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Best TF summary ever
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
"Go rescue kidnapped guy!...No, wait, not that kidnapped guy...no, not that one either...no, wait, which one? I dunno. Go rescue that kidnapped guy so we can figure out which kidnapped guy we're supposed to rescue...Okay, it's that kidnapped guy but I have no freaking clue where who kidnapped him, so go beat people up until we figure out who actually kidnapped kidnapped guy...oh, but he was dead all along, not kidnapped, silly me, uh, go fight an AV, I guess."
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Ohh another thread about task forces..
Okay let's start with Synapse... The only thing that needs to happen to make this a better tf is 1) loose half the defeat alls or at least turn them into defeat leader and minons. 2) loose the street hunt and one or both of the patrols. Now that said this thing can still be accomlished in 2 hours or less ... If you want true pain go to the Ouroborus portal and run the OLD Positiron and so you get the true feel for what it was like years ago... don't use any travel powers before reaching level 14. And I mean NO travel powers .. when that tf came out there was no beast run, no ninja run, no raptor pack or anything else. It used to be the second longest TF in game and just like Doc Q there were times when teams would go to bed and come back the next night to finish it! YES I AM THAT OLD lol
Okay then on to my next pick for a revamp.. (sorry its not Citadel) Numina! Take away the mind numbing runs around all of Paragon City defeating 10, 20 or 30 enemies that until the very end are so low they offer up absolutely no XP at all and what is left is a total of five actual missions and one talk to mission. The entire TF is "supposed" to revolve around Devouring Earth and our attempt to rescue the Woodsman from them. Two of those 5 missions actually have DE in them and those are the final ones. 1) loose all the defeat X missions .. why? Because no one enjoys doing that many street hunts and with the Zone events we have now an entire TF team can wind up sitting around for X numer of minutes while THE RIKTI INVADE, ZOMBIES ATTACK, NEMESIS ATTACKS, THE BANNERS ARE UP. I personally was on one Numina that got held up twice .. A Rikti invasion in Talos spawned by, of course the completion of a LGFT and a Zombie invasion in Faultline spawned by someone turning in Halloween salvage. 2) then revamp the Tf so its similar to Penny Yins .. a few longer missions set in Eden or even in the Hive revolving around the DE capturing the Woodsman and us eventually rescuing him.
Citadel.. believe it or not has been revamped. At one point there were three straight missions that occurred in same cave under the bridge in IP. They all three used the exact same map and the only difference was one had you battle Vamprii and Warwolves, another Galaxy and some normal troop and a third just normal looking troops. [don't quote me on the exact villain groups that has been a long time ago but it was something like that]. Citadel isnt that bad really .. I've been on plenty of teams that complete it in under 90 minutes. One thing they could definately loose is the street hunt .. since the return of the Fifth Column finding 40 Council anywhere on the streets has become more difficlut. Half the places they used to be now have Fifth Column instead and in some places you find both and have to battle the fifth column to kill the concil before they do.
Change is good but keep in mind there are players out there that farm TFs for merits. Every time the revamp and make thing easier the merit total drops... The OLD POSI awarded 66 merits while the new Posi 1 and 2 combined only awards 26. Sister Psyche awarded 50 merits while Penny Yin's Tf only pays out 20. Your done faster but now you need to do more to wind up with the same amount of rewards.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
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But are merit rewards even that relevant? With the advent of alignment merits it's really not hard to nab recipes for considerably less work. The only thing I seem to use merit rewards for now is enhancement converters, otherwise I'll hit fort trident/the crucible or just the auctionhouse.
Honestly I feel the merit reward prices for recipes needs to drop like 30% all around.
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Merits are very useful for Rogues and Vigilantes, and I assume for non-VIPs who can use recipes as well. And I use them all the time -- to convert into alignment merits, I'll admit. But hey, there are lots more ways to earn merits than alignment merits. |
Originally Posted by Agent White
But are merit rewards even that relevant? With the advent of alignment merits it's really not hard to nab recipes for considerably less work. The only thing I seem to use merit rewards for now is enhancement converters, otherwise I'll hit fort trident/the crucible or just the auctionhouse.
Honestly I feel the merit reward prices for recipes needs to drop like 30% all around. |
But yeah, stuff is pretty expensive if you're trying to buy them with straight merits.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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This assumes an optimized run- I had the misfortune of doing this one recently, and it was a grind that timed out closer to two hours than one.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I respectfully disagree, sir.
I concede that it is similar to running a string of random newspaper missions. I concede that it takes longer, but a little over an hour is reasonable for a task force. |
For a non- PUG that more or less knew what to expect, I can see it being fairly quick. For us, it wasn't.
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I concede that it requires leaving the zone, but I do not see that as being an issue in a task force, especially for characters of that level. I concede that it includes a number of street hunts, I believe that number is 1. I further concede that "fun" is a subset of "less awful" compared to things that are not fun. But I return to my main point that it is fun. |
I used to really love running around in Dark Astoria blowing up huge spawns of zombies with my fire blaster, so I don't judge.
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| I enjoy running a string of random newspaper missions on a team. I suspect that a large number of players do as well, since I join them in teams doing it. |
Not that people aren't having fun with it, but I doubt anyone wakes up in the morning positively elated by the prospect of running newspapers.
It's a convenient way to rack up a lot of rewards quickly- no zoning, no visiting your contact, predictable and to some extent selectable enemies (if you get a crappy draw, just abandon the mish and try again), controllable travel time (again, if you get one in the middle of nowhere, abandon and re-select)....it's a nice, straightforward way to run with a big team that doesn't require any real commitment from anyone. Most paper teams I catch on with are in a state of constant flux- people drop out after almost every mission, others replace them.
In entertainment terms newspaper missions are like the neighborhood bar- you drop in, have a drink, chat with some people, and take off whenever you like. A TF is more like attending an opera recital- once seated, you're in for the duration and can't leave without attracting the scorn of your fellows.
I hold that the greater commitment of the TF should be held to a higher standard of gameplay than that of a random newspaper team, and judge them accordingly.
Of the stuff I've run over the last few months, Penny Yin was a lot of fun. Both Positrons are a lot of fun. Silver Mantis was fun, even though our team was underpowered and we had the difficulty up way too high.
Manticore?
ZZzzzzzzzzzz.
Bastion/Citadel?
ZZZzzzzzzzzzz.
Synapse?
UGH ZZzzzzzzz.
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I therefore put it to you, sir - are you saying that doing a string of random newspaper missions for an hour is not fun? are you saying that having to switch zones eliminates the fun? are you saying that having to defeat 25 Crey in a zone is not fun and eliminates the fun? |
It's one type of 'fun', the fun of getting rewards efficiently.
Switching zones for a good reason can work, but the way its generally deployed in the older TFs is pure time wasting filler.
And yes, I'm saying street hunts are basically pointless and not fun, all the more so when they require visiting an out-of-the-way location. Again, pure time wasting filler.
The exception is the sort of interactive 'hunt' as seen in the Habashy arc in Atlas- there are a couple of missions that are basically go. hunt. kill hellions., but the hunts have a visible impact on the zone and so don't feel pointless in the same way as the older "go beat up XXX until one of them tells you where XXXX is hidden!" hunts do.
I just think TF content should deliver a generally better gaming experience than running random repeatable missions.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Definitely this.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I just think TF content should deliver a generally better gaming experience than running random repeatable missions.
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TFs and SFs should be jewels of the CoH PvE experience, and a place for the writers and mission designers to show off their best work.
...And I'm still waiting for the Faultline trial. Silly Devs, you didn't think half a dozen years or so would make me forget about the trial that never was, did you?
"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend
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Which is by and large what they've done with the newer stuff- I haven't played everything, but of the more recent TFs I have played all were well written, mechanically interesting, exciting, engaging content that showed the game in its best light.|
Originally Posted by _Toxa_
Definitely this.
TFs and SFs should be jewels of the CoH PvE experience, and a place for the writers and mission designers to show off their best work. |
Also, not really blaming the current team for the general wretchedness of the 'original' TFs, just noting that IMHO all of them answer the question is this measurably better than running random repeatable content? with a resounding NO.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I get your point... Manticore is nothing to write home about. But what I love about TFs is bringing a team together for a series of missions with an end goal in mind, and you're not having people leave after every mission and having to reform the team. It has a very different feel from any normal string of missions in that respect.
Plus, you get a badge and merits. Most people I know run TFs for those reasons. And a good team can zip through Manticore in 40 minutes. 34 merits in 40 minutes, well worth your time.
But yeah... interesting it's not.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Originally Posted by Organica
I get your point... Manticore is nothing to write home about. But what I love about TFs is bringing a team together for a series of missions with an end goal in mind, and you're not having people leave after every mission and having to reform the team. It has a very different feel from any normal string of missions in that respect.
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I find that arcs and missions that attempt to tell stories are just annoying on teams. Clicking 5 glowies on a mission is something to do, but the team doesn't want to stop and read clues.
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I don't think it's too much to ask that that end goal is something more meaningful than "LOLHopkins".
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Originally Posted by Organica
I get your point... Manticore is nothing to write home about. But what I love about TFs is bringing a team together for a series of missions with an end goal in mind, and you're not having people leave after every mission and having to reform the team. It has a very different feel from any normal string of missions in that respect.
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the end goal is Task Force Commander
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
I don't think it's too much to ask that that end goal is something more meaningful than "LOLHopkins".
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Hopkins is by far the least threatening AV in the game. Unless you count the hellion AV in DfB.
I like to call him "Suit Guy".
But that doesn't mean Vandal, for example, terrifies anyone either.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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That doesn't mean the journey has to be mediocre or unfun.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
the end goal is Task Force Commander
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I didn't notice anything like this on Yin or Positron.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
This
I find that arcs and missions that attempt to tell stories are just annoying on teams. Clicking 5 glowies on a mission is something to do, but the team doesn't want to stop and read clues. |
In my experience the newer TFs deliver engaging gameplay and give the *sense* of a story to players who care to pay attention without having it get in the way of busting heads.
I wouldn't appreciate a TF that replicated, say, the Twinshot arc, where most of the "action" takes place in character dialog boxes.
But that's not what the newer TFs do.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
the end goal is Task Force Commander
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by GadgetDon
Numina needs a complete rewrite of the TF. It was created to be a "grand farewell tour" of all the zones that existed in the then-gameworld when you hit level cap at 40. Now, not only is the level cap higher, zones have been repurposed and just removed from the hunt.
The only think I like about Numina conceptually is a very superhero group comic concept - "Bad things are happening all over the city, You two, go there. You two, go there, you two, come with me". That's proven difficult/impossible to do with the current game engine, which is a pity. And the concept isn't worth the obsolete time-wasting hunt. So forget the various group red herrings. This is the Devouring Earth task force. Two or three missions piecing together the plot, one mission to almost stop the devouring earth, and the finale. Synapse and Citadel - would love to see a complete rewrite of them, but simple blue pencil work would make them far better. "There are three missions where the players do the same damn thing in a row. Cut it to one mission. These missions are defeat all without any story reason, make them final goal only. This mission does have a story reason, make it a smallish map." As for Manticore - I enjoy it mechanically, but yeah, it's kind of a weak story. The problem is that it's 30-35, and 40-45 is where Crey is completely exposed as yup, corrupt from the top down, and you take down the countess. If the Manticore TF proves the Countess is a crook and locks her up, the arc 10 levels later becomes anti-climatic. So for a story instead, make it one of the "crey scientists get in over their head." They've been playing with arraknoid DNA and working on improving cloning techniques (never revealed in the TF what the cloning might be used for), create a monster that must be stopped - and once it's down, Hopkins shows up, "You've saved the world, 'heroes', but nobody can know what happened here." |
I'll agree with every said/quoted here.
Numina is annoyingly-bad because of the hunts (especially a few of them like the Baumtown hunt because of the 5th Column and Council killing each other; taking your kills away
).Synapse is bad because of the defeat alls.
Citadel is bad because of the defeat alls along with the "hey we just did this" feeling.
Manticore is decent game play wise...the story is boring though. Like others have said, "we beat up the bodyguard of Crey!....hooray!... >_>"
Then we have all of the Shadow Shard TFs....those definitely need to be scaled down (from 10000 defeat all and hunt missions to just like, oh I don't know....1 or 2
).
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Numina's TF:....
"Go rescue kidnapped guy!...No, wait, not that kidnapped guy...no, not that one either...no, wait, which one? I dunno. Go rescue that kidnapped guy so we can figure out which kidnapped guy we're supposed to rescue...Okay, it's that kidnapped guy but I have no freaking clue where who kidnapped him, so go beat people up until we figure out who actually kidnapped kidnapped guy...oh, but he was dead all along, not kidnapped, silly me, uh, go fight an AV, I guess." |
haha spot on.
Although to be honest, I've never really read the Numina's TF "story"....but that seems spot on
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The worst part is, most of the Shard TFs actually have a pretty cool story it's just the long mission list that makes them annoying.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Then we have all of the Shadow Shard TFs....those definitely need to be scaled down (from 10000 defeat all and hunt missions to just like, oh I don't know....1 or 2
). |
Take Faathim the Kind. The basic plot that there are 5 different villain groups fighting to try and gain control of the Storm Palace is a pretty interesting setup. The problem is that this requires nine separate door missions (plus the three kill alls to "prove yourself") to get the seven keys needed to stop them.
If I were redoing it I'd probably do it something like this:
Mission 1: Faathim tells you that you must prove yourself by clearing a cave of Rularuu. The "door' for this mission is a portal inside his death star thingy. This is a pretty standard cave map full of Rularuu. After completing this he gives you a small crystal that will allow him to communicate telepathically with you (i.e. his cell phone).
Mission 2: Ok, this mission is going to be the meat of the TF, it's a huge map with several stages and a bunch of AVs.
Faathim tells you that several forces are fighting to control the master of the Storm Palace and that you must prevent them from doing so and instead use the keys yourself to enter the Storm Palace and confront Lanaru.
The door for this mission is a either the Hortha vine leading from the Chantry to the Storm Palace or a nearby glowie teleport thing if that can't be done. The mission map itself is a reconstruction of the Storm Palace zone complete with gravity geysers (possibly split into multiple sub-maps if necessary due to size, if this is done the gravity geysers could function as "doors" moving you between map sections).
When you zone into the map you're greeted by General Hammond who has established a fire base and field hospital to help you out. He gives you a little pep talk to assure you that his men will help hold the areas you clear (ideally as you clear the monuments his party moves up lagging about one monument behind you, if not maybe put a teleporter at the hospital in the style of the Underground Trial).
The basic goal of the mission is to travel to each of the seven monuments in the Storm Palace, defeat the AV guarding it to get the key and then activate it. The areas in between the monuments will have some additional enemies. In general the areas between two monuments will consist of either forces loyal to the AVs at each monument or alternatively combats between two different forces, i.e. if Nemesis is at the Monument of Torment and Mother Mayhem is at the Monument of Malice then the area in between would have a mixture of IDF and Nemesis Soldiers with some groups fighting each other.
The Monuments and AVs in order would be:
Monument of Anger: Preatorian IDF with Malaise as the AV
Monument of Malice: Preatorian IDF with Mother Mayhem as the AV
Monument of Torment: Nemesis with the "Nemesis?" Archvillain
Monument of Hatred: Nemesis with the "Nemesis?" Archvillain (yes, you'd fight him twice. Why? Because it's funny)
Monument of Fury: Rikti with Hro'Dtohz as the AV
Monument of Destruction: When you arrive here there is no AV but there is a group of Malta fighting the Rikti. Faathim contacts you telepathically and tells you that the Malta have recovered the key and retreated to Paragon City, however he can track them and will open a portal for you. The portal takes you to a small Malta Base style map where you find and defeat a Malta AV (either a new one or possibly a Kronos Titan if a suitable outdoors map style is used) to recover the key and then return to the main map to use it.
Monument of Madness: Once again you are to late finding only a group of Circle of Thorns guarding the Monument. Faathim again opens a portal to a graveyard in Paragon City where you defeat Baphomet to recover the last key.
Activating the final monument completes the mission. Exiting the mission on completion places you in the Storm Palace near the overland Monument of Madness.
Mission 3: Faathim now tells you that the time has come to confront Lanaru the Mad. This mission is essentially identical to the final mission of the current TF. Go to the big room, fight the giant AV. Have tea and crumpets.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The worst part is, most of the Shard TFs actually have a pretty cool story it's just the long mission list that makes them annoying.
Take Faathim the Kind. The basic plot that there are 5 different villain groups fighting to try and gain control of the Storm Palace is a pretty interesting setup. The problem is that this requires nine separate door missions (plus the three kill alls to "prove yourself") to get the seven keys needed to stop them. If I were redoing it I'd probably do it something like this: .... |
Again I haven't really read the stories behind the Shadow Shard TFs but I did (and do) like them overall (just hate the grinding of the TFs as well as the no cell phone thing...).
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
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I want this. So bad.
Also, I would love to see your version of Dr. Q.
*popcorn*
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
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Hmmmmm…. Dr. Q is a bit trickier. Unlike Faathim he doesn’t have any cool locations or fights built in so there isn’t a lot to build on. The basic premise that Crey and Nemesis are setting up illicit portals to access Firebase Zulu is sound but lacking in hooks for fun fights. That being said I think you could build something from it using the premise that the easiest way to find where a portal comes out is to step through it and hope for the best. With that in mind here is what I would do:|
Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
Also, I would love to see your version of Dr. Q.
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Mission 1: Dr. Q tells that an exploration team has gone missing. Tracking devices in their equipment has allowed them to be traced but he needs you to rescue them and find out who kidnapped them.
This is a relatively simple hostage rescue/boss fight mission taking place in one of the standard Shadow Shard caves against Crey.
Mission 2: Dr. Q is concerned that Crey have apparently set up an illicit portal into the Shadow Shard and explains that it needs to be shut down immediately. Thanks to an interrogation of the boss you captured in the first mission and tracking the retreating Crey forces he has a good idea of where the Shadow Shard end of it is. The problem is that the portal in Paragon City really needs to be shut down as well and he has no clue where that would be.
Therefore he asks you to go to the location of the Shadow Shard end of the portal, place some explosives to blow it up and then enter the portal to find its location in Paragon City. Once you’re through he’ll remote detonate the explosives to avoid you getting trapped between two Crey Forces.
The first part of this mission takes place in a standard Shadow Shard cave map except that the final room features a large portal (and some cool looking equipment). Once you use all of the bomb glowies you are able to step through the portal and emerge in a largish Crey Labs style map. An alarm goes off, your presence has been detected and a security lockdown is in effect.
The second part of this mission is longer and has a number of goals. The characters have to:
- Place explosives to destroy the main portal
- Search several computer databases to find out where Crey got the portal technology from (a clue from one will reveal that they got it from Nemesis)
- Destroy a LOT of equipment for supporting portal generation (you don’t have to destroy everything, there are more destroyable objects than you need but they are all weak objects you can pretty much single shot)
- Defeat a number of named bosses to get the codes necessary to pass through the security doors and out of the base
Basically the idea is to have something that feels almost like a Mayhem mission (because Mayhem missions are FUN). You’ve entered this large base through what is effectively the back door and need to fight your way out. However in the process you need to blow up the equipment here to stop Crey recreating the portal. The map would be pretty linear so you shouldn’t need to double back. The ideal is that while you could stealth the mission, it’s more fun not to.
Eventually you reach the exit and emerge in Founder’s Falls.
Mission 3: You call Dr. Q who is concerned about the fact that Nemesis apparently also has portal technology. He asks you to talk to Maxwell Christopher who directs you to a Nemesis Army base here in Founder’s Falls.
This is basically a standard glowie hunt and boss kill mission which gets you the location of the Nemesis Army portal in Paragon City…
Mission 4: You’ve located the Nemesis Portal in Paragon City but unfortunately Dr. Q has been unable to locate the paired portal in Fire Base Zulu so it’s time to go portal diving again.
This mission is basically Mission 2 in reverse. You are fighting your way through a base full of Nemesis (Automatons near the entrance and Nemesis Army deeper in) in order to get to the portal and jump through it. The base has lots of nice shiny equipment to destroy (can you tell I like Mayhem missions?) and various bosses who need to be defeated before you can progress deeper.
Eventually you jump through the portal, detonate the explosives on both sides and reemerge in FBZ.
Mission 5: You check in with Dr. Q who needs one more thing from you. When you blew up the portals a bunch of Nemesis and Crey forces were left stranded in the Shadow Shard. They have teamed up and are attempting to capture Firebase Zulu itself so that they can get home. General Hammond’s forces are hard pressed and need support.
The map is a clone of Tempest Sector (the island just outside Firebase Zulu itself). You need to break the back of the Crey and Nemesis forces by defeating a number of them and killing their leaders (kind of like the last mission in the ITF). The Nemesis forces are lead by the “Nemesis?” AV while the Crey forces would need a new AV of some kind, probably a giant robot because why should Malta get all the cool toys?
Well, that’s how I’d do it. It would still be on the long side for the newer TFs (probably pushing 2 hours) but I think it could be made enjoyable enough to make it interesting. After all, how often do heroes really have the chance to actually destroy a villains base? I think the basic setup of one mission to find the base and one to destroy it would work well and doing it twice is enough to keep the basic plot without dragging to much. The fifth mission is not strictly necessary but I like it when TFs end with a good boss fight and this seems like a good way to fit one in as well as wrapping up some loose ends (specifically, what's to stop the Crey and Nemesis still in the Shadow Shard from building a new portal?).
Adeon, I endorse your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Also, I sincerely hope that your proposed rewrites spark some "oooh... good idea!" thoughts in the writing team's heads. Preferably before I get crazy enough to finish the Shard TFs I'm still missing.
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Neat ideas, Adeon. The one thing I'd suggest would be that the original Dr. Q ends with an explanation of why illegal Shadow Shard portals are a bad idea when a bunch of Soldiers of Rularuu break out. I feel like that should be tied into it somehow. But otherwise, let's start a campaign to get you on the writing team!
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Yeah it would be good to work that in there somehow. The thing is I wanted to avoid the whole running around Paragon shutting down dozens of portals that the original one had.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
The one thing I'd suggest would be that the original Dr. Q ends with an explanation of why illegal Shadow Shard portals are a bad idea when a bunch of Soldiers of Rularuu break out. I feel like that should be tied into it somehow.
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That being said... in Mission 4 you could have the back part of the Nemesis base overrun with Rularuu so you have to fight through them to get through the portal and then once you go through it fight through a few more to escape from the cave that it's located in.
That would help remind people that portals are a two-way street, especially if Dr. Q mentions it in his debrief for the mission ("Rularuu were breaking through? It's a good thing you got there when you did or they could have overrun the entirety of Founder's Falls").
Numina's TF needs to be revamped not just because it's gameplay is awful, but because its story is awful, and the gameplay is awful because of the awful story.
"Go rescue kidnapped guy!...No, wait, not that kidnapped guy...no, not that one either...no, wait, which one? I dunno. Go rescue that kidnapped guy so we can figure out which kidnapped guy we're supposed to rescue...Okay, it's that kidnapped guy but I have no freaking clue where who kidnapped him, so go beat people up until we figure out who actually kidnapped kidnapped guy...oh, but he was dead all along, not kidnapped, silly me, uh, go fight an AV, I guess."