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That's a nice sentiment and it's true in a lot of cases, especially from a broad perspective. But for fans of Electricity Blast, this has certainly not been the case. The ranged deficiencies of its non-existent attack chain, the beating it took when End Drain was hit, the inherent imbalance of the efficiency of the set when compared to the majority of others... These are all problems that have been pointed to a lot and never addressed.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Ultimately, a lot of people have come thinking they could fix the game with a magic wand, and ultimately all of them give up disappointed often having altered basically nothing of the game. The players that ultimately end up making a difference are not those that believe they can fix the game, but those that believe they can improve the game, and are willing to do so over the long haul.
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To be clear, I love how connected and responsive the devs have been to their fan base since the launch of this game overall, but there are some glaring issues of imbalance and failures of game mechanics that have gone on for years, giving people concerned about them no reason whatsoever to believe that they'll ever be addressed.
With regard to Electricity Blast, those issues may be relatively minor, all things considered, but they're made to appear worse and worse with the advent of new sets and changes to others. And with things like the broken melee pet AI that have been big issues forever, one starts to wonder if the devs have just given up on certain things.
And I get that balance is subjective and that certain things can be explained away thematically, but certain things are just obvious. If other sets get 60% more ranged attacks AND faster recharge times, that is not balance. And if the upcoming slate of changes improve performance evenly for most sets but more for a handful, the sets receiving more love SHOULD NOT BE THE ONES THAT ARE ALREADY PERFORMING THE BEST IN THIS AREA. It should be the ones performing the worst.
In other words, it could easily be argued that sets like Fire and Water should benefit the least from these changes, or not at all. But not only are they benefiting from these changes, they're benefiting MORE than the sets that have fewer ranged options AND slower recharge times.
So it's taking the existing imbalance and making it worse.
Look at my Water vs. Electricity scenarios above. After the proposed changes, a level 20 Water Blaster will have their heaviest-hitting ST attack double in range, making it wildly effective and much safer to use. A level 20 Electricity Blaster could see no improvement at all. Yes, his snipe might be able to be used mid-fight under certain circumstances or in accordance with at least one other power, or as a result of a very specific build. To see that benefit all the time or most of the time, he's locked into making certain power, slotting, and enhancement choices.
Water gets a huge performance bump with zero consideration of any of the above.
Fire, Energy, and other sets will get the same bump Water did, PLUS the same bump Electricity gets, on top of already having more ranged powers to choose from and more efficient recharge times.
So the worst-performing sets benefit the least. Does that feel like balance to you?
And the "Well go play another set instead" argument gets old, too. "If you want X, Y, and Z go play the sets that have X, Y, and Z." This set should stay functionally inefficient and less attractive to players... why, exactly?
Global @Watchdog
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Right, so we're now relying on 4 quick buffs/casts every minute or so: VS, Aim, Buildup, and now Clap.| The majority of Blasters are relying on using Aim and Build Up every 45 seconds to maximize their damage. |
Imagine a superhero movie...
HeroGuy walks into a CoH warehouse. He does his little wavy-arm thing to summon Voltaic Sentinel. He walks around the corner and spots the first group of enemies. He does the Aim animation. He does the Buildup animation. He does the Lightning Clap animation. All 3 in a row, before he engages anyone.
Now imagine that from the beginning of that mission to the end, he stops roughly every 45 seconds to do ALL of those 4 animations over and over and over again, in AND out of battle.
Question: Does this make him appear more like a superhero or a spastic with SEVERE, uncontrollable ticks?
Global @Watchdog
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A game does not equal a movie. Self buff rotations are common in most MMOs. CoH is actually quite mild compared to some and has plenty of options for people who dislike click buffs.|
Originally Posted by Watchdog
HeroGuy walks into a CoH warehouse. He does his little wavy-arm thing to summon Voltaic Sentinel. He walks around the corner and spots the first group of enemies. He does the Aim animation. He does the Buildup animation. He does the Lightning Clap animation. All 3 in a row, before he engages anyone.
Now imagine that from the beginning of that mission to the end, he stops roughly every 45 seconds to do ALL of those 4 animations over and over and over again, in AND out of battle. |
Realistically even with the I24 changes an Elec/Elec Blaster is no worse off than a */Regen Scrapper (3 defensive clicks and BU), or an Empathy Defender (only three regular buffs but about the same clicks per minute). Heck even on my Devices Blaster I'll drop Caltrops, lob a Smoke Grenade and summon a Gun Drone before most fights when I'm solo.
So yeah I don't really feel much sympathy for you. There are people who like melee characters but can't stand to play Regeneration because it's so clicky while other people hate Willpower because it's so boring. Come I24 I'm sure a lot of Blaster players will end up the same way. Some of them will love Electrical and Energy Manipulation because they find a good self-buff rotation extremely enjoyable. Others will gravitate towards Devices, Fire or Ice which are more dependent on toggles.
In general having different game-play styles amongst different sets is a good thing for the game since it broadens the appeal. Some people like very clicky sets and some people don't so the game provides options for both groups. Yes, it does suck for people like you who want to use a character concept where they don't care for the play-style of the associated set but given the choice between variety in sets or homogeneous sets that are all basically the same with different graphics I'll take variety any time.
The set actually does get fixed in I24
You just have to take energy manipulation to enjoy the fix. Thunderous blast will be available every spawn. Combine it with power boost and it will not only drain everything's endurance but also leave them unable to recover. There you go AOE control that will even stop bosses dead in their tracks and likely killed just about everything anyway.
Unfortunately in I24 if you're Electrical blast and not Energy Manipulation you're doing it wrong. Matter of fact in I24 it's for most primaries it looks like if you aren't Energy Manipulation you are doing it wrong.
Crashless Nukes + Power Boost = Insanely overpowered secondary effects.
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I assume that's a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway. First, no change benefits everyone perfectly equally. So if you want to attack the ranged set changes as being imbalanced because they don't instantly rebalance every set they touch in the manner you want, you're simply asking too much from a set of cross-powerset changes.|
Originally Posted by Watchdog
So the worst-performing sets benefit the least. Does that feel like balance to you?
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Second, its easy to characterize changes. You characterize the ranged changes as being highly disadvantageous to Electric Blast compared to other ranged sets. You even mention Energy Blast. Here's an alternate take on that comparison:
1. Power Burst is an attack I don't even take, because its DPA is only trivially higher than Power Blast and Power Blast can be used while mezzed. Increasing its range has extremely limited benefit unless you're taking the power already.
2. I might take the power anyway if I didn't have an ultrahigh recharge build, so theoretically speaking the average player would find significant benefit from that. Except those players now have a much better alternative: they can take snipe. In most cases, playing Energy/Anything will be able to have fast snipe a very high percentage of the time if they take tactics and Kismet. And the snipe doesn't have to be perma fast to be better than Power Burst.
3. So both Electric and Energy get the same fast snipe benefit. Energy gets an extra benefit of having an attack that is questionable to take except as a filler have longer range. At best, that's a trivial benefit compared to the fast snipe.
4. Both get non-crashing nukes in I24. Energy will get the faster recharging one, but Electric is effectively getting a massive ranged AoE that doesn't crash. Even accounting for the slightly longer recharge, that's a significantly better benefit. Electric also now has a much more effective drain to stack with other Electric drains and can do so at range. Nova's knockback might be effective, but it requires exposing yourself to point blank range for its cast time.
Arguably, at worst the two sets are benefiting roughly the same: energy is getting a dubious attack slightly better, while electric is getting a better nuke improved. On top of that the devs have said they were also looking at making other improvements to Electric, such as to Voltaic Sentinel.
The truth is that both are getting the same snipe benefit, both are getting an analogous nuke benefit, and energy is getting a range-equalization change that electric doesn't need. Anything else is spin.
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Addressing this point separately, Electric blast hasn't always been perceived as "functionally inefficient and less attractive." But tell me: if electric has been ignored specifically all these years, then which blaster primaries and secondaries haven't been ignored?|
Originally Posted by Watchdog
This set should stay functionally inefficient and less attractive to players... why, exactly?
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Electric hasn't been singled out: Blasters and Blaster sets have, until recently. A fact I've been mentioning off and on and more or less continuously since the beginning of the year when I said I would make it a priority to bug the devs about Blasters until they got serious attention. I think I24 is a pretty good start. Does it fix everything? I'm not even sure its supposed to "fix" *anything*. Rather, its supposed to make snipes more attractive, its supposed to normalize blaster range, and its supposed to make nukes functional in continuous combat. It fixes those powers globally, but that may not "fix" any one particular set specifically, for some definition of broken.
But while the devs are in fact paying attention to Blasters, and to ranged sets in general, there's going to be more opportunities to get things fixed. My original point still stands: you can get frustrated and give up, or you can be in it for the long haul. The opportunity has arisen to reexamine and address many blaster issues directly or indirectly. Its still going to be a process, that process will occur over time, and their priorities won't necessarily be yours. You might think Electric Blast is the most needy powerset demanding attention. Maybe it is. Maybe its not. Honestly, at this point among Blaster primaries it would probably get my vote, primarily in terms of addressing drain mechanics. But you can work within the system available to get them the attention they generally deserve, or you can spend time wondering why the devs don't see the game exactly like you do.
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I don't want the set to play differently. I love its versatility and, like you, enjoy the different playstyles that each set allows. I'm not talking about a thematic change to ELB or the way it plays. I'm talking about having a better ranged attack chain. Nothing else has to change -- just give me a ranged chain that doesn't suck. Doing so would add more versatility to the set, as we could choose the power we want or need versus having to choose whichever attack recharges next.
Also, the clicky nature of blaster buffs isn't the same as the sets you compare it to. A regen Scrapper doesn't have to click a buff or heal every 30 seconds. Those buffs/heals are needed much less often in general, and arguably even less in most team environments and situations.
For Empathy Defenders, at least what they're doing fits thematically with their powers and roles, and they can deploy their buffs the same way they do their AoE heal (as opposed to the bad/micromanaging Defenders that insist everyone "Gather for buffs!" all the time). The mechanic of their buffs is identical to deployment of their most-used heal. It's not the same thing.
With Blasters, it's non-stop silly animations all the time, now with the random clap thrown in to make it even sillier. And none of it makes sense, and none of it fits into the playstyle of a blaster.
And lastly, I'm not asking for sympathy. All I want is another attack that doesn't have any silly prerequisites for its use or require that I burn power choices and slots to use regularly.
Just one attack. In lieu of that, yes, I have other ideas that apparently rub you all kinds of wrong. But let's not pretend that I'm asking for a total reworking of how this set works or plays. My suggestion is FAR less complicated than yours, in fact.
Convert Zapp to a Tier 3 attack, and MAYBE streamline recharge times for the chain to make it a bit more dynamic and tactical.
I'd settle for just the attack. That's it. That would make me happy.
What you suggest is far more complicated. I really like your ideas and would definitely prefer Charge Up to the current Aim/Buildup approach, but there's no question that this would require far more work for the devs than what I suggested. Mine is just re-jiggering one power and maybe revisiting the RECH/DMG/END balance of the chain to make it a bit more palatable.
How many people who play this set regularly wouldn't drop the snipe for a Tier 3? Especially given the unnecessary complexities of the upcoming snipe changes...
I don't see that that would make the set any less fun or unique -- a snipe is just as common as a tier 3, isn't it?
Global @Watchdog
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Yes you do. It is currently weak when it comes to making a solely ranged chain, instead having a pet and a PBAoE attack. You want to change that. You want Electric to play different than it currently does. Own it and move on.
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Originally Posted by Watchdog
I don't want the set to play differently.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I don't think it's been specifically ignored. This is a thread about Electric, so I'm arguing from the perspective of someone playing this particular set. If this was a thread about another Blaster set that could use some individual attention, I would have different suggestions with the same goal in mind -- addressing unnecessary weaknesses.| But tell me: if electric has been ignored specifically all these years, then which blaster primaries and secondaries haven't been ignored? |
The thing about Electric that always frustrated me was the lack of a decent ranged attack chain, so that's what my suggestions are aimed at. There might be other ideas that accomplish the same result, but the proposed change to snipes or changes to powers that don't affect the ranged chain (SC, VS), don't cut it for me.
"Blaster Changes Don't Fix Electric" seemed like a good place to talk about the things Electric needs that aren't included in the upcoming blaster changes.
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1. Power Burst is an attack I don't even take, because its DPA is only trivially higher than Power Blast and Power Blast can be used while mezzed. Increasing its range has extremely limited benefit unless you're taking the power already. 2. I might take the power anyway if I didn't have an ultrahigh recharge build |
You're right about its comparison to Power Blast. But you know what's cool? Having 2 powers like that to compare to each other, that you can use back-to-back to blow stuff up. Does it matter to me that the DPA of one is less efficient than the other? No, because it's another attack in my chain that makes me that much more free to choose the power I want to use next or NEED to use next.
NOT having a decent attack chain means I don't even have the choice. I'm just stuck recycling the same busted chain over and over.
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| In most cases, playing Energy/Anything will be able to have fast snipe a very high percentage of the time if they take tactics and Kismet. |
I totally see what you're saying and don't disagree, but think of the lower level blasters. They count, too. The game is not and should not be balanced around the powers and builds and slots that you MIGHT have late in the game. Think of the new player or, God forbid, any player that decides to play through the game as intended instead of powerleveling to 50. An endurance-heavy toggle is a big deal to those players. New players have very little hope of even understanding how to get the most out of their post-i24 snipe.
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| And the snipe doesn't have to be perma fast to be better than Power Burst. |
There are blaster sets that do not have that choice. And that would be okay if the choices they DID have resulted in a good ranged attack chain. Electricity has neither.
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| Energy gets an extra benefit of having an attack that is questionable to take except as a filler |
And I'm also betting that many of the people that have skipped Tier 3's will go back and pick them up once their range is extended to 80ft. With super-high recharge and little concern for endurance late in the game, I think a lot of the people looking to drop a post-i24 ranged attack (and I still doubt that number is huge) would be just as likely to drop their Tier 1 blast than their Tier 3. Still, I think most would take them all and get full-on blast-happy.
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| I think I24 is a pretty good start. Does it fix everything? I'm not even sure its supposed to "fix" *anything*. Rather, its supposed to make snipes more attractive, its supposed to normalize blaster range, and its supposed to make nukes functional in continuous combat. It fixes those powers globally, but that may not "fix" any one particular set specifically, for some definition of broken. |
I agree with you on the snipe change and it's potential upside. But I loathe the mechanics of the change and think it will be misunderstood/off-putting to newer players and players that don't focus on the numbers-side of the game or obsess over the nitty-gritty specifics of their builds.
I say just make it an 80ft blast. I don't care if it's classified as a Tier 3 or something more akin to whatever the hell Dehydrate is supposed to be. That's how I feel from an ELB perspective.
In general, I still say drop snipes altogether and retool/replace them with something each set that has one needs. ELB needs another attack. For Energy and Fire it could be something else entirely to make them more unique. Or heck, maybe it IS another attack. I don't care if their chain is better than ELB's as long as ELB's is good. Right now it's NOT good. CB/LB/BL is a crappy ranged chain and you can't fix that by tweaking Short Circuit or Voltaic Sentinel.
Those powers may need some love, too, but it doesn't fix ELB's substandard ranged chain.
Global @Watchdog
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I do not want that. The changes that the devs are making are doing that already. They're making Zapp more of a straight-ahead blast that can be used at 80ft (and beyond). I'm just saying make it an 80ft blast, period. No tricky prereqs or complicated mechanics. Just an 80ft blast.| You want Electric to play different than it currently does. Own it and move on. |
Given the i24 changes, what I'm advocating isn't much different.
Prior to the proposed i24 changes, I never suggested any changes to this set. Now that they're making changes, I'm just saying make them ones that serve the set well based on its shortcomings.
Global @Watchdog
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A Regen Scrapper who isn't regularly using his heals when they are up isn't maximizing his potential, if he only needs his toggles and passives then he could be fighting more or more dangerous foes. Similarly a Blaster who doesn't use Aim and Buiold Up is not maximizing his potential.|
Originally Posted by Watchdog
Also, the clicky nature of blaster buffs isn't the same as the sets you compare it to. A regen Scrapper doesn't have to click a buff or heal every 30 seconds. Those buffs/heals are needed much less often in general, and arguably even less in most team environments and situations.
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| For Empathy Defenders, at least what they're doing fits thematically with their powers and roles, and they can deploy their buffs the same way they do their AoE heal (as opposed to the bad/micromanaging Defenders that insist everyone "Gather for buffs!" all the time). The mechanic of their buffs is identical to deployment of their most-used heal. It's not the same thing. |
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| With Blasters, it's non-stop silly animations all the time, now with the random clap thrown in to make it even sillier. And none of it makes sense, and none of it fits into the playstyle of a blaster. |
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Convert Zapp to a Tier 3 attack, and MAYBE streamline recharge times for the chain to make it a bit more dynamic and tactical. I'd settle for just the attack. That's it. That would make me happy. How many people who play this set regularly wouldn't drop the snipe for a Tier 3? Especially given the unnecessary complexities of the upcoming snipe changes... |
Now as for the Charge Up mechanic I suggested, did you take a moment to consider WHY I suggested it? I don't particularly care for the FastSnipe mechanic but I also don't think that the devs are going to do what I'd prefer and simply change all snipes to a 12 second recharge single target attack. To that end suggestions like the Charge Up mechanic and the change to FastSnipe trigger powers I made in a different thread are made with the intent of leveling the playing field where FastSnipe is concerned and addressing what I consider to be the main deficiencies of the mechanic.
Does anyone have further thoughts on giving Voltaic Sentinel a version of Conductive Aura like I mentioned above (the toggle power in Electric Control that slowly saps endurance)? Too powerful? I don't know what the pet modifier for -Endurance is offhand, but the power has a target cap of 10 rather than 16 and IMO could really help Electric out... maybe a little too much tho.
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It is an AI change and requires behavior pets are not particularly good at modeling. Go into the center of a spawn (and wiggle around as the spawn alters), while also using its range attacks.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Does anyone have further thoughts on giving Voltaic Sentinel a version of Conductive Aura like I mentioned above (the toggle power in Electric Control that slowly saps endurance)? Too powerful? I don't know what the pet modifier for -Endurance is offhand, but the power has a target cap of 10 rather than 16 and IMO could really help Electric out... maybe a little too much tho.
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I think it is an interesting idea to help with drain, but I am partial to the -max end idea, myself.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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At lower levels, what Electric loses compared to Energy in single target offense it makes up for by having a stackable hold. Until I24 rolls around, the single most critical issue for Blasters as datamined by the devs was survivability, not single target offense. Blasters died, often. Higher mitigation therefore should be weighted strongly relative to offense when it comes to comparing blaster primaries for average players under leveling conditions. Electric has a way to permanently disable a boss. Energy doesn't in the general case, unless you count power pushing them while chasing after them.|
Originally Posted by Watchdog
I totally see what you're saying and don't disagree, but think of the lower level blasters. They count, too.
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The notion of a continuous uninterrupted single target chain is itself a fiction for most players of all primaries. Without significant recharge slotting, Energy Blast can't do that with Bolt, Blast, and Burst any more than Electric can with its attacks. So that's not a binary difference either: its one of degree.
In either event, I'd probably just increase Tesla Cage to be a 0.8 DS attack with a 0.5 net DoT and call it a day on single target. I think making endurance drain work properly is a far more important issue to Electric Blast, particularly lower level Electric Blast.
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Meaningful endurance drain only happens point-blank until lvl 32. So unless you're talking about making Short Circuit a ranged, targeted AoE, I find it odd that you think the most important issue for a ranged set is a secondary effect that is melee-range for the first 31 levels of the game.
Someone that wants to make endurance drain a mainstay aspect of their game has 2 great options that currently function well in tandem, and can take a 3rd and 4th depending on their secondary and epic pool. A minor fix to the amount of drain present in their attacks is arguably all that's needed to further this aspect of Electricity.
And you're making it sound like only one change is possible. Drain may need some love, but it blows my mind that no one here can even concede that ELB's ranged attack chain is even an issue to begin with.
It's like everyone here has their pet peeve with the set and can't see any others. I agree with you on the endurance drain problems. I agree with Adeon that his Charge Up idea is a cool one. I agree that the SC animation should be shorter, and that VS needs a duration tweak. I see all of your points.
So why is it that all I'm hearing is that my point is ridiculous, that I should play another set or my idea of balance is wrong or that I want to totally change the way the set plays? Seriously, why is my very simple request met with such steadfast refusal from you guys? Is it completely insane to want to play an Electricity Blaster with a focus on ranged powers; to just want a decent, functional chain to allow that approach?
Sorry to sound so frustrated, but I'm getting a little tired of very clearly stating my points and having you guys twist them into something else entirely.
Global @Watchdog
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Originally Posted by Watchdog
Right, so we're now relying on 4 quick buffs/casts every minute or so: VS, Aim, Buildup, and now Clap.
Imagine a superhero movie... HeroGuy walks into a CoH warehouse. He does his little wavy-arm thing to summon Voltaic Sentinel. He walks around the corner and spots the first group of enemies. He does the Aim animation. He does the Buildup animation. He does the Lightning Clap animation. All 3 in a row, before he engages anyone. Now imagine that from the beginning of that mission to the end, he stops roughly every 45 seconds to do ALL of those 4 animations over and over and over again, in AND out of battle. Question: Does this make him appear more like a superhero or a spastic with SEVERE, uncontrollable ticks? |
Have you ever played an MMO? Some of them have whole *CLASSES* where they do nothing *BUT* cast extraneous buffs and summon things.
Boy I remember back when I played FFXI, if you were a summoner, redmage, bard or white mage, most of your career was casting protectra [roman numeral], shellra [roman numeral], stone skin, regen [roman numeral] on the tank, refresh on other mages, Blink if you had it all before anyone even started to fight. God help you if you were a Bard or Redmage because people would demand your buffs/debuffs even if you had other offensive abilities. Black Mages? Would cast the same things if they took the other jobs as subjobs...and none of the above include their job abilities which often are self buff abilities that boost the next cast spell.
Thief or Ranger? Thief had Trick Attack and Sneak Attack (and another one I forget) they had to use before engaging and Ranger used powers like Barrage and Unlimited shot all of which enhance the next attacks used. And my favorite, the Monk, is famous for spamming Boost before engaging because it was a 15 second recast ability that stacked and lasted 3 minutes.
So yeah, crying you have to use 4 powers that buff you a great deal? You're just being a baby. You don't even need to use Aim and BU together or you can even save it if the situation isn't critical. I mean, I run SR scrappers as my main, I don't keep any powers on auto so have to click Practice Brawler myself and occasionally I just don't click it at all...not the end of the world and don't end up dead since not ever battle is critical. No reason you need to click every buff all the time together at once just because...be glad you have powers that buff you and don't require a target to begin with.
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You pretty much said it yourself, everyone has different aspects that they consider in terms of balance and different agendas. My apologies if I'm misrepresenting anyone, this is simply my view of the points that have been raised.|
Originally Posted by Watchdog
So why is it that all I'm hearing is that my point is ridiculous, that I should play another set or my idea of balance is wrong or that I want to totally change the way the set plays? Seriously, why is my very simple request met with such steadfast refusal from you guys? Is it completely insane to want to play an Electricity Blaster with a focus on ranged powers; to just want a decent, functional chain to allow that approach?
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You feel that the primary consideration in a blast set is that is have at least three non-snipe direct damage single target attacks.
I feel that Electric as a whole is fine overall but that the FastSnipe mechanic in general is poorly implemented and that if it does go forward as is Assault Rifle and Electrical Blast need to be reviewed since FastSnipe is going to make their single target damage very variable except on certain ATs or Powersets and I don't like that.
Arcanaville feels that while the single target damage in Electrical is weak but for the most part it makes up for it in other ways so that's ok. Her primary concern is that Endurance Drain is supposed to be the big draw for Electrical over other Blast sets but that Endurance Drain as a whole has mechanical problems in PvE so she wants to see that looked at rather than just saying "forget it" and buffing the set's damage to make up for it.
Other posters in this thread feel that Electrical needs a general damage buff but would prefer to do it by buffing VS for single target damage and SC for AoE damage.
So what it really comes down to is that most people in this thread are approaching the set form a different viewpoint than you are. As I mentioned in my last post, you may simply be happier playing a different powerset. The reason people aren't giving a lot of support to your opinion is that they believe that Electrical Blast is balanced around a different paradigm than the one you seem to want. That doesn't necessarily make you wrong but it does mean people are disinclined to support your changes since a buff in that direction would move it away from the paradigm that they wanted it balanced around.
You mentioned not liking to use VS in a previous post. That's fine, and completely your decision. However keep in mind that some people DO like using VS and would like to see it buffed. If the direct attack single target damage of the set is buffed instead that decreases the change that those people will get what they want.
Also, as a side note, what secondary do you have? Except for Devices and Energy the Blaster secondaries all have a ranged immobilize as their tier one which has the same damage and recharge as Charged Bolts (although with a higher end cost). If you slot that for damage and use it as a standard attack you can actually make a reasonably decent 3-power attack chain.
Why can't snipes be like Assassin Strike? Normal snipe outside of fight, quicker inside. Would warrant a small decrease in power, but would be worth it to actually be able to use it.
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Hold that thought.|
Originally Posted by Watchdog
Sorry to sound so frustrated, but I'm getting a little tired of very clearly stating my points and having you guys twist them into something else entirely.
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Quote:
| Meaningful endurance drain only happens point-blank until lvl 32. So unless you're talking about making Short Circuit a ranged, targeted AoE, I find it odd that you think the most important issue for a ranged set is a secondary effect that is melee-range for the first 31 levels of the game. |
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| I think making endurance drain work properly is a far more important issue to Electric Blast, particularly lower level Electric Blast. |
The following Electric Blast powers have endurance drain effects in them and have more than melee or PBAoE range and are available prior to level 31.
Charged Bolts
Lightning Bolt
Ball Lightning
Zapp
Tesla Cage
Voltaic Sentinel
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| So why is it that all I'm hearing is that my point is ridiculous, that I should play another set or my idea of balance is wrong or that I want to totally change the way the set plays? Seriously, why is my very simple request met with such steadfast refusal from you guys? Is it completely insane to want to play an Electricity Blaster with a focus on ranged powers; to just want a decent, functional chain to allow that approach? |
If you don't like a power, don't take it. If you don't like it to the point of deciding its time to get rid of it entirely, you have to be prepared to defend that suggestion against every other player that is equally justified in challenging that suggestion. You should not be expecting lots of people to sympathize with your position that the power they are currently getting use out of should be yanked out of their build and replaced with something completely different.
You have to realize you're not just asking for something, you're also asking to take something away. It is in fact completely insane to think that asking for Short Circuit to turn into a single target attack would not generate massive opposition. There are people nervous about the I24 Nuke changes which are almost entirely beneficial. And they do have a right to express their concern about that change. Short Circuit to Dehydrate by comparison is the eponymous sprouting of a cottage.
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Thanks for the thoughtful post, and my apologies for the Aim/Buildup/Charge Up debate that cropped up. I was just illustrating that as a particular theme of the AT that I wish they'd focus less on going forward. Instead they're focusing more on it by adding another (seemingly odd) type of self buff. Anyway, I didn't mean for that part of the discussion to become a big deal.
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Change. Not changes. One change. They are already changing Zapp to function more along the way that I'd like it to function. All I'm saying is make it an outright change instead of the new snipe mechanic they're proposing. I find it unnecessarily complicated.| That doesn't necessarily make you wrong but it does mean people are disinclined to support your changes since a buff in that direction would move it away from the paradigm that they wanted it balanced around. |
Furthermore, making this change to ELB's snipe opens the door to address the shortcomings in other sets that have snipes, too. Some of those sets could use another straightforward attack. Others could use something else entirely, regardless of what it is.
Yes, I also mentioned that I think it would be nice if they revisited the DMG/END/RECH balance, too. With fewer powers to choose from, it would help if they were up a little faster to give the ranged chain more flexibility. It would be nice if they did this, but I would absolutely settle for Zapp functioning as a standard blast (I don't even care if it's a full-blown Tier 3 or something somewhere in the middle -- just something I can make a ranged chain with).
So again, my suggestion is really just the one change. I'm trying to keep it simple because I AGREE with you guys about the other stuff, too. End Drain needs attention, SC's animation needs to be reduced, VS needs a longer duration, TC might need a tweak or two, and so on.
As a whole, the set could use a lot of work. But prior to them announcing i24 changes, I never spoke out about ELB needing specific attention at all. I just figured now that they ARE making some changes, why not discuss which changes might benefit the set the most.
And really, given the change they're already making to Zapp, why is what I'm suggesting so outrageous? Why do you feel that my request means that I want the set balanced around some other paradigm?
Global @Watchdog
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It doesn't even warrant a decrease in power, if I am remembering the numbers correctly. There is, of course, no hidden/unhidden state with which to gate the variance.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Why can't snipes be like Assassin Strike? Normal snipe outside of fight, quicker inside. Would warrant a small decrease in power, but would be worth it to actually be able to use it.
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Out of a fight/in a fight are not very good as gating mechanic, though, so soemthing would need to be added.
The proposed sniper change already is this, by the way. In one circumstance (hidden/less than 22% to-hit) it behaves way A. In the other circumstance (unhidden/22% or more to-hit) it behaves way B. It is arguable that the to-hit gate is somewhat more onerous than the hidden one, but there are advantages the to-hit gate has over hidden.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It isn't. Personally I'd happily support your change, but not for the reasons you want it. I firmly believe that the FastSnipe mechanic is a poor solution to the problem of people not taking snipes and that changing all of the snipes to a standard attack is the best solution.|
Originally Posted by Watchdog
And really, given the change they're already making to Zapp, why is what I'm suggesting so outrageous? Why do you feel that my request means that I want the set balanced around some other paradigm?
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However I don't expect the devs to actually DO that which is why I've been suggesting other solutions. I also wouldn't support changing just Zapp from a snipe to a single target attack because I feel that would be unfair to those people who like snipes and happen to play electrical blast. So yeah, changing all snipes to single target attacks is fine and something I'd support, changing Zapp alone is not. I don't think either will happen though so I'm looking at alternatives.
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Its not so much outrageous so much as its never going to happen. The devs have already announced the snipe change. The change already exists in the I24 build. They aren't going to completely reverse the work they did on them without some direct evidence that those changes *don't* work at all. Which you won't be able to provide prior to I24 reaching beta.
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Originally Posted by Watchdog
And really, given the change they're already making to Zapp, why is what I'm suggesting so outrageous?
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Hold that thought.|
The following Electric Blast powers have endurance drain effects in them and have more than melee or PBAoE range and are available prior to level 31. Charged Bolts Lightning Bolt Ball Lightning Zapp Tesla Cage Voltaic Sentinel |
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| When I say make endurance drain work properly, do you actually believe I mean "make short circuit work properly, because if I'm going to make endurance drain work effectively, I'm only going to improve it for powers that are already effective." |
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| Meaningful endurance drain only happens point-blank until lvl 32. |
Aside from the powers that are specifically designed to drain large amounts of endurance, the -end component of ELB's attacks was never something that would shut an opponent down before the DMG component killed them outright.
So again, meaningful endurance drain only exists point-blank prior to level 32. If you want to make that no longer true, I would LOVE to have that discussion. That sounds like it could be a lot of fun, but it's also something that would benefit from having a more efficient attack chain.
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| Because you've shown a cavalier attitude towards eliminating powers other players actually use. |
My original post (my first in years) assumed that that would continue to be the case; that -end had been busted for so long that it didn't feel like something anyone was interested in fixing. And whether I like it or not, that makes Short Circuit and Power Sink far less useful than they had been in the past.
So yeah, if that was going to remain the case, I would possibly be okay with them making some sweeping changes to Short Circuit, so I tossed that idea out there to see what people thought. They didn't like it, had some suggestions of their own (including making Zapp a regular blast), and I heard what they said, realized that there were some things I hadn't considered, and suggested something else.
That's the point of discussion, no? I didn't dig in and refuse to acknowledge other points of view, did I? No, I listened and came around to a suggestion that I think works a lot better...
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| People actually use short circuit. |
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| There are players actually looking forward to the fast snipe |
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| Some people like the unique aspect of Voltaic Sentinel and want only minor adjustments to the power to improve its effectiveness without altering what it does fundamentally. |
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| Short Circuit to Dehydrate |
Global @Watchdog
Ultimately, a lot of people have come thinking they could fix the game with a magic wand, and ultimately all of them give up disappointed often having altered basically nothing of the game. The players that ultimately end up making a difference are not those that believe they can fix the game, but those that believe they can improve the game, and are willing to do so over the long haul.
There is no reason why any player should subject themselves to doing that much work for so little return with so much uncertainty. Unless, of course, they want to.
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