Am I the only one not upset?
I liked what SOE did with Everquest II when it went F2P. It created a new game, Everquest II Extended, with its own server, and left the old subscription based game with its servers as before. That meant that there was no shortage of low level characters for F2P players and no high level ones, no existing guilds, no veteran rewards, ... It was a clean slate, and I think this allowed the free game to grow naturally.
It also meant that as a returning player I had to start from scratch. That was good. I needed to create new characters, but that was okay, because everyone else did too. I was constrained by the new F2P rules, but I didn't have anything crippled because of these rules. I could just use what I was given, although I quickly decided that it would be worth paying a little to improve what I had.
When the original EQ2 was made F2P about 2 years later, I got access to my old characters, with some constraints I was expecting (and some things were better than I expected, I could play old characters even if their class and race weren't the ones available for free), but I was already more attached to the new characters than the old ones.
With CoH the main characters on my main account were crippled (due to disabled IOs) and the main characters on my secondary account were inaccessible due to not having Mastermind and Controller unlocked (I had two main characters there, a Mastermind and a Controller), which I have to say was off-putting. I started a new character and played a little, but I think that if everyone had to do that to play using the F2P rules it would have felt better.
What else have you got? You're the one that stated you had the mind blowing answer. Spit it out.
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But as far as I can tell they had basically zero budget to run any kind of ad campaign and I'm not sure anybody ever figured out what (demographic) opportunities we had for growth. Our biggest market was the thirty-and-up crowd, and that's a broad wall to paint. I don't think neglect killed the game, and I certainly don't believe that people like Zwillinger or Black Pebble lacked enthusiasm for it.
As UberGuy has also said, there's nothing there that hasn't been discussed already, either. So two counts -- neither undiscussed nor real. I'll leave 'obvious' uncontested.
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I'm with you OP!
I have no doubt that the OP responded poorly to being attacked for his post. That, too, would be normal behavior. When does it stop? By not starting **** in the first place. By thinking about the consequences of our words and actions before throwing them out there. I've done so with every post in this thread and will continue on that path until I get my point across or get bored trying.
I was cocky long before this game came around. Truth NEVER hurts me. I thrive on it. I thank people when they prove me wrong. I learn from such interactions. You have failed at every turn on that front so far. You've given us no reason to listen to you. You've said nothing worthwhile yet. As soon as you do, I'll listen. |
-Female Player-
Correct. I don't have to but I enjoy doing it from time to time.
You seem to be under some delusion that A: I think I'm always right, I'm not. I'm often wrong but when I suspect that I'm wrong I seek out information to resolve the issue; B: I've never been dogpiled on by others in this community. I have and often, I just don't cry about and take my lumps as they come; and C: that this is in different than any other game forum anywhere. It's not on THIS topic. One way this forum IS different is that I have never seen on any other forum the rapid help that one can receive when they are seeking it on any number of topics. At least half of my 30000 posts were added to this forum in my first few years hanging out here and doing my damnedest to help out folks in the tech forum so that they could go on to loving the game instead of fighting bothersome tech issues. I just started a thread in the scrapper forum about using degenerative or reactive and received a lot of useful information without any BS at all. I won't be involved in the development of a new CoH. If a certain segment of this forum's population actually manages to create a new CoH on their own, it is highly unlikely that I'll be involved with it at all because I've already been shown some of their design philosophies and they are VERY much unpleasant for a soloist like myself. Get this through your head: There is a difference between being closed off to all ideas and being closed of to ideas that are obviously useless on their face. No, it being BS makes it BS. The statement, "The Sun revolves around the Earth" is BS. I don't have to pretend that it has worth or any basis in reality. I get to happily discount it as BS and continue on under the safe assumption that the person stating it will never have anything useful for me to bother with. Other ideas are good when they're well thought out and worthwhile. Listening to the players is a good thing. Listening to garbage is a waste of time. Defending people that intentionally start crap for no other reason but to start crap and insult people is a waste of time. All opinions are NOT equal and never will be. The opinion that it's ok to piss on and mock those saddened by the loss of something is a baseless and idiotic opinion and THAT is what this thread is actually about. It's not about the cliquishness of the forums. Cliques exists everywhere and this place is no exception. But to blame the closure of this game on the forums? That's just stupid. |
I learned that you cant force someone to see but in the end if they choose to be blind then let them be blind and think any opinion that is not theirs is idiotic and thier opinion is always the one that is better than everyone else. It's obvious that you think that by the above statements you made.
-Female Player-
He's basically saying that market neglect on the part of Paragon Studios killed the game, Bill. I think we can see some evidence that they saw a weakness there; through June/July/August they were definitely trying some new strategies to drive up player interest.
But as far as I can tell they had basically zero budget to run any kind of ad campaign and I'm not sure anybody ever figured out what (demographic) opportunities we had for growth. Our biggest market was the thirty-and-up crowd, and that's a broad wall to paint. I don't think neglect killed the game, and I certainly don't believe that people like Zwillinger or Black Pebble lacked enthusiasm for it. As UberGuy has also said, there's nothing there that hasn't been discussed already, either. So two counts -- neither undiscussed nor real. I'll leave 'obvious' uncontested. |
It's is very apparent that is you is set in your way of thinking and no one can change that and I'm [not] going to [try].
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Nawww.
CO is good too. Oh no, not COX and their closed mindness that cant see nor understand anything outside their view.
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I dont think you get that even in this game, people have different experiences and thus difference takes on the situation. People who had positive experiences and friends and the likes probably would be more enthuse of making this game make it past nov 30th. Unfortunately, there are some people's experience that was opposite and more than likely they would be less enthused.
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I don't know or care why he bothered to point that out to a group of dedicated players; I pretty much have to agree with other posters in the thread that it's deliberate provocation (and I'm a little confused as to why they rose to the bait). I'm a little more concerned with your own reaction to all this.
After all,
One thing I do beleive in which many in this forum do not seem to believe in, is freedom of speech.
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Well... yeah. This is a community about City of Heroes. Of course the majority opinion is going to disagree. It'd be the same as posting on an LGBT forum that you were glad Prop 8 passed. Whether or not you really were, that's not the place for it unless you're looking to start a fight.
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Balance passes that wrecked characters, features that had promised improvements that were NEVER, NEVER going to arrive, failure to actively or at least meaningfully respond to the declining game population... That the direction the devs were going was improving the game ? (Combo systems, ever increasing power creep, minimal effort to advance characters but heavily time gated) I really saw those as appealing to a particular subset of the existing audience.
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Not even going to bother with this nonsense of a reply. It's is very apparent that is you is set in your way of thinking and no one can change that and I'm going to.
I learned that you cant force someone to see but in the end if they choose to be blind then let them be blind and think any opinion that is not theirs is idiotic and thier opinion is always the one that is better than everyone else. It's obvious that you think that by the above statements you made. |
And no I dont think my opinions are better, I think my opinions are merely opinions. Where was the convo going? Nowhere. It's not an exhange of ideas. A certain part doesnt seem to want that. They see it their way is their way and that is the only way. So is this a no win situation? If I continue that conversation, it might be a waste of time. But if I end it, then it means I think my opinions are better?
Well you are entitled to your opinion too, but I'm ending that conversation with that person either way.
-Female Player-
Mostly a wargamer. TBH, I always thought what passed for balance here, escaped from the twilight zone.
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MMOs live and die on keeping people playing on a day-to-day basis; there's much less of the 'collectability' aspect. The genius of CoH was the powerset system (even though it was an accident and not what they were going for at all), since it made the game extremely replayable. The things that really helped the game synergized well with this (new ATs with Villains, new powersets here and there and a glut of them recently, and of course new content to level characters with) and the things that hurt it weakened this. (AE was a weird case, because on paper it should've been great for replayability, but it was too much when it launched. DFB and DiB really hit a much sweeter spot for that, but AE was hurt really badly by its rough launch.)
Balance changes push people into replaying or re-evaluating their characters/options. Every MMO uses them this way. They all have those things you were complaining about.
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Bill? Set in his ways?
Nawww. You know, I had to look over this thread because that's definitely not the attitude you came in with. And I found, Yeah, I don't think that's the case. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...0&postcount=17 The OP didn't appear to have much invested in the game in any way at all; his posts on the subject started with, 'Well, I guess I'll miss it,' and ended up with, 'Eh, nevermind, it was old and kind of crappy anyway.' I don't know or care why he bothered to point that out to a group of dedicated players; I pretty much have to agree with other posters in the thread that it's deliberate provocation (and I'm a little confused as to why they rose to the bait). I'm a little more concerned with your own reaction to all this. After all, Sure. Plenty of people have lectured you on the legalities of this, but I'm more interested in the practicality: Freedom of speech means everyone else has the freedom to yell back. I think what you're looking for is respect of others' opinions, but the OP didn't show anyone that to start with. Why are you defending his right to be disrespectful, but not Tony or Bill's? Because more people disagree with him than with Tony or Bill? Well... yeah. This is a community about City of Heroes. Of course the majority opinion is going to disagree. It'd be the same as posting on an LGBT forum that you were glad Prop 8 passed. Whether or not you really were, that's not the place for it unless you're looking to start a fight. |
And even that is cool too, but seems like many was endorsing TonyV's trolling the OP while no one defended the right for the OP to feel the way he felt.
After reading it over and over, I can how this can irk a few of the "hopefuls", yet not sure how they would feel disrespected anymore than posts of TonyV that basically disrepects the people who isnt as passionate as him about saving this game. And some people probably dont see how he was disrepectful in some of his posts to people that may not be as enthused as him. And that is what I'm getting at. Anything can be disrespectful that is why in the first post I stated it seemed like the OP is just stating how he feel. That wasnt good enough for TonyV and his ilk that was out for nothing less than blood and wanting to hang this fellow. I didnt think the OP was anymore disrespectful than what TonyV has posted about people that are less enthused than him about this game. And yet, not many said anything to TonyV about being just that, disrespectful. Yet again, no one else said anything about the disrespect of TonyV here, yet quickly got behind him to get on the case of the OP.
As the game ends it seems to be a lot of zealots. TonyV kinds of reminds of one of those soft spoken, well spoken, charismatic old school preachers that can get a crowd going and turns hell fire and brimstone at anything that is not according to his view of the bible. And wish to burn all heretics at the stake, even though the past Sunday was preaching about how one should not kill.
But this is my opinion and nothing more on the situation that happened in this thread.
Then again who knows who exactly was the intentions of the OP. It could be either way. Anything that anyone says can be disrespect to someone. Even somethign as simple as saying this game is the greatest game in the world, or America is the best country, or NCSoft is stupid and etc.
So many I shouldnt have jump on TonyV case for being disrespectful in my eyes to the OP no more than he should of jumped on the OP for being disrespectful in his eyes. Sounds like I owe TonyV an apology.
I think someone is probably going to shoot me but I wished they had strictly private channels here. Where outside actual questions about the game and stuff, everythig else should have been delegated to private rooms. It would cut down on trolling and or percieved trolling. That way someone can create a channel might be using wrong term, and state a topic and only people that is friends of that person, and or invited to that topic can respond. That way everyone gets what they want. Threads where everyone post in agreement and dont have to worry about people that disagree. TonyV wouldnt have to worry about people like the OP and the OP wouldnt have to worry about TonyV.
-Female Player-
Very different environment. Wargames run on unit mini sales. When they want to drive up interest, they release a new faction or a single new mechanic and propagate it to new units for the existing factions. Up until recently, balance changes were slow and people mostly just learned to play around whatever was broken. The closest MOG (multiplayer online game) equivalent would be something like League of Legends, although obviously the player skill-set is very very different.
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MMOs live and die on keeping people playing on a day-to-day basis; there's much less of the 'collectability' aspect. The genius of CoH was the powerset system (even though it was an accident and not what they were going for at all), since it made the game extremely replayable. The things that really helped the game synergized well with this (new ATs with Villains, new powersets here and there and a glut of them recently, and of course new content to level characters with) and the things that hurt it weakened this. (AE was a weird case, because on paper it should've been great for replayability, but it was too much when it launched. DFB and DiB really hit a much sweeter spot for that, but AE was hurt really badly by its rough launch.) Balance changes push people into replaying or re-evaluating their characters/options. Every MMO uses them this way. They all have those things you were complaining about. |
Originally Posted by Some Dude
Hey, I know you guys are mad. That's cool, bro. But you're stupid to feel that way.
Basically nobody played this game and the ones that did were mindless robots with uber gear that I couldn't get and they wouldn't team with me or give me things. The people who did play lower levels either were worse than me and totally sucked, or were better than me and it made me feel bad, those snobs. There should have been more of me in this game. I first played this game a while ago, probably, and I played it two or three times before I decided to make this post telling you all how bad it is. It's dated and all of the new stuff sucked too. When I bought Going Rogue and played the free month I thought it was going to be totally awesome because I always wanted to use two guns and be awesome, but I still had to play a Blaster so I deleted that toon. I know y'all are gonna hate but I know there's more people out there like this. When I heard the news it really didn't bother me at all. This game's sucked for the past seven years. |
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
He didnt go on a "Save COH" thread and posted that.
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I'm with you about one thing, though -- I don't really know why he deserved a response from anyone.
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I always felt that high handed actions were more likely to drive people away, especially when it's not the first time. Someone described it as having PS come in and break their toys.
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(And unfortunately we couldn't have really had, say, IOs without ED. There should always have been diminishing returns in Enhancements. The PvP changes were very poorly handled, but I remember the PvP environment prior to i13, too. It wasn't nearly the noble jousting folks seem to remember.)
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Well, that's easy enough to fix. Here's what it looks like to a long-term CoH player:
Obviously that's not what he really said, but I bet you can see how it might feel that way. He dwelled on some apparently petty issues and dismissed the game in huge, vaguely-worded swaths. The few 'moderate' comments he made came across as passive-aggressive, in the overall context, and it's pretty hard to see how he could have intended anything else. |
Yet I ask this to people that think like TonyV. If I said, to him or not to him directly, that I'm leaving the COX world, how do you feel? He probably would say that he dont give a crap based on his prior experience with dealing with me and I doubt many people would jump his case for that. And to me, that is what the OP was saying. He had bad experience, no matter how petty it seems to someone else, it seemed to bother him beyond the petty side, and said, based on his negative experience that he dont give crap about this game. So why jump on his case, the OP, if he so happen to have bad experiences with the game and not give a crap if it disappear off the face of the earth?
Actually, he did.
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Then it was wrong for him to do that as well, very wrong. And for TonyV to turn around and do it still doesnt make it any more of a right.
Or why not discuss the differences in a manner that is constructive, like this convo between me and you is going, IMO.
-Female Player-
People who post these kinds of threads remind me of the people who use a eulogy to talk about how much they disliked the person who died, and defend it by saying they were "being honest." In both cases, it's useless to try to reason with them. If they don't already have enough empathy to understand why it's a bad idea, no amount of words will grant it to them.
"Now, I'm not saying this guy at Microsoft sees gamers as a bunch of rats in a Skinner box. I'm just saying that he illustrates his theory of game design using pictures of rats in a Skinner box."
Eh. There's always that risk, but other people might see it as PS coming in and refurbishing their toys; that's certainly how I felt about ED, especially when IOs came out. Changing things might drive people away; stagnation certainly will.
(And unfortunately we couldn't have really had, say, IOs without ED. There should always have been diminishing returns in Enhancements. The PvP changes were very poorly handled, but I remember the PvP environment prior to i13, too. It wasn't nearly the noble jousting folks seem to remember.) |
-Female Player-
People who post these kinds of threads remind me of the people who use a eulogy to talk about how much they disliked the person who died, and defend it by saying they were "being honest." In both cases, it's useless to try to reason with them. If they don't already have enough empathy to understand why it's a bad idea, no amount of words will grant it to them.
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-Female Player-
If they didn't like me, why would they come to my funeral? Why would they go up and say something about it? Sure, talk to others who share your opinions all you want: "oh, that jerk's finally dead, good riddance." But what's the point in making it public?
I want people to be completely honest at my funeral. I want them to say that I was a good guy and that they miss me. Not that I'd really care at that point, but I'm sure my family will be insulted to hear someone start saying how he didn't like me.
And for TonyV to turn around and do it still doesnt make it any more of a right.
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The anger that Tony and others have shown might be mis-directed, but it's part of what's still binding us all together. Many of us, myself included, are very angry that someone wants to take Paragon City away, and it might be easy to see anyone who thinks that's a good idea as part of "those people" who are doing this. Even though they really aren't.
I don't agree with Tony about everything, but I do think it's important that we centralize our efforts. He's volunteered his "home" (Titan Network) to help with that. If you really feel like he's just a demagogue, I understand, but I think we can accomplish far more together than we can in small groups. This unfortunately means compromise... heh, a lot of compromise, maybe. But it's our best shot.
I find myself often going back to this.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA