to state that as a matter of law, that letter is in fact a fraud.|
Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
There might have been dubious motives for the supposed "open letter" by Garriot but it wasn't so much a forgery since Garriot approved it even if he didn't write it.
Not really trying to absolve NCSoft but Mercedes Lackey's information is slightly off when it comes to the alleged forgery portion. |
I did find it interesting when rereading the order that on appeal NCSoft argued that Richard Garriott's resignation should be considered voluntary because demanding his resignation or face termination is considered a voluntary resignation under Korean law as long as intimidation or coercion is used. I find it interested because a) its interesting to me that "resign or be fired" isn't considered coercion by NCSoft, and b) the appellate court found that Korean law doesn't even say that.
Actually, I also find it interesting that the arguments put forth by the NCSoft legal team sound a lot like arguments I hear all the time on the internet, and they impressed the Fifth Circuit about as much as they impressed me.
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I can actually confirm this one 100%, for I have indeed found the magic website.|
Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
There might have been dubious motives for the supposed "open letter" by Garriot but it wasn't so much a forgery since Garriot approved it even if he didn't write it.
Not really trying to absolve NCSoft but Mercedes Lackey's information is slightly off when it comes to the alleged forgery portion. |
It is actually from the Garriott Vs NCsoft court case.
Taken from Findlaw.com
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| Later that day, NCsoft sent Garriott a press release announcing his departure to Tabula Rasa fans. Garriott reviewed and signed the announcement, which stated that I am leaving NCsoft to pursue [other] interests. NCsoft subsequently prepared a resignation letter for Garriott's signature addressed from him to the company, but Garriott did not sign the letter. |
Soooo......
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Cool!
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
I play games that I enjoy, it just so happens that City of Heroes was my 1st mmo, and one that I did enjoy to pick up and play every now and then.
Yes, I knew from previous experience that NCsoft could kill a title, but i went into MMO playing from the very outset that nothing lasts forever. I just kept my expectations "low" as to how long a title would last, just to prevent myself from becoming too attached to a game (I have loved and lost over the years, including the death of an ex fiancee). So since then, I treated every day as something semi special. |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Most interesting indeed. So technically he approved and signed a statement saying he would no longer be working for NCSoft, but he did not sign a statement saying he had resigned.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
So whilst NCsoft *did* write the letter, Garriott himself approved and signed it. He didn't however sign his resignation letter to NCsoft (which they had drafted for him)
Soooo...... |
If he had signed such a letter of course, the Texas court case might have gone somewhat differently. Unless he could've proved his arm was being twisted as he signed. Except coercion wasn't deemed a legally mandatory requirement for dispute under Korean law, as opposed to NCSoft's claim that it was.
Or something.
When it comes to law, you could probably write my knowledge on the back of a postage stamp, but even with that teeny degree of knowledge I can see that employment law is as complicated as copyright law, something I have always taken to be so complicated that it was obviously created by thinktank-brained space aliens and not humans at all.
*nods*
So, back to the OP's request...I'm afraid we can't fire the execs of NCSoft today anyway - Korean companies like to have their firings done on a Friday evening, you see. Not that they ARE firings of course, they're merely resignations by signature justifiable proxy.
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However, the one that he signed and approved was the one that was shown to the player base. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Forgery is a colloquial term: the letter was deliberately mischaracterized as being written by Garriott when it was not. Although Garriott signed off on it as a press release, he contended it misrepresented the reason for his leaving as a deliberate ploy to defraud him of his stock options. As Garriott has prevailed in court and on appeal, its reasonable to state that as a matter of law, that letter is in fact a fraud.
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He never did sign the *internal* resignation letter which was the basis for the court case and so was instrumental into when he was able to excise his stock options, which was actually the whole reason for the court case in the 1st place.
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Nexon owns the largest chunk of NCSoft shares. That gives them the largest voting block for decisions made in the boardroom. They can swing votes in their favor such as who the chairman is or is not.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
There isn't anyone from Nexon employee sitting on their BoD or anyone in common and there hasn't been any changes to the high end management of NCSoft since Nexon bought in.
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We don't know what they've said or done internally as their controlling interest only developed about 3 months ago. Nor do we know what their meeting schedule is like.
What we do know is 2 months after they became the loudest voice at the table, Paragon was closed. A 180 swing from what NCSoft was doing before the announcement.
People want to say that this was just one bad quarter and not some panic button. Okay, then why pull the trigger on paragon and 'refocus' your corporation's direction if that's true?
I think there's a connection. I think Nexon could very well have said to NCSoft 'Hey you're losing money and you need to do something. Trim the fat or we'll find a CEO who will.'
Do you think Nexon is happy that they've lost 70 million in NCSoft stock value since they bought their shares? If it was you, and you had the largest share percentage, would you just sit there and tell yourself it's just one bad quarter?
Please buff Ice Control.
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To tell you the truth? |
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Nexon owns the largest chunk of NCSoft shares. That gives them the largest voting block for decisions made in the boardroom. They can swing votes in their favor such as who the chairman is or is not.
We don't know what they've said or done internally as their controlling interest only developed about 3 months ago. Nor do we know what their meeting schedule is like. What we do know is 2 months after they became the loudest voice at the table, Paragon was closed. A 180 swing from what NCSoft was doing before the announcement. People want to say that this was just one bad quarter and not some panic button. Okay, then why pull the trigger on paragon and 'refocus' your corporation's direction if that's true? I think there's a connection. I think Nexon could very well have said to NCSoft 'Hey you're losing money and you need to do something. Trim the fat or we'll find a CEO who will.' Do you think Nexon is happy that they've lost 70 million in NCSoft stock value since they bought their shares? If it was you, and you had the largest share percentage, would you just sit there and tell yourself it's just one bad quarter? |
No, I'd be like fix it immediately or else.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Well publicly it's less shameful to "voluntarily" resign than be fired. While in reality everyone knows that one means the other, I guess it's considered a way to retain your family honor.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I did find it interesting when rereading the order that on appeal NCSoft argued that Richard Garriott's resignation should be considered voluntary because demanding his resignation or face termination is considered a voluntary resignation under Korean law as long as intimidation or coercion is used. I find it interested because a) its interesting to me that "resign or be fired" isn't considered coercion by NCSoft, and b) the appellate court found that Korean law doesn't even say that.
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Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
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You don't understand how Boards of Directors work now do you? Stock holders elect the BoD and then the BoD acts as the representatives of all the stock holders. Even a large stockholder can't simply demand the BoD to do their biding without controlling the majority of shares or getting members on the board.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Nexon owns the largest chunk of NCSoft shares. That gives them the largest voting block for decisions made in the boardroom. They can swing votes in their favor such as who the chairman is or is not.
We don't know what they've said or done internally as their controlling interest only developed about 3 months ago. Nor do we know what their meeting schedule is like. What we do know is 2 months after they became the loudest voice at the table, Paragon was closed. A 180 swing from what NCSoft was doing before the announcement. People want to say that this was just one bad quarter and not some panic button. Okay, then why pull the trigger on paragon and 'refocus' your corporation's direction if that's true? I think there's a connection. I think Nexon could very well have said to NCSoft 'Hey you're losing money and you need to do something. Trim the fat or we'll find a CEO who will.' Do you think Nexon is happy that they've lost 70 million in NCSoft stock value since they bought their shares? If it was you, and you had the largest share percentage, would you just sit there and tell yourself it's just one bad quarter? |
Even back at the end of 2009, there's been mumbling about NCSoft pulling out of the western markets when NCSoft Europe was gutted and the NA were restructured. However they aren't going to terminate any projects until they get their money back. NCSoft owns ArenaNet since 2002 and NCSoft announced Carbine Studios in 2007. Now GW2 is as stylistically pretty as any NCSoft modern Asian title it may do alright in NCSoft's bread and butter markets. WildStar looks a lot like a number of Asian MMOs as well. But CoH simply didn't work there. Pretty sure they felt CoH's well was drying up so they packed it in and walked away.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
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Yes, you can't make a case for fraud if the subject knowingly approved it. So saying that open letter was a forgery is a tad misleading.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
However, the one that he signed and approved was the one that was shown to the player base.
He never did sign the *internal* resignation letter which was the basis for the court case and so was instrumental into when he was able to excise his stock options, which was actually the whole reason for the court case in the 1st place. |
Not saying there were no ulterior motives for it or "dubious" as i mentioned before, but that was not what the case that he won was about.
*Sorry...responding late but was preoccupied with things. Oh and thanks for that link...added to my collection.
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Oh, don't worry about the link, it was actually *your* link to Gamasutra that put me onto the correct path for finding the court documents (rather surprisingly, my original searches were coming up fruitless!), but hey ho, at least we got that little problem resolved.
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Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
Yes, you can't make a case for fraud if the subject knowingly approved it. So saying that open letter was a forgery is a tad misleading.
Not saying there were no ulterior motives for it or "dubious" as i mentioned before, but that was not what the case that he won was about. *Sorry...responding late but was preoccupied with things. Oh and thanks for that link...added to my collection. |
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Technically, the case was made that the letter was used to perpetrate a fraud. Successfully.
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Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
Yes, you can't make a case for fraud if the subject knowingly approved it. So saying that open letter was a forgery is a tad misleading.
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Except the open letter was not put forward as the fraud and he didn't win for that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Technically, the case was made that the letter was used to perpetrate a fraud. Successfully.
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I'm not sure if that's addressing what I said or not, so I'll repeat: the letter was a component of an attempt to defraud. A letter can't be "a fraud" legally because a fraud is an action, not a thing.|
Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
Except the open letter was not put forward as the fraud and he didn't win for that.
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According to the court documents I read at the time, Garriott's lawyers argued that the open letter was used by NCSoft as evidence his departure was voluntary and the content was crafted in a way that would allow them to later imply that, in defiance of the fact that his departure was not voluntary. Garriott prevailed at trial in his overall assertion that his departure was not voluntary and that NCSoft attempted to defraud him, and the fact that NCSoft used the letter to suggest it was voluntary was not challenged. Its therefore a matter of law that the letter was used in an attempt to defraud Garriott.
If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be happy to read it.
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I didn't say it wasn't used in the case or whether it addresses what you want but when you first replied to me, "I" was addressing the point that the open letter was portrayed by some as a forgery and it's not more a forgery as a politician's speech written by a speech writer.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm not sure if that's addressing what I said or not, so I'll repeat: the letter was a component of an attempt to defraud. A letter can't be "a fraud" legally because a fraud is an action, not a thing.
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If you can show me in that court case where they said that open letter was forged, please point that to me.
I cannot find any reference to the letter being used as evidence of him voluntarily leaving. Granted, I do not have access to the dockets (rather surprisingly, I have no access to the Texas Western District CM/ECF system), but if you can provide a link relating to it, I would be massively appreciative of it.
(Btw, are you referring to the original court case or the appeal court case? Kinda important so i know which years to be looking for!)
Well, it's about a billion lost on dead end development projects, lawsuits and City of Heroes which was still turning a profit. And it all happened in 5 years under Mr. Kim's watch while he and his wife, Dr. Yoon pocketed millions on the side. Again, that is a statement made in the Korean Times article I linked (towards the bottom).
NCSoft *DID NOT* develop Point Blank (developed by Zepetto) *NOR* Dragonica (Barunson Interactive), they licensed them. In fact, both of those titles have *multiple* publishers, some even in the same same regions as NCsoft operates in. So that is 2 of the titles that you are citing out of the window. Dragonica is *still* active right now Wiki page, you need to go down to Development, and you can see it there. Hell, it is still active in the US and EU markets.
Some little fact checking along the line is always handy.
Side note: How profitable was City of Heroes by the way? I await your answer and how you got to that figure as well.