Water Poison..bad synergy?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-07-11 04:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Is this really asking for help or just complaining?
If you're asking for help, then I say stick with it. An right foot radius is larger than claws' spin attack. I took a Beam/Poison up to 50, though, and I've got no regrets. Poison's debuffs are huge, especially when you stack the t9. The control that Water provides should bee a nice compliment to it.
Actually, I may reroll the beam to water. It would fit his concept better. Thanks for the idea!
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
It was more asking for opinions than help..since I have done poison as an MM. Then I was just complaining and saying what was annoying me..so far 
I will soldier on though..in between playing the water blaster I just made..damn alts.
Well, the t9 being a toggle makes a huge difference in my mind. Again, stick with it. At least you get a self heal in your primary.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
You've played Poison before as an MM and only realizing its disadvantages now?
I dunno, I'm loving my Water/Poison and think the synergy is just fine. Yes, the AoE range is narrow but very potent on your target. Yes, the heal is an ally-heal not a self-heal. Those are the disadvantages, now go enjoy the set! There's nice synergy with Water Blast in that Poison is full of AOE debuffs and -res to all types while Water Blast is full of AOE attacks and a good variety of typage (smashing, cold, fire) - not to mention their easy aesthetic liquid or water resemblance.
50s: Silent Spy - MA/Regen Scrapper | Tinkerhell - SS/Inv Brute | Extrasensory - Psi/Men Blaster | Ana Cruz - DP/PD Corruptor | Sara Thunderbird - Elec/Elec Scrapper | Pinstrike - Spines/SR Scrapper | Cold Feet - Cold/Cold Blaster
@Silent Spy, Champion Server
No I realise I was not that amazed by poison as an MM. But didnt really play it after the changes..mostly cause I was bitter about them not changing Noxious Gas.
Ok Silent, consider my chastened..I will play it!
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No, it's the same size as Spin. And Whirling Hands, Typhoon's Edge, Dragon's Tail, almost all of the damage auras, and so on. It's not larger, and while you aren't taking up part of that radius and could fit more mobs into it if they're already tightly packed, you also don't have the same freedom of placement when the mobs are spread out a bit like you do with a PBAoE.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
An right foot radius is larger than claws' spin attack.
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I personally thought that it would interfere more with the tidal forces mechanic by virtue of Poison being so click-heavy, and then went ahead and made a Water/Kin because Fulcrum Shift is worth it.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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My bad, I thought Spin was seven feet, smaller than the rest. There's a reason I was specific.
I didn't find poison to be all that clicky. Lay down debuffs, then refresh thirty seconds later. The BR redraw didn't bother me.
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I don't know how well they go together, but I know I've seen more /Poison Corruptors than I have in a longtime. Water Blast must be doing something right.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
In the current meta, numbers-wise, Water Blast is really good.
I rather suspect that the developers are aware of Water Blast's potential competition against existing blast sets where i24 is concerned. Whether they'll do anything about it is a question worth asking.
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I guess the issue for me was that I was soloing and couldn't debuff the whole spawn with just one click that I refresh later because of the size of the splash area - I had to use it repeatedly to hit everything and after the first use you have non-debuffed mobs attacking you.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My bad, I thought Spin was seven feet, smaller than the rest. There's a reason I was specific.
I didn't find poison to be all that clicky. Lay down debuffs, then refresh thirty seconds later. The BR redraw didn't bother me. |
With Rad the AoE on the toggle(s) usually covers everyone at 15', with Freezing Rain/Sleet the radius is 20' and the mobs are also flopping, Melt Armor matches Rad's 15' radius and Darkest Night/Anguishing Cry/Slowed Response are all 25'. It's much easier to catch everyone without having to aggro the mob in advance, even in the case of Pain's PBAoE if you have Superspeed and/or a stealth IO.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Eh, I just hit the boss or priority lt with debuffs, then the slow cone could nail everything to keep me safe. Minions didn't present enough threat to warrant multiple debuff applications.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I guess the issue for me was that I was soloing and couldn't debuff the whole spawn with just one click that I refresh later because of the size of the splash area - I had to use it repeatedly to hit everything and after the first use you have non-debuffed mobs attacking you.
With Rad the AoE on the toggle(s) usually covers everyone at 15', with Freezing Rain/Sleet the radius is 20' and the mobs are also flopping, Melt Armor matches Rad's 15' radius and Darkest Night/Anguishing Cry/Slowed Response are all 25'. It's much easier to catch everyone without having to aggro the mob in advance, even in the case of Pain's PBAoE if you have Superspeed and/or a stealth IO. |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Honestly, Accurate Def Debuff and Accurate ToHit Debuff sets are your friends. In the low levels just slot 2 Acc enhancements in Envenom and Weaken, and let them sit until you get IO's. Spread the love, too; if you debuff Mr. Boss, then debuff Mr. Minion next to him, Mr. Boss and Mr. Minion have both Primary Target and Splash Target debuffs on them. Defenses: shattered!|
Originally Posted by MisterD
I just made this..level 8 so far. And..I am already starting to see why I disliked poison. 8 ft radius, but 16 targets? Please..like you can even get 16 baddies in that space. And it can miss the other ones? For some reason I assumed..if you hit the main target, it auto splashed. But noooo.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Then I am wondering if an aoe set like WB..really needs an aoe debuffing set..since Poison isnt aoe (and the ST was still apparently pretty poor).. I was looking for something different but..
Somone convince me..either way |
Lay down Whirlpool. Spit out Neurotoxic Breath. Toggle up Venomous Gas and run in to the center of the super-slowed crowd, debuffing their Defense, Resistance, ToHit and Damage. Spit Envenom and Weaken here and there. If you're one of the crazies like me, you'll have taken Poison Trap; drop that and fumigate the place. Spit Envenom and Weaken. Jump back, Steam Spray, jump back in, Dehydrate for some heals. Target the center-most guy and hit Water Burst. Hit Tidal Forces and Geyser those mothers. Anything that survives that deserves some kind of award.
Water/Poison is so incredibly fun I took one from 1-41 on Test in 4 days. Solo.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
And also..WTF alkaloid? It is still the tier 1 power..so I HAVE to take it? Awesome..not. And I cant even use it on myself..out of all the target heal powers..I think this themeatically makes no sense whatsoever, Why cant I swallow it myself?
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EDIT: *looks at Dechs's signature*
.... DAMMIT.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
BOOM.
Headshot.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Remember that splashes from Poison only debuff at half the amount. The recharge is short on the two main debuffs so you can spam it on nearby enemies, so that they get debuffed 1 1/2 times, because the splash and single target hit do stack.
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Yes, and then it's really really clicky.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Remember that splashes from Poison only debuff at half the amount. The recharge is short on the two main debuffs so you can spam it on nearby enemies, so that they get debuffed 1 1/2 times, because the splash and single target hit do stack.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I just made one yesterday.
I'm too busy blasting, however envenom and weaken work just fine. I'll probably respec out of neurotoxic breath though. The set is weak for self defense like trick arrow.
If I didn't already have a time/ice defender I probably would have gone water/time. Ah well, I can always scrap and re-roll.
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It can be a bit clicky. But I'll say it hasn't really disrupted Tidal Forces build up. They stack for enough time where you can build 3 stacks of Tidal Power, launch a debuff, and release a power with full Tidal. Worst comes to worse, you'll drop down to 2 Tidal power a quick use of T1 or T2 Blast builds you back up to 3.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Yes, and then it's really really clicky.
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50s: Silent Spy - MA/Regen Scrapper | Tinkerhell - SS/Inv Brute | Extrasensory - Psi/Men Blaster | Ana Cruz - DP/PD Corruptor | Sara Thunderbird - Elec/Elec Scrapper | Pinstrike - Spines/SR Scrapper | Cold Feet - Cold/Cold Blaster
@Silent Spy, Champion Server
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Fair enough. I will admit that I didn't specifically try WB/Poison; I was just going by my experience with Poison before and other people's complaints on the beta forums about how quickly they were losing Tidal Power when playing less-clicky sets. I was planning on treating it the way you describe here with my Kinetic, and decided that even if I lose a level during Fulcrum Shift's animation it will still end up in my favor. I also figured that I'd be really annoyed at the clickiness when I wasn't one- or two-shotting everything. |
Originally Posted by SilentSpy
It can be a bit clicky. But I'll say it hasn't really disrupted Tidal Forces build up. They stack for enough time where you can build 3 stacks of Tidal Power, launch a debuff, and release a power with full Tidal. Worst comes to worse, you'll drop down to 2 Tidal power a quick use of T1 or T2 Blast builds you back up to 3.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
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I never understood this mentality.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Yes, and then it's really really clicky.
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Everything in this game is clicky. If you don't like clicky, roll a /WP Brute or use a keyboard. :P
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I do use the keyboard. And I have a (couple of) WP Brute(s), although I haven't played any in a while.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I never understood this mentality.
Everything in this game is clicky. If you don't like clicky, roll a /WP Brute or use a keyboard. :P |
It's not that I don't like activating powers - my Rad/Kin Corruptor is one that I consider the most fun, and it's a very clicky. But check my last response in this thread - if you're going to be someone chasing Tidal Power you may get annoyed when it's fading while you're busy clicking trying to refresh and/or max out your debuffs. It certainly happened enough in beta that those were the feedback posts I remember reading most after the "ooo pretty" ones.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
The mentality isn't neccesarily "I just want to sit back" but as the newer power sets have more and more focus-requiring mechanics, being too clicky could be a bad thing. Take a Beam Rifle/Time Manipulation Corruptor, for instance.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I never understood this mentality.
Everything in this game is clicky. If you don't like clicky, roll a /WP Brute or use a keyboard. :P |
Beam Rifle's big schtick is Disintegration, so you're using Disintegrate whenever its up and then your single-target powers to spread Disintegration, usually ending the chain with your AOEs once it has been spread.
Meanwhile, you're also using your Time powers which can also be clicky - especially if you go the route of Power Boost + perma-Farsight = godly defense buff, which normally involves perma-Hasten and perma-Chrono Shift that you all want to click back up as soon as they drop. Then also factor in that there is weapon redraw each time you switch from Time to Beam.
It gets complicated and frustrating! In the case of Water Blast, you don't want too intensive of a secondary that you'd be too busy using that to effectively build Tidal Power.
50s: Silent Spy - MA/Regen Scrapper | Tinkerhell - SS/Inv Brute | Extrasensory - Psi/Men Blaster | Ana Cruz - DP/PD Corruptor | Sara Thunderbird - Elec/Elec Scrapper | Pinstrike - Spines/SR Scrapper | Cold Feet - Cold/Cold Blaster
@Silent Spy, Champion Server
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Funny enough, I absolutely love Beam Time, my Beam/Time. I very much enjoy more 'active' blasting sets; older blast sets feel very... slow to throw, if that makes sense. I feel like I throw my AoEs and then that's it, ST damage is just for picking off stragglers and the AoE's take forever to recharge. Beam and Water are fast, fun, and have nice mechanics.
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Originally Posted by SilentSpy
The mentality isn't neccesarily "I just want to sit back" but as the newer power sets have more and more focus-requiring mechanics, being too clicky could be a bad thing. Take a Beam Rifle/Time Manipulation Corruptor, for instance.
Beam Rifle's big schtick is Disintegration, so you're using Disintegrate whenever its up and then your single-target powers to spread Disintegration, usually ending the chain with your AOEs once it has been spread. Meanwhile, you're also using your Time powers which can also be clicky - especially if you go the route of Power Boost + perma-Farsight = godly defense buff, which normally involves perma-Hasten and perma-Chrono Shift that you all want to click back up as soon as they drop. Then also factor in that there is weapon redraw each time you switch from Time to Beam. It gets complicated and frustrating! In the case of Water Blast, you don't want too intensive of a secondary that you'd be too busy using that to effectively build Tidal Power. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Its a different taste thing, for sure. I wanted to love Beam/Time, I just got too flustered trying to find a balance with both. I enjoy my Beam/Kin more, although it can just as intensive sometimes (especially in the earlier levels).
The mechanics to the new powersets can be great fun, they just often require you to do a balancing act with your other powerset and figure out what you can manage.
50s: Silent Spy - MA/Regen Scrapper | Tinkerhell - SS/Inv Brute | Extrasensory - Psi/Men Blaster | Ana Cruz - DP/PD Corruptor | Sara Thunderbird - Elec/Elec Scrapper | Pinstrike - Spines/SR Scrapper | Cold Feet - Cold/Cold Blaster
@Silent Spy, Champion Server
is the OP asking for the max number of enemies to be reduced in poison?
8 foot radius, maybe max 4 targets?
I just made this..level 8 so far. And..I am already starting to see why I disliked poison. 8 ft radius, but 16 targets? Please..like you can even get 16 baddies in that space. And it can miss the other ones? For some reason I assumed..if you hit the main target, it auto splashed. But noooo.
It's not that I am lazy when it comes to debuffing, or even playing. But having to use two powers with such a silly aoe (yeah its better than none..but not a lot)..
Then I am wondering if an aoe set like WB..really needs an aoe debuffing set..since Poison isnt aoe (and the ST was still apparently pretty poor).. I was looking for something different but..
I love storm..water storm?
Somone convince me..either way
And also..WTF alkaloid? It is still the tier 1 power..so I HAVE to take it? Awesome..not. And I cant even use it on myself..out of all the target heal powers..I think this themeatically makes no sense whatsoever, Why cant I swallow it myself?