Penny Yin's uber leet haxzor power set
By
Arilou,
Posted on: 2012-08-29 05:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Exactly what point do you think you're making here? People thinking you're harmless until you straight up murder people for stopping you doing illegal stuff doesn't make you 'misunderstood' or any definition of 'ok'. And the other police died when a raid on his warehouse went bad? Well someone call a lawyer, clearly he's been misrepresented! Killing the police in the course of their duties isn't that bad guys!|
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
The Clockwork were originally considered harmless as at first all they did was collect scrap metal. They didn't harm anyone until a police officer tried to stop them from stealing some copper wire. The other police officers died when a raid on the Clockwork warehouse turned into a rout.
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| At least at first, the King doesn't know that his creations were not actual robots. (There's a mission where you rescue some scientists CK had kidnapped over jealousy of their public recognition.) I think all Clockwork are capable of speech and display a fair degree of independent action and thought. |
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| If the Clockwork are sentient to any degree, then the King may or may not have consciously ordered them to manufacture more of themselves. It could be a simple, instinctive reaction on their part. As is attacking the policemen who interfered with their thievery. |
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| In general, the Clockwork have been relatively non lethal by villain standards in COH. (There's another mission where a contact asks you to retrieve a trophy stolen from a friend of his. Said friend is handicapped and when he attempted to get his trophy back from the Clockwork they disassembled his wheelchair but did not actually harm the man.) |
Babbage? The Paladin? The comic with the entire army of colossal robots causing devastation? A single anecdote about some Clockwork failing to kill someone who could do nothing to actually harm or stop them, does not make for a convincing argument for their niceness. You've managed to pull them up to 'thugs shoving over the disabled' level.
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| If you stir up an ant hill or a wasp's nest, you may get attacked. If you try to take food from a bear or a dog, you may get attacked. Does that make them evil? |
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Frostfire kills at least four people personally and becomes leader of a super powered gang that commits all kind of violence and havoc, but he redeems himself and is considered a hero by the time of the Level 40 Hero Tip Missions. If he can be considered fit for redemption, why not the Clockwork King? |
A good writer would have a field day with that, since Longbow is itself a murderous vigilante organisation with a happy face, that interferes with, impedes, and ignores actual government authorities, often international, for their own purposes.
Longbow have flung Frostfire a bone he wanted to take, no-one is saying he might not wanted to redeem himself, but it's only a result of Longbow being a ruthless bunch of bastards who wanted to make use of him during his incarceration.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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So...being insane is something you need to sign up to?
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Originally Posted by khorak_EU
A tragic villain is evil through actions or circumstances they have or had no control over.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
It depends entirely on whether the Clockwork King is in direct control of his creations at all times.
If they have any degree of autonomy at all, he can't be held responsible for everything they do.
If Pinocchio were to kill someone.....is Gepetto guilty of murder?
That's how I see it. I don't think the Clockwork King is ordering his creations to go around killing people. I also don't think he's fully aware of everything they've done.
This isn't a situation of guilt or innocence being crystal clear at all. I would wager that the only people who could really ascertain how responsible he is for the Clockwork's actions are psychics powerful enough to get inside his mind and determine how much of their actions he is consciously aware of.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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The point is that the Clockwork didn't hurt anyone until they were attacked directly themselves. If they are alive as opposed to animated then that's a self defensive action. The Clocks may not understand the difference between a piece of scrap no one wants or a valuable spool of copper wire in a van that's private property.|
Originally Posted by khorak_EU
Exactly what point do you think you're making here? People thinking you're harmless until you straight up murder people for stopping you doing illegal stuff doesn't make you 'misunderstood' or any definition of 'ok'. And the other police died when a raid on his warehouse went bad? Well someone call a lawyer, clearly he's been misrepresented! Killing the police in the course of their duties isn't that bad guys!
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| If he didn't know they were robots he still built them and directed them. He is culpable for what they do. Which was kill someone who tried to stop them, and kill more people who came to stop them. |
As for the other officers who died, there was an explosion in the warehouse caused by the battle with the Clockwork. They may or may not have died from the direct actions of the Clockwork.
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And now you've gone to self contradicting crazytown. The Clockwork are intrinsically not sentient or individual to any degree, because they're psionic constructs of the Clockwork King. The very best you can hope for is to define him as having a truly epic case of split personalities....he's still culpable for himself. |
That's why I put it the "power source or puppet master." The Clocks can't live without the King but it's unclear if he directs every single action they do. But just because he powers them that doesn't mean they have no wills of their own.
And I do think that if they are individual aspects of his personality "having my consciousness split between hundreds of individual bodies" might count as "not guilty by reason of insanity."
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Relatively. Non. Lethal.
Babbage? The Paladin? The comic with the entire army of colossal robots causing devastation? A single anecdote about some Clockwork failing to kill someone who could do nothing to actually harm or stop them, does not make for a convincing argument for their niceness. You've managed to pull them up to 'thugs shoving over the disabled' level.[/qupte]
Paladin basically goes off by himself (sometimes up to three of himself) and plays in a corner until some heroes bother to take him down. (Which most of the time no one bothers.) He's not tearing up the streets. He's not attacking civilians. He's just walking around.
Babbage attacks the heroes on the Synapse Task Force, but we are attacking the Clockwork ourselves. He runs around in Boomtown like a wild dog not harming anyone or anything until a hero shows up.
And in Paragon City, if you're accosted by a Vahzilok or a COT you may lose your body. A Skull, Hellion, Warrior, or Tsoo may kill you because they can. A Lost will slip you a mind altering drug and turn you into an alien being.
If you're accosted by Clockwork, more than likely you're gong to lose your jewelry, your watch, keys, and maybe your Creyphone. As long as you don't fight back, you are going to come out of it alive and unharmed. That's "fairly non-lethal" in my book.
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It does when they're psionic ants, wasps, bears, or dogs that are created and controlled by a man. |
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Because crap writing. The Frostfire thing is all sorts of massive crap, though it is blatantly obvious that Frostfire is tied up heavily with Longbow as he moves on from the Hollows. They're responsible for his whole arc after that, they serve as his antagonists, his jailers, then they start using him themselves, then he somehow ends up a 'hero'. A good writer would have a field day with that, since Longbow is itself a murderous vigilante organisation with a happy face, that interferes with, impedes, and ignores actual government authorities, often international, for their own purposes. Longbow have flung Frostfire a bone he wanted to take, no-one is saying he might not wanted to redeem himself, but it's only a result of Longbow being a ruthless bunch of bastards who wanted to make use of him during his incarceration. |
I can understand that. I had my own "What the Heck?" moment when they had Faith the Vampire Slayer turn a Face Heel Face turn on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
But having "misunderstood bad guy" become a hero is sort of standard comic lore.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It depends entirely on whether the Clockwork King is in direct control of his creations at all times.
If they have any degree of autonomy at all, he can't be held responsible for everything they do. If Pinocchio were to kill someone.....is Gepetto guilty of murder? That's how I see it. I don't think the Clockwork King is ordering his creations to go around killing people. I also don't think he's fully aware of everything they've done. This isn't a situation of guilt or innocence being crystal clear at all. I would wager that the only people who could really ascertain how responsible he is for the Clockwork's actions are psychics powerful enough to get inside his mind and determine how much of their actions he is consciously aware of. |
Or is Henry Pym responsible for the various acts of murder and genocide committed by Ultron in Marvel comics?
My COX Fanfiction:
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No, he's not. "Not guilty by reason of insanity" is a valid, if rare, verdict for a reason, and the Clockwork King is one of the few villains out there for whom it's not just an excuse. He doesn't know that he's hurting people and he doesn't know that he can control his actions. That's textbook legal insanity.
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Originally Posted by khorak_EU
If he didn't know they were robots he still built them and directed them. He is culpable for what they do.
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"Now, I'm not saying this guy at Microsoft sees gamers as a bunch of rats in a Skinner box. I'm just saying that he illustrates his theory of game design using pictures of rats in a Skinner box."
I always assumed the Clockwork were nonsentient puppets, but the CWK doesen't know this: He thinks they're alive (and that he is their king)
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Thank you, thank you! Tip your veal and try the waitress.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
 Seriously, that was painful. |
Some fairly disturbing morality you're expressing there, khorak. "No grey area" indeed.
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Originally Posted by khorak_EU
Exactly what point do you think you're making here? People thinking you're harmless until you straight up murder people for stopping you doing illegal stuff doesn't make you 'misunderstood' or any definition of 'ok'. And the other police died when a raid on his warehouse went bad? Well someone call a lawyer, clearly he's been misrepresented! Killing the police in the course of their duties isn't that bad guys!
If he didn't know they were robots he still built them and directed them. He is culpable for what they do. Which was kill someone who tried to stop them, and kill more people who came to stop them. And now you've gone to self contradicting crazytown. The Clockwork are intrinsically not sentient or individual to any degree, because they're psionic constructs of the Clockwork King. The very best you can hope for is to define him as having a truly epic case of split personalities....he's still culpable for himself. Relatively. Non. Lethal. Babbage? The Paladin? The comic with the entire army of colossal robots causing devastation? A single anecdote about some Clockwork failing to kill someone who could do nothing to actually harm or stop them, does not make for a convincing argument for their niceness. You've managed to pull them up to 'thugs shoving over the disabled' level. It does when they're psionic ants, wasps, bears, or dogs that are created and controlled by a man. Because crap writing. The Frostfire thing is all sorts of massive crap, though it is blatantly obvious that Frostfire is tied up heavily with Longbow as he moves on from the Hollows. They're responsible for his whole arc after that, they serve as his antagonists, his jailers, then they start using him themselves, then he somehow ends up a 'hero'. A good writer would have a field day with that, since Longbow is itself a murderous vigilante organisation with a happy face, that interferes with, impedes, and ignores actual government authorities, often international, for their own purposes. Longbow have flung Frostfire a bone he wanted to take, no-one is saying he might not wanted to redeem himself, but it's only a result of Longbow being a ruthless bunch of bastards who wanted to make use of him during his incarceration. |
So, I take it you really have no interrest in comic books, yet play the comic book inspired game?
Magneto goes back and forth from being villain to hero. That's just one example, there are others.
The alignment system in CoH is just a game mechanic given a storyline to making it a bit more intriguing/fun/desirable to some people. While the majority will do what they do already...ignore everything (hell they ignore it's a superhero game...though ti be fair I think the devs have started ignoring that too).
Also, I wouldn't think MMOs really have the time to pull off a more credible redemption story.
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Khorak - The tragedy of the Clockwork King is that he's is entirely deluded about his psychic power and about his "robots". He's possibly the strongest psychic mind in the world; so strong that his subconscious is able to hide his real power from his conscious mind in order to fulfill his wish to be the greatest robotocist in the world.
There's no evidence at all that he understood that he personally was responsible for the events that led to the death of those police officers. He truly believed that the clockworks were artificial intelligences. It's not at all clear that he would have wanted them to kill. Monsters from the ID and all that.
The real tragedy is that we'll never know whether he could have been helped and redeemed and whether he could have been made eventually to stand trial for those deaths or to regret them and attempt to make reparation for them. He was murdered in turn by Blue Steel, an ostensible hero. The only reason that Blue Steel is still on the hero rolls after that event is that the King's subconscious went all Donovan's Brain and "saved" the King, removing the evidence of Blue Steel's own culpability.
The whole story is one great frakking tragedy.
Bringing this back around to Penny Yin, what we don't really know at this time is just how much his mental awareness of his situation has changed over the years. What has she told him, and what has he been forced to acknowledge about himself in order to have a relationship with her? Does he literally see her as a "clockwork princess" who communicates with him via radio waves? Does he realize that he is actually a psychic and that some part of his mind is responsible? How close is he to coming to terms with his real self and potentially becoming the Psychic Clockwork King of the portal missions? Is his relationship with Penelope the thing that might prevent that or, if she turned up dead in the course of her superhero job, could it actually catalyze that transformation?
His "crush" on her might be a disaster waiting to happen. (I think that the way Positron says that her history with CK is "complicated" is an indication that the Phalanx thinks he has a "crush" on her. That potential for riling him up uncontrollably might be one reason that they seem to take a live-and-let-live approach instead of just "arresting" him outright, given that Penny could lead them right to him.)
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I'm actually anticipating this to be explored further. With Penny now a member of the Phalanx and not just a contact in Faultline, telling more of the story between her and the Clockwork King might be a cool storyline to play out. And it would be a nice change from the Praetorian stuff. |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Bringing this back around to Penny Yin, what we don't really know at this time is just how much his mental awareness of his situation has changed over the years. What has she told him, and what has he been forced to acknowledge about himself in order to have a relationship with her? Does he literally see her as a "clockwork princess" who communicates with him via radio waves? Does he realize that he is actually a psychic and that some part of his mind is responsible? How close is he to coming to terms with his real self and potentially becoming the Psychic Clockwork King of the portal missions? Is his relationship with Penelope the thing that might prevent that or, if she turned up dead in the course of her superhero job, could it actually catalyze that transformation?
His "crush" on her might be a disaster waiting to happen. |
The second round of SSAs is actually somewhat hinting at something along those lines.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Still kinda would like to maybe see if the Clockwork King could be redeemed.
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
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In CoH, everyone can be redeemed.
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Originally Posted by cursedsorcerer
Still kinda would like to maybe see if the Clockwork King could be redeemed.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
In CoH, everyone can be redeemed.
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It'd be awesome sometime if a Dev would appear as the Clockwork King asking to join a morality mission...
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Blue's Assembled Story Links
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No it wouldn't. They'd ruin CWK with talk of MLP. And other non-sense that loses the feel of the game |
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
It'd be awesome sometime if a Dev would appear as the Clockwork King asking to join a morality mission...
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Though on a less related note, I've always wanted to see something like the Super Seventeen Saga with the Clockwork king where he fuses with all of his alternate world counterparts and, well, becomes one of the few opponents worthy of battling for an incarnate Trial.
*Though possibly older, he was only really described as a "young man" so I'd say mid twenties at the oldest when he "died."