A Well Thought-out F2P Rant
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-08-04 01:07 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Oh I thought that costume creator was a huge slap in the face. I almost cancelled my pre-order when I saw it. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Not being able to pick the race I wanted with the class I wanted untill I hit level 50 is what killed it for me.
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I had no problem with them wanting to use a humanoid skeleton to make synching with the voice acting easier, but they could have given us something like STO costume creator so we could customize up some decent alien heads.
An even better though-out, non-rant about F2P.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/10/tech...html?hpt=hp_t3
Some very good points for and against.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Oh yes, better customization would of been a big plus as well. That's always a plus!
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Oh I thought that costume creator was a huge slap in the face. I almost cancelled my pre-order when I saw it.
I had no problem with them wanting to use a humanoid skeleton to make synching with the voice acting easier, but they could have given us something like STO costume creator so we could customize up some decent alien heads. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
That was an extremely jarring aspect of the morality system. It didn't actually allow you to choose *morality*. It let you choose actions, and the game imposed morality upon you, often in a manner completely inconsistent with what your intent was.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I just remembered one that bugged the hell out of me. Two student were secretly in love and you were sent to spy on them. You had the choice of turning them in or keeping their secret, but if you chose to keep quiet the voice acting automatically turned you into a blackmailer demanding payment to keep silent.
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This was especially bad on the Jedi side. Ironically the dark side was somewhat simpler: it was usually stab his back or stab her back or stupidly offer your back to someone. But whoever wrote the Jedi side has some very interesting views on what is "good."
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I could swear I've heard this gripe before. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
So once you made a character for each faction and hit the level cap you experienced all the content the game had to offer.
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Seriously, though, it's a brand new game; it's going to be short on content. With all that was spent on it, with all the popularity it had, I found the F2P announcement surprising. CoX's younger siblings lasted longer, as did another sci-fi game. None of which had even half of this other game's popularity at launch. Sure the time immediately following launch can be stormy, but I figured they'd hang in there for more than 8 months.
Freedom
Blueside: Knight'Hawk, lvl 50, Scrapper
Yellowside: Dark'Falcon (Loyalist), lvl 20, Blaster
That Stinging Sensation #482183
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Ah yes the popular "I've hard this gripe before" dismissal.|
Originally Posted by Night-Hawk07
I could swear I've heard this gripe before.
Seriously, though, it's a brand new game; it's going to be short on content. With all that was spent on it, with all the popularity it had, I found the F2P announcement surprising. CoX's younger siblings lasted longer, as did another sci-fi game. None of which had even half of this other game's popularity at launch. Sure the time immediately following launch can be stormy, but I figured they'd hang in there for more than 8 months. |
Fact. They started merging the servers before 6 months had passed due to the drastically dwindling playerbase.
Fact. They openly admitted sales were disappointing.
Fact. In a desperate attempt to save the game and attract potential customers they are switching from a subscription based business model to a hybrid F2P business model.
I hope it works out for them. I'll go back when the F2P launches to see if they fixed the problem that preventing me from being able to log into the game, but I'm not spending money to not be able to play a game. I can keep my $15 bucks and not play for free.
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Yeah, the Sith side seemed much more immersive in that sense. Whereas a "good" Jedi had to be (at times, by turns) preachy, wantonly irresponsible, and even perhaps vaguely fascist -- a good Sith is portrayed basically as an honorable, practical person who doesn't want to hurt or kill people. If you set out to play that exact character on the Jedi side, you'd probably end up with more Dark Side points than Light.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That was an extremely jarring aspect of the morality system. It didn't actually allow you to choose *morality*. It let you choose actions, and the game imposed morality upon you, often in a manner completely inconsistent with what your intent was.
This was especially bad on the Jedi side. Ironically the dark side was somewhat simpler: it was usually stab his back or stab her back or stupidly offer your back to someone. But whoever wrote the Jedi side has some very interesting views on what is "good." |
It's a measure of how screwed up the alignment system is that the same approach, the same philosophy, can lead you in opposite directions depending on which class you play.
Since you guys have already covered the infamous secret-tryst conversation on Tython, here's another example that absolutely floored me:
Late in the game, there's a Republic planet that defects to the Empire. The defection is organized by one particular man on the planet's high council. This councilor -- I'll call him councilor B -- later has a change of heart, and so he helps you (as a Republic PC) to overthrow the Empire, risking his life to feed you information and whatnot.
Immediately after you win back the planet, you're given a morality check: Arrest councilor B and let him stand trial with the rest of his peers (Dark Side), or forgive him and let him go free (Light Side). That choice is mildly bothersome, but it gets much worse:
Later on, and if you choose to let the councilor go free, you get another morality check: You can either recommend to the Republic that the councilor lose his previous position of power (Dark Side), or you can recommend that he retain his position in the government (Light Side). This one had me gaping stupidly at the screen for several minutes: it's one thing to forgive the guy for previous crimes (crimes that got millions killed, btw) because he "redeemed" himself later. I can (kinda, sorta) understand not throwing him in jail immedaitely after he helped you to liberate the planet.
But you don't appoint that same guy to his old leadership position. That's just flat-out stupid. Why is he entitled not just to his freedom, but to great wealth and power, when the helpless families of all the citizens he caused to die are still out in the rubble wailing?
It's the redemption theme that made me ill throughout the Jedi storylines. The councilor-tastrophe was perhaps the worst example, though not necessarily the most disturbing, when you really think about it: the concept that fallen Jedi can always be redeemed, no matter what atrocities they commit -- that fallen Jedi who are redeemed are simply whisked off to Tython to undergo mystic rehab instead of standing trial for their crimes, that (implicitly) only other Jedi are qualified to judge, redeem, and subsequently to detox their fallen brethren, that anything Jedi do while under the influence of the Dark Side is forgivable -- well let's just say that if I were a Republic citizen, I'd have a serious problem with that.
Redemption is a central theme of the movies, but at least Anakin had the good sense to die after he redeemed himself by chucking the Emperor down that reactor chute. If Luke'd just showed up with a healthy Vader afterwards, at the Ewok camp, can you imagine the response? "Wait, no guys, put away your weapons. It's cool; Dad is totally sorry for slaughtering innocents over the last two decades. And he'll buy your next round of drinks!"
Anyway, the point is that redemption is good, but the way the game constantly throws redemption in your face, constantly forces you to associate no-strings-attached-redemption with goodness and light, and by extension forces you to associate any kind of urge to punish with petty revenge -- all of that made the whole redemption theme look preposterous. And that's really a shame.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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They opened a TON of servers because at launch they didn't have enough to handle the amount of people playing. Once things settled down, then yeah, it'd make sense to need to merge severs, have server transfers, etc. A few months ago, they were claiming to have roughly 1.5 million players; a number most MMOs would kill to have. However, I have a feeling the game's overlords were expecting the 10 million another game boasted, and were "disappointed" by that.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Ah yes the popular "I've hard this gripe before" dismissal.
Fact. They started merging the servers before 6 months had passed due to the drastically dwindling playerbase. Fact. They openly admitted sales were disappointing. Fact. In a desperate attempt to save the game and attract potential customers they are switching from a subscription based business model to a hybrid F2P business model. I hope it works out for them. I'll go back when the F2P launches to see if they fixed the problem that preventing me from being able to log into the game, but I'm not spending money to not be able to play a game. I can keep my $15 bucks and not play for free. |
From MY view, things seemed to be going well despite all the whining and people leaving. I've witnessed a couple of MMO launches the past few years, and it was the same thing with them. Biggest problem is we live in an IWANTITNAODAMNIT society that, unlike when CoH and a couple of others launched, won't wait around for things to stabilize and for the developers to start building on the game.
Sure it's got a few bugs, a few things that annoy people, but I personally wouldn't call it an utter failure like some were/are so quick to do. Apparently, my opinion isn't shared by many. Now, if two years had gone by with little - no change, then my opinion would change (which happened with an aforementioned sci-fi game).
Oh, and the "I've heard this gripe before" thing wasn't a dismisal. It was joke, because for years, we'd heard the same thing about CoH.
Freedom
Blueside: Knight'Hawk, lvl 50, Scrapper
Yellowside: Dark'Falcon (Loyalist), lvl 20, Blaster
That Stinging Sensation #482183
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Night-Hawk07
They opened a TON of servers because at launch they didn't have enough to handle the amount of people playing. Once things settled down, then yeah, it'd make sense to need to merge severs, have server transfers, etc. A few months ago, they were claiming to have roughly 1.5 million players; a number most MMOs would kill to have. However, I have a feeling the game's overlords were expecting the 10 million another game boasted, and were "disappointed" by that.
From MY view, things seemed to be going well despite all the whining and people leaving. I've witnessed a couple of MMO launches the past few years, and it was the same thing with them. Biggest problem is we live in an IWANTITNAODAMNIT society that, unlike when CoH and a couple of others launched, won't wait around for things to stabilize and for the developers to start building on the game. Sure it's got a few bugs, a few things that annoy people, but I personally wouldn't call it an utter failure like some were/are so quick to do. Apparently, my opinion isn't shared by many. Now, if two years had gone by with little - no change, then my opinion would change (which happened with an aforementioned sci-fi game). Oh, and the "I've heard this gripe before" thing wasn't a dismisal. It was joke, because for years, we'd heard the same thing about CoH. |
Yeah, I see your point. Losing a million customers for various reasons in the first 6 months and still seeing a steady decline towards what the minimum number of subscribers they reported they needed to turn a profit (EA said that it needs 500,000 subscribers) is no cause for them to be alarmed and panic.
Now as to that other sci-fi game, if it's the one I'm thinking of they had 6 issues added to the game in the two years they've been active and they also added a lot of stuff between issues to their store since microtransactions were planned from the start.
That's nearly the same amount of issues we ourselves recieved during the first two years here.
Personally I still think the biggest mistake that game made, if they never intended to intentionally switch to F2P from the get go, was that they continued to sell LTS's after launch. That removed a significant portion of their steady income from monthly subscriptions.
The suspicious part of me wouldn't be surprised to learn that the creators of that other sci-fi game always planned to eventually switch to a hybrid F2P business model once the sub fees dropped below a certain point.
And for the record I like the IP of this most recent sci-fi MMO a hell of a lot more than I do the IP of that other sci-fi MMO. If I had to choose which one to pull the plug on it wouldn't be the one with the laser swords.
My reasons for leaving had to do with the lousy customer support not the in game experience. If I could have gotten in touch with CS and fixed my launcher issue I'd still be subscribing.
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They can be redeemed if they commit galactic mass murder. But some crimes are unforgivable, like lying about moving a rock. There's no second chances for that crime.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
It's the redemption theme that made me ill throughout the Jedi storylines. The councilor-tastrophe was perhaps the worst example, though not necessarily the most disturbing, when you really think about it: the concept that fallen Jedi can always be redeemed, no matter what atrocities they commit -- that fallen Jedi who are redeemed are simply whisked off to Tython to undergo mystic rehab instead of standing trial for their crimes, that (implicitly) only other Jedi are qualified to judge, redeem, and subsequently to detox their fallen brethren, that anything Jedi do while under the influence of the Dark Side is forgivable -- well let's just say that if I were a Republic citizen, I'd have a serious problem with that.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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LOL, true.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
They can be redeemed if they commit galactic mass murder. But some crimes are unforgivable, like lying about moving a rock. There's no second chances for that crime.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I have no first-hand knowledge of this game, but from what I know about Star Wars in general, the Light Side vs. Dark Side morality axis has always been a messed up one.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Yeah, the Sith side seemed much more immersive in that sense. Whereas a "good" Jedi had to be (at times, by turns) preachy, wantonly irresponsible, and even perhaps vaguely fascist -- a good Sith is portrayed basically as an honorable, practical person who doesn't want to hurt or kill people. If you set out to play that exact character on the Jedi side, you'd probably end up with more Dark Side points than Light.
It's a measure of how screwed up the alignment system is that the same approach, the same philosophy, can lead you in opposite directions depending on which class you play. Since you guys have already covered the infamous secret-tryst conversation on Tython, here's another example that absolutely floored me: Late in the game, there's a Republic planet that defects to the Empire. The defection is organized by one particular man on the planet's high council. This councilor -- I'll call him councilor B -- later has a change of heart, and so he helps you (as a Republic PC) to overthrow the Empire, risking his life to feed you information and whatnot. Immediately after you win back the planet, you're given a morality check: Arrest councilor B and let him stand trial with the rest of his peers (Dark Side), or forgive him and let him go free (Light Side). That choice is mildly bothersome, but it gets much worse: Later on, and if you choose to let the councilor go free, you get another morality check: You can either recommend to the Republic that the councilor lose his previous position of power (Dark Side), or you can recommend that he retain his position in the government (Light Side). This one had me gaping stupidly at the screen for several minutes: it's one thing to forgive the guy for previous crimes (crimes that got millions killed, btw) because he "redeemed" himself later. I can (kinda, sorta) understand not throwing him in jail immedaitely after he helped you to liberate the planet. But you don't appoint that same guy to his old leadership position. That's just flat-out stupid. Why is he entitled not just to his freedom, but to great wealth and power, when the helpless families of all the citizens he caused to die are still out in the rubble wailing? It's the redemption theme that made me ill throughout the Jedi storylines. The councilor-tastrophe was perhaps the worst example, though not necessarily the most disturbing, when you really think about it: the concept that fallen Jedi can always be redeemed, no matter what atrocities they commit -- that fallen Jedi who are redeemed are simply whisked off to Tython to undergo mystic rehab instead of standing trial for their crimes, that (implicitly) only other Jedi are qualified to judge, redeem, and subsequently to detox their fallen brethren, that anything Jedi do while under the influence of the Dark Side is forgivable -- well let's just say that if I were a Republic citizen, I'd have a serious problem with that. Redemption is a central theme of the movies, but at least Anakin had the good sense to die after he redeemed himself by chucking the Emperor down that reactor chute. If Luke'd just showed up with a healthy Vader afterwards, at the Ewok camp, can you imagine the response? "Wait, no guys, put away your weapons. It's cool; Dad is totally sorry for slaughtering innocents over the last two decades. And he'll buy your next round of drinks!" Anyway, the point is that redemption is good, but the way the game constantly throws redemption in your face, constantly forces you to associate no-strings-attached-redemption with goodness and light, and by extension forces you to associate any kind of urge to punish with petty revenge -- all of that made the whole redemption theme look preposterous. And that's really a shame. |
That reminds me of the one Republic mission where you are asked to retrieve supplies from a crashed ship only to learn that the supplies are in fact addictive narcotics and the Republic representative is getting refugees in outlying villages hooked to prevent them from joining Seperatist insurgents.
'Oh, you want good guy points? Then disobey your superior officer and discard any notions of security procedure any time anyone gets curious as to why John Rambo is poking around their neighborhood.'
ADDED: 'And the mole you've been suspecting since you first showed up in camp? Yeah, that's almost everyone on your 'team.' You know, the people who stood around and barely interacted with you while you ran all over saving the planet. I'm sure you'll have a huge emotional moment over their sudden and inevitable betrayal.'
ALSO ADDED: 'Oh, and that camp bully, the one who threatened you when you were going to report him to the authorities? Yeah, you'll get an email later on how he was dragged off to the stockade. I hope you weren't thinking of him actually ambushing you at some point, I mean, actions having serious consquences? Who needs that when actions can have nothing but loot, good guy / bad guy points, and a feel good email.'
... I think I'll stop now.
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I don't know. I can kinda see the redemption angle in Star Wars.
Sure it all seems bad, untill you see it as two sides of a war, which is all it really is.
Empire vs Republic.
You're at war. You kill the enemy. Who says there's rules to it like "Don't kill civilians?"
Anakin was on one side, he switched, then he switched back.
Of course, when you work for the other side of the war, people hate you.
A bit different than "Hey lets hook our own people on drugs"
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Per the storyline, you're actually not technically at war til near the end.
Some of the atrocities committed aren't strictly a matter of your-side-versus-mine, even so. Moreover, there are some betrayals you can't forgive. Or if you do forgive them (which is fine, from an interpersonal and/or spiritual perspective), you can't let them walk off scot free. You definitely can't put them right back in their old position of power so that they can betray you again.
The impression the story gives me is that the Jedi are a group of self-serving superhumans who traipse around the galaxy declaring who is and who isn't above the law, seemingly at whim. A couple of redemption scenes wouldn't have been out of place, but after the bajillionth dude-massacred-a-colony-but-the-dark-side-made-him-do-it cutscene, I started to feel a little ill. Both Jedi class stories are chock-full of those moments.
The worst part is when there's a non-Jedi NPC standing nearby saying, "WTF," when you spare the villain who killed his comrades, and the game implies that he's the evil one for feeling as he does, or that you'd be evil if you sided with him. Let's put blame where it most belongs, eh?
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Although it does go a long way to explaining why when Order 66 is executed, it seems basically no one in the galaxy really gives a damn.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Per the storyline, you're actually not technically at war til near the end.
Some of the atrocities committed aren't strictly a matter of your-side-versus-mine, even so. Moreover, there are some betrayals you can't forgive. Or if you do forgive them (which is fine, from an interpersonal and/or spiritual perspective), you can't let them walk off scot free. You definitely can't put them right back in their old position of power so that they can betray you again. The impression the story gives me is that the Jedi are a group of self-serving superhumans who traipse around the galaxy declaring who is and who isn't above the law, seemingly at whim. A couple of redemption scenes wouldn't have been out of place, but after the bajillionth dude-massacred-a-colony-but-the-dark-side-made-him-do-it cutscene, I started to feel a little ill. Both Jedi class stories are chock-full of those moments. The worst part is when there's a non-Jedi NPC standing nearby saying, "WTF," when you spare the villain who killed his comrades, and the game implies that he's the evil one for feeling as he does, or that you'd be evil if you sided with him. Let's put blame where it most belongs, eh? |
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Heh, that quest with the two students is the moment that hooked me in (for as long as that F2P trial, anyway). It really gave me a feel to be immersed in a far future universe, where morality would have changed a fair bit and 21th century western-centric definitions of good and bad didn't exactly apply.
I'm not much of a Star Wars fan though. Never managed to watch the original movies, it bores me to tears within minutes. So if the game manages to make the lore interesting to me... You can guess they probably did something very wrong compared to the original material.
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Heh, it does kinda make me wonder what the other 65 were. I think kill-the-jedi would've cracked my top 10 |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Although it does go a long way to explaining why when Order 66 is executed, it seems basically no one in the galaxy really gives a damn.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I was going for playing a jedi ahead of her thinking (like Luke basically) and then my dialogue ended up like that? *sigh*
It didnt break the game for me though. In fact I think those choose an option and then see the cutscene for it was one of the best things ever (still do) even if they didnt always match up with what I figured they'd do.
Not being able to pick the race I wanted with the class I wanted untill I hit level 50 is what killed it for me.
I had the intention of making one character, no more, leveling it up and focusing on it. I didn't want to level and extra one just to get what I wanted. :/
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection