what content should be the template for the future?

Yes, and sadly the time and large capital outlay was used to make all those old arcs and I am not seeing that kind of time and capital outlay likely in the near future. This means we will likely only see SSA arcs and the occasional story arc for villains.

The ironic thing is, I see a few people talk about how much better the villain arcs are, but I just don't see it. I'd much rather run the old hero content.

It is not a matter of like. I like the PYTF fine (I think it could use another mission, but that is a personal preference and it works fine as is). It really is like they took SPTF and removed a bunch of missions. Same story, same enemies, same map types (sure they used some fancy versions, but none of them were new maps).

Thawed bread doesn't taste bad, but it isn't the same thing as fresh from the oven.

I know what you're saying, you want more "villainous" content where you get to stab people in the eyes and watch them bleed to death (hyperbole).


My point that you seem to miss is that you are getting "Villain" content (the story arcs not coop stuff)...whether or not you like it is another point together.

If all it takes is a typo to cause you to no longer enjoy an arc, I think you may need to chill out and relax.

Ignoring the fact that pretty much every piece of so-called co-op content is, in actual practice, hero-only content that villains just have access to, that's not a good position to have. Co-op content is beyond old at this point, and I'm frankly getting sick of the "Heroes and villains must work together to stop a common threat! Oh, and er... Villains can be jerks about it, I guess!" angle of... Essentially every major plotline to hit the game. Enough with the cosmic horrors and alien invasions and "bigger than our differences" disasters that requires heroes and villains to work together.

Let heroes be heroes, let villains be villains and stop with this co-op nonsense. I didn't buy it for the Rikti War Zone and I don't buy it now. There's only so much co-op content you can put into the game before you may as well just merge the alignments and be done with it.

I honestly don't like that idea. Sure, some of the new arcs are good, but I REALLY don't like the new approach to storytelling. I've cited a lot of good newer stuff, but that stuff's good pretty much because it's a lot like the old stuff, where you're told what to do, why you need to do it and just let loose to play the game. I don't need scripted sequences, cutscenes, dialogue trees or every boss I defeat wanting to speak with me in order to enjoy City of Heroes. Honestly, I enjoy the old style greatly, and I find all of these old arcs to be good BECAUSE they're simple.

I like kill-alls, and indeed play every mission like it were a kill-all irrespective of its actual objectives. If anything, I hate missions that rush me or force me to leave before being able to kill everything on the map. I like simple objectives like taking down a boss, clicking a glowie or rescuing self-extracting hostages. I like simple clues that pop up in my actual clues window, as opposed to in conversations or text boxes. I liked the City of Heroes of 2004, and my opinion hasn't changed.

If anything, what the old 2004 story arcs suffer from isn't a lack of annoying gimmicks, it's a simple case of just poor writing and padding. To Save a Soul, for instance, sends me to the "psychic plane" about five separate times, once for no reason and four times to get a single individual clue. As far as I'm concerned, all of those missions could have been condensed into one and just had me find all the clues on my first go, or at most two, by having the first foray actually have a point. Similarly, The Organ Grinders has me visit a chemical plant that it turns out wasn't involved in any way, only to accidentally find a 5th Column base under it and go raid that. Just 'cuz. World Wide Red can probably be split up into three parts - start to Moment, then Moment to Wildflower, then Wildflower to Director 17. Division: Line can do with a bit more personality for Angus McQueen and a bit more interaction with C'Khelkah and so forth.

What I'm saying is I don't want to see my favourite old arcs crammed with the gimmicks of modern mission design because I don't LIKE modern mission design. I'll make concessions that some of the newer story arcs are good, but they're good DESPITE all the gimmicks thrown into them, not because of those. In the same way you talk about old stories being good but poorly told, so I see new stories being good, but told through annoying and immersion-breaking means.

Dark Astoria is one of the best pieces of new content mostly because it budgets its "gimmicks" in a smart way and lets me just go out and kill stuff, but it's still heedlessly annoying in more than a few places. Defeating the army of Romulus by relying on an army of unreliable NPCs that die mid-way through is rage-inducing, as is the final mission that does the same thing. The one where I have to essentially camp around a boat at sea and fight ambushes and tentacles all mission is equally as bad because it's just poor gameplay. The one with Scirocco and Ice Mistral with their screen-obscuring power effects and that HORRIBLE full-screen filter where I can't see a damn thing just means I stumble through that mission blind as a bat and occasionally take swings at targeting reticles.

Basically, I don't think ambushes, NPC allies and mid-mission conversations necessarily make for a better game, and I'd hate for that to happen to the old story arcs that I still enjoy. Maybe if our mission designers can keep up the good work from Dark Astoria and SSA2.1, then MAYBE I'll trust them to mess with the oldies, but as of right now, no. These guys have a lot of horrible content to atone for.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

No, it's really not. SSA1 was a Greater Good fiasco just like the rest of the co-op content in the game; they just decided to spring it on us 5 episodes in rather than right at the start. The last contact is Infernia, in the RWZ for god's sake. The SSA does not villain-oriented content make. If you're not VIP you have to pay for it anyway. I will repeat myself: Dean MacArthur, Leonard Silman and Vincent Ross all have arcs that put the villain in charge. A few grand examples of arcs that make you into a bumbling idiot villain minion are Hardcase (where a crotchety old demon hunter tells you to save St. Martial), Peter Themari (where a crotchety old sadist tells you to bring him a guinea pig), Westin Phipps (where a crotchety old wolf-in-sheeps-clothing tells you to gas orphans), and the list really does go on and on (Crash Cage, Diviner Maros, Psymon Omega, Vernon Von Grun, Marshal Brass, Willy Wheeler, Hard Luck, Timothy Raymond, Doctor Creed, Mr. Bocor, shall I continue?) and it's painful that 3 arcs out of over one hundred are the only three that really capture what it means to be a villain.

Those initial villain lines to Heather are deceptive, smart*** comments. Heather also expresses reservation throughout the arc that she's working with a villain, and that she's confused as to why you would ever help. At the same time, orange text pops up frequently just to give an "inner exposition" about how you may ultimately be able to use this to make yourself more powerful and screw everyone else. It's pretty cool.

Yeah.. it's a very unfortunate attitude. There would probably be more villains if there was enough of a reason to play them. St. Martial needs a major story revamp, I think it's by far the biggest misstep. Almost all of its arcs are completely terrible.

You are missing the point by a mile. All of the co-op arcs have strongly heroic overtones. We would like just once, that heroes be required to do something villainous for the greater good, while we actually get to be truly evil.

That's just illustrating the new style dialog trees to be introduced in a future Issue. The intent is to give your character the ability to speak in any* voice, by giving a choice of various accents and attitudes. (*For sufficiently stupid values of "any")

The Malta Code
Part 255d: Viridian blows it, again

I apologise, $name, but a stray dog stole my only codebook right out of my hand and ran off to the Shadow Shard. I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to proceed, as without it I can't decode that message you showed me.
______________________________________________

Let's go hang out at the mall.
Linguam Anglicam nescio. Latine loqui?
I assure you, my good man, $name is "down with the street."
Ise gwyne fine dat code book ef ah hafta ketch ebry dawg in the Chantry.

Punch Viridian

Leave

actually they tend to have strong vigilante overtones

heroes have to be villainous for the greater good

It's also a cop-out. I've run the arc on my pure blue Stalker and several pure red Brutes; the mission arc text is a copypasta and adding orange 'flavor text' does not constitute the arc being villainous. If there's one thing I hate almost as much as "the greater good" it's "for your own gain." You played along with this contact and helped them, but for your own gain! You stopped Darrin Wade and saved the world for your own gain! You ran with the Vanguard and did what they told you, but for your own gain! Enough. How about instead of playing nice with Heather in arc 1 of DA, villains get a dialogue option to the tune of "I don't care about what's happening here. Tell me where I can find someone important so I can kill them and show the Midnighters who runs this show." Then she promptly spills the location of Kadabra and Sigil.

-Johnny Sonata, who runs you all over the zone kicking Wailers.
-Hardcase, who runs you all over the zone kicking Wailers.
-Basse Croupier, who has you beat up a Freak Tank who gambled.
-Hard Luck, who has you beat up a Freak Tank who gambled and later has you steal some guy's beard.
-Vivacious Verandi, who bounces you pretty much everywhere and has you act like a clown while being Hardcase's buttmonkey.

The only memorable contact for me is Slot Machine, which has great writing despite being a heroic story arc.


... no, they don't.

It's a typo...

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Didn't say it wasn't. It's definitely a cop-out. I still liked it, would have preferred something different though.

This made me LMAO in real life. Good work.



Anyone have some buttglue?

Oh for the love of...

Villain side new arcs = Villains
Hero side new arcs = Heroes
Co-Op stuff 'For the Greater good!' = Heroic

Villains 1, Heroes 2. Does that make it painfully clear enough what my point was yet?

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

That would be very cool. It will also never happen unfortunately.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Yep...you don't like the coop content...


It's still content for/that villains can do...so that one is a split like it should be...

so..it's Villains 2, Heroes 2....ta-da!

And now you're being purposefully obtuse or purposefully trolling.


None of the Co-op Content is 'Villain' Content. It is Hero content that Villains can tag along with. That does not, by dint of still being Heroic, make it Villain Content. There is a difference.

Example; Heroes want to take down Dr Madness, but don't have access to certain Rogue Isles privileges that, oh look, villains do. 'Fortunately' the Villains also want to take down Dr Madness, but for purely selfish and destructive/villainous reasons. They realise that, solo, it's probably a fairly bad idea to take on the 'good Dr', so, hey, Heroes can be dragged along as meat shi- I mean, accomplices.

While the Heroes may get to defeat the Doc, it's the Villains, ultimately, who are calling the shots, in charge and who get the most profit from such a mission. i.e. the complete opposite of what we have right now, where the Villains just...well...meekly shut up and go along with it all 'for the Greater Good', which is the lamest excuse in a story line ever, short of actual deus ex machina.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

You miss the point entirely. This was never a question of "content villains can run." You can unlock all of Paragon City for villain players and that wouldn't add any more villain content. This is a question of content written for villain protagonists and written to allow the character to express at least some side of evil as an overall running thematic. This isn't the case.

Where co-op content fails is in trying to appeal to both sides and failing to be fair. It's fairly easy to justify villains doing good things without ruining their character. Maybe they had alternate goals, maybe they're misunderstood or maybe they just felt like it. It's not as easy to justify heroes doing evil things without ruining their character, however. It doesn't matter how many people's you've saved. As soon as you violently and wantonly murder even just a single person, you go down for manslaughter. It is for this reason that co-op content has to be hero-centric so as not to completely destroy hero characters, but it is also for this reason that it will never, ever be really applicable to villains and why it needs to stop being the centre of every issue.

Aside from Bane Spider Ruben and Brother Hammond in I23, I honestly can't remember the last time villains got a story arc of their own since pretty much Vincent Ross in I19, if it wasn't even I18. And co-op content doesn't count as "a story arc of their own" because it's not content written for villains. It's about right for heroes, but villains more or less have to do it out-of-character. Again, it's not a question of needing more content, story be damned. If that's all it was about, we could grind Paper missions like back in the day when you ran out of content at level 44. It's a question of story arcs that make villains feel like villains and players feel pleased to be evil. You can't do that in co-op content.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Well, it sounds like a bigger change than it really is, and it also doesn't all have to happen all at once. Let's try and paint a first step.

With Marshal Jason Blitz gone (I forget if he's dead or in prison), a new warlord emerges on Warburg. Fortunata Erin Gossamer, disgusted with how the villains of the Isles betrayed her master, takes off her helmet and assumes control over what's left of the Warburg armies and begins a concentrated war against the Rogue Isles, and Arachnos especially for doing what they did to Blitz. This puts extreme pressure on Arachnos, who are already engaged in a war on multiple fronts. Even with their Homerowrld portal disabled, the Rikti are still a real and pressing threat that tie up Arachnos forces in an uneasy backstabbing alliance with the Traditionalist. The events of both Galaxy City and Faultline have put Arachnos in a state of cold war with the US government, who now have a policy of looking the other way when licensed heroes from Paragon City make blatant invasions of Arachnos soil. The Praetorian war is still ongoing, sapping massive numbers of Arachnos soldiers to stem the tide, especially with the uneasy "truce" between the Rogue Isles and the US. And with Mot rampaging in Dark Astoria, causing Scirocco to defect, Arachnos has never been as weak as it is now.

Sensing a weakness in the power structure, Guido "The Mooch" Verandi attempts a power play in order to usurp power over Port Oaks. He overtakes the Arachnos skeleton crew guarding the government building, but is beaten back by Emil Marcone's forces coming to "save" the building. Guido is forced to retreat, occupying the lightly guarded Villa Montrose and fortifying his position there against the attack of both Arachnos and Family forces. Just as it seems like the island will remain in Arachnos hands, Emil turns on his allies and takes over all of Marconeville, along with the government building itself. It transpires that Emil has been receiving massive amounts of guns, men and money from Sbastian Frost on the Mainland, who wants Port Oaks freed from Arachnos customs control to use as a staging ground for his drugs trafficking and smuggling. Emil Marcone declares the island free of Arachnos rule and forms the new independent nation of Port Oaks, with himself as "president."

Family forces now control the entire island except for Villa Montrose, which has been fortified and serving as the base of operations for the "rebels" - Guido Verandi's Mooks. Having taken control of the heavy turrets and fortified the exterior walls, the Mooks are now essentially impossible to shift from their position. Mooks can still be seen throughout the city, fighting with Family forces, setting fires, placing explosives and smuggling supplies to keep up Guido's guerilla war. It transpires that the Verandi at Villa Montrose are also receiving the aid of the Council, whose positions on the island have become threatened by Emil Marcone's aggressive moves to control the island and suppress all other military force. In the midst of the chaos, the Lost have stepped up their preaching, the Hellions have all but overrun Oil Spill and the Snakes have infested Dockside. Arachnos forces still remain on the island, holed up at Fort Hades. They lack the supplies to retake the island, but are holding the position as a landing strip for reinforcements when and if those become available.

---

OK, now consider what would have to be done for this one zone to be changed:

1. Swap spawns around. Move almost all Family spawns to Marconeville and have them patrol the streets. Move almost all Mook spawns to Villa Montrose and have them stand around with guns drawn. Move all Turrets spawns to stand on top of the wall around Villa Montrose and make them hostile to spawns around the wall. Move all Hellion spawns to Oil Spill. Pepper the rest of the zone with a combination of the other factions there. Remove Council spawns from the zone almost entirely to simulate them having been forced underground. Move all Arachnos spawns and Veluta Lunata inside the Fort.

2. Swap the banners on the Arachnos tower with the new flag of Port Oaks, or remove them altogether. Either remove the Arachnos propaganda posters or just have them spray-painted over so they're defaced. There aren't that many of those.

3. Build up the wall around Villa Montrose to be higher and look like it's been reinforced with scrap materials. Possibly make it look like it's been shot at and had explosives blown up at it.

#1 doesn't require any art time at all, just someone to sit down and reposition spawns like what War Witch did for the Hollows. #2 requires very little art time since the changes are fairly minor. #3 does require some art time, but it isn't actually terribly necessary. And that's ALL you need to do for one Issue. Change that one zone and leave the others as they are. Then NEXT ISSUE, change another one. I know it's not "simple" or "easy," but it is realistic.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

To me that's a double negative.

If all of a sudden all of CoH's (blue side) content was now able to be played by villains, it would indeed unlock more content for my villain.


Again just because it's not "villainous" enough doesn't mean it's not content that villains can play.


Content is content whether a person likes the story behind it or not (to me). If I don't like Darrin Wade's arcs because they're evil (most of his missions are)...does that mean that's not content (something to do) for my villain? No...

That's precisely the point you're missing. We're not asking for "content for my villains," we're asking specifically for "villainous" content which not all "content for my villain" is. This isn't a question about quantity, it's a question about theme. That's not the same thing.

Let me put this into perspective. Suppose I just watched Aliens and I really really liked it. I told you "Hey, I have another couple of hours before I need to get ready for work and I'd like to watch another movie. I really liked Aliens, can you give me another one like it?" In response, you hand me of The Princess Diaries, insisting that "It's still a movie, right?" Well, it is a movie that I can watch, but it's not a movie that's like Aliens, now is it?

The Techbot clearly explained what he saw as villainous content - stuff like Dean McArthur and Leonard. He didn't ask for more content, any content whatsoever that his villains can run. He ask for a specific kind of content that fits the theme of the game it's introduced into. And he's hardly the only one who wants that.

The simple fact of the matter is villains have enough content. They've had enough content since Experience Smoothing. What villains need isn't more quantity, it's more quality, and masquerading hero content offers quantity and quantity alone.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.