Quote:
How did I not see that post!? Yes, I think that pretty much hit the spot. Balanced approach. And I don't think Brutes would notice all that much difference. How many brutes constantly run at 90% res and the damage cap? I play them quite a bit, and doing either is pretty difficult to do, let alone sustain.
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
IMO Claws nailed it with this proposal!
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
Adjusting the cap is not the only thing I'm proposing. It goes in hand with creating a fun, thematic and unique mechanic for Tanker offense. Whatever that mechanic is, I'm open to hearing ideas.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Johnny, I think we're pretty close on something I could call an agreement. I would still prefer that scalars be adjusted over damage caps, so that EVERYONE can make use of the buff as easily. Buffing the caps would only be noticeable on people using builds like SS/Shield or DM/Shield, who are already creeping up to the damage caps. Make the buff a fair one for all builds, and I might just say you and I are one the same page about something for once.
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EDIT: And to clarify, by 'Tanker offense' I don't necessarily mean a damage boosting mechanic (but I'm not discounting one either). Right now there is a view that Tankers are just Brutes without Fury. We need something that ideally gives their fighting style some "OOMPH", makes them appealing to the people who wont play them currently because "they're just slow low damage Brutes/Scrappers" and works some more comic thematics into the AT. In other words, some "flash". A simple raising of the damage scalar isn't flashy. IMO, it's boring.
IMO, this "something" could be anything from having John Williams musically score Tanker combat (not a serious suggestion!) to adding some visual affects to Bruising to creating a mechanic that attempts to emulate the "World of Cardboard" speech to let Tankers unload on the hard targets.
.
Quote:
Well, I'm not against new mechanics being introduced, but for the sake of getting changes that are easy to do and less problematic, adjusting scalars is the "simplest" approach that can be more easily quantified. If you want a mix of scalar and damage cap adjustments, I'm willing to listen. But certainly not just damage caps.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Adjusting the cap is not the only thing I'm proposing. It goes in hand with creating a fun, thematic and unique mechanic for Tanker offense. Whatever that mechanic is, I'm open to hearing ideas.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Adjusting the cap is not the only thing I'm proposing. It goes in hand with creating a fun, thematic and unique mechanic for Tanker offense. Whatever that mechanic is, I'm open to hearing ideas.
EDIT: And to clarify, by 'Tanker offense' I don't necessarily mean a damage boosting mechanic (but I'm not discounting one either). Right now there is a view that Tankers are just Brutes without Fury. We need something that ideally gives their fighting style some "OOMPH", makes them appealing to the people who wont play them currently because "they're just slow low damage Brutes/Scrappers" and works some more comic thematics into the AT. In other words, some "flash". A simple raising of the damage scalar isn't flashy. IMO, it's boring. IMO, this "something" could be anything from having John Williams musically score Tanker combat (not a serious suggestion!) to adding some visual affects to Bruising to creating a mechanic that attempts to emulate the "World of Cardboard" speech to let Tankers unload on the hard targets. . |
I will again table the idea of creating a Domination style click power for tankers that builds up over time as the tanker gains and holds aggro. When the power is activated all single target attacks will have a portion of the damage (say 50%) applied to any targets affected by Gauntlet. Also fix it so that the extra 50% damage is only applied to the selected target if that target is an AV or higher.
Like Domination set it up so that it can be made perma if a player builds specifically for it.
IMO, this kind of mechanic would address some of the OOMPH concerns and give tankers their own offensive niche within the melee archetypes.
^
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
Quote:
Fire and elec...the 2 most common farmers anyone uses...|
Originally Posted by Rylas
How did I not see that post!? Yes, I think that pretty much hit the spot. Balanced approach. And I don't think Brutes would notice all that much difference. How many brutes constantly run at 90% res and the damage cap? I play them quite a bit, and doing either is pretty difficult to do, let alone sustain.
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Just saying...it would never happen...heads would roll the outcry would be so incredible.
Brutes are fine...leave them be...fix tanks according to their issues, not according to other AT's.
Stop looking over the fence and saying the grass is greener...look at your own lawn and kill the grubs under the garden...pluck a few weeds and call it good.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
Exactly. If brutes are so what these tanker players want to be, why not roll a brute? If brutes have pretty much the same survivability as tankers yet do more damage, why not just switch at's?|
Originally Posted by planet_J
Fire and elec...the 2 most common farmers anyone uses...
Just saying...it would never happen...heads would roll the outcry would be so incredible. Brutes are fine...leave them be...fix tanks according to their issues, not according to other AT's. Stop looking over the fence and saying the grass is greener...look at your own lawn and kill the grubs under the garden...pluck a few weeds and call it good. |
Because these players have other motives. Some are scrapper fans who want to see their competition diminished, while others seem to want the tanker to be the tank mage of coh. Lets just ignore the fact that tankers are undeniably more survivable than both brutes and scrappers from start to finish. Let's ignore the fact that brutes are rarely running around at 90% fury or with maxed out resistance. Let's ignore the fact scrappers do outdamage brutes.
The real problem with tankers is their speciality. Their speciality is survivability and aggro management., and they're damn good at it. If you can't outsurvive and out-aggro a brute on a tank, you're doing it wrong, there is nothing wrong with the at. The real problem is, survivability and aggro management are boring to most people. Tanks are not supposed to be damage dealers, and they're not. If you're looking to deal damage, the problem is with the player in that they're simply choosing the wrong at.
I hope the devs aren't swayed by these flawed and biased arguments, becuase it would simply move all the at's closer and closer together, until there really wouldn't be a point to having different melee at's. Again, if you want to do more damage, roll a scrapper or brute, they're both really good at it. If you want to be king of aggro and survivability, roll a tank. I've got multiple 50s of all the melee at's, and with the recent buffs to stalkers and the not so recent but certainly not ancient buff to tanks, I'd say they're all as balanced as they're going to get.
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And if 5% is going to completely gimp them, I'd be surprised. And before you jump to conclusions, my main is an SS/Elec brute. I'll probably keep him as my main until the servers shut down. And really, I'll be ok.|
Originally Posted by planet_J
Fire and elec...the 2 most common farmers anyone uses...
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Quote:
| Just saying...it would never happen...heads would roll the outcry would be so incredible. |
Quote:
| Brutes are fine...leave them be...fix tanks according to their issues, not according to other AT's. |
Quote:
| Stop looking over the fence and saying the grass is greener...look at your own lawn and kill the grubs under the garden...pluck a few weeds and call it good. |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
Looking at the suggestion as making the ATs closer and closer is seeing it wrong. What many people are suggesting is more of an inversion chart. As you approach damage on this straight line, your survival goes down equally. Or, in a more balanced relationship. It doesn't draw the ATs closer together, it's spacing them more evenly apart on both aspects.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I hope the devs aren't swayed by these flawed and biased arguments, becuase it would simply move all the at's closer and closer together, until there really wouldn't be a point to having different melee at's. Again, if you want to do more damage, roll a scrapper or brute, they're both really good at it. If you want to be king of aggro and survivability, roll a tank. I've got multiple 50s of all the melee at's, and with the recent buffs to stalkers and the not so recent but certainly not ancient buff to tanks, I'd say they're all as balanced as they're going to get.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Again, addressing the Brute damage issue : Brutes compensate for weaker damage ratios than any other melee class by having such a high cap. If they're being limited to a ceiling that caps them 'exactly between' Scrapper and Tanker caps, but they keep their existing ratios (offensively worse than any class except Controller, Defender, and Mastermind) they aren't 'balanced,' they're bad at everything.
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Even in an parallel universe where Brutes didn't possess Fury? Interesting. There was me thinking that Fury made it trivial for a Brute to out-damage a Tanker, conditions being equal for the two of them. Guess I missed that one in the patch notes.|
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
Again, addressing the Brute damage issue : Brutes compensate for weaker damage ratios than any other melee class by having such a high cap. If they're being limited to a ceiling that caps them 'exactly between' Scrapper and Tanker caps, but they keep their existing ratios (offensively worse than any class except Controller, Defender, and Mastermind) they aren't 'balanced,' they're bad at everything.
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-Captain_Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU
Quote:
Excellent satire.
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Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
Again, addressing the Brute damage issue : Brutes compensate for weaker damage ratios than any other melee class by having such a high cap. If they're being limited to a ceiling that caps them 'exactly between' Scrapper and Tanker caps, but they keep their existing ratios (offensively worse than any class except Controller, Defender, and Mastermind) they aren't 'balanced,' they're bad at everything.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Don't agree with the reasoning, but FWIW, I mostly agree with the conclusion. Tankers don't warrant much, if any, developer attention.|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
And this is precisely why I don't want Tankers toyed with. A proper Tanker build using all the existing end-game upgrade methods available can make nearly any Brute look like a one-trick pony and in some cases can even exceed their performance given that a Tanker's default burst output will not diminish when consistent DPS is interrupted for whatever reason (utilities, mobility, etc.), unlike a Brute who depends on maintaining their chains to keep themselves at optimal capacity. I believe this is the Dev's standpoint as well, which leads me to believe that there won't be a "buff" to the existing framework so much as a complete makeover.
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The bit about Tankers' higher damage modifier, relative to Brutes, is overblown, though. (And by that I don't mean to single out Sylph's post; I'm addressing what seems to be a general theme among various posts in this thread.)
We're talking a difference of about 6%; to say (or to imply) that Brutes have to work to maintain Tanker-equivalent levels of Fury-enhanced offense is to ignore reality. Yes, a Brute has to work to maintain his peak offense, but his peak offense is significantly higher than a Tanker's. A Brute player can maintain a meaningful damage advantage while practically sleeping at the keyboard.
But yeah, in general I'd say Tankers are underrated on the forums. Their damage is better than (seemingly) most people think, and their survivability is insane. Perhaps a higher buff ceiling for Tankers is warranted for the sake of high-end-team play, but as self-contained entities Tankers really aren't bad even compared with Brutes.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Quote:
How much difference is 2.5% Defense? A LOT...just saying. 5% Resistance is equivalent.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
And if 5% is going to completely gimp them, I'd be surprised. And before you jump to conclusions, my main is an SS/Elec brute. I'll probably keep him as my main until the servers shut down. And really, I'll be ok.
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Quote:
| There was an outcry of the unholiest of orders when ED was brought into the game, and yet here we are. Outcries happen when people see balance come around. |
Quote:
| I've already stated that I think Tank damage is fine. But if you really think that balancing between ATs is inappropriate, then you clearly don't understand balance. There's nothing outrageous about making tanker damage compare to brute damage in the way that brute survival compares to tanker survival. |
Quote:
| As I just pointed out, my main is a Brute. If the lawn I'm looking at is my own and I say my lawn's a little greener than yours, is that ok? |
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
And it's still manageable if you go from 90% to 85%. If you're going to complain about farmers, I'm not sure the devs are worried about that.|
Originally Posted by planet_J
How much difference is 2.5% Defense? A LOT...just saying. 5% Resistance is equivalent.
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Quote:
| ED brought us set bonuses, and was under an old regime, looking back I think everyone agrees it totally nerfed some powersets, a few more than others...(regen)...but it was generally a good thing. |
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| Ok, brutes are 25% lower on all survival base modifiers than tanks (with the exception of HP being 10%)...tanks are about 25% less damage now...where are the current issues with damage? This is only about Johnny's crusade. Where's Pontius Pilate so we can get the AT martyr act overwith? |
Quote:
| No, it isn't because if you look objectively at the numbers... |
I once thought the same as you. I only looked at the base numbers and SO performance. But on large teams where things begin to approach max numbers, I realized there was a disparity there that was more than it should be. That's being objective.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
You're talking about less than 1% of the game, your arguments are not better than Johnny's saying Brutes run around with capped resistances and capped damage full time. |
Originally Posted by Rylas
And it's still manageable if you go from 90% to 85%. If you're going to complain about farmers, I'm not sure the devs are worried about that.
When ED hit, no one thought that. They do now. If they were to look back at evenly spacing out the damage/survival scale of the melee ATs, I'm sure the reasonable ones would think it was a good thing, too. We're talking about at their potential levels of damage and survival. That's the imbalance. Max the survival numbers and the damage numbers out, and the differences are much wider on damage than survival. That's what people have asked to balance, so it's not an outrageous request to have it looked at. Again, objectively, the max numbers are much more unbalanced. I once thought the same as you. I only looked at the base numbers and SO performance. But on large teams where things begin to approach max numbers, I realized there was a disparity there that was more than it should be. That's being objective. |
For 99+% of the game it's fine, complaining about edge cases will buy you no traction.
The levels of buffs required to even get it close is mind boggling...
You're talking about Multiple barriers to get composite resists close to the cap, and under those circumstances Tanks will gain similar buffs capping out much faster and staying there for longer than brutes.
For damage buffs to get a brute to the cap, you're talking about... multiples of Accelerated Metabolism + Painbringer + Fulcrum Shift...and I am not even sure that would get you all the way...even with 100% damage slotting and 100% Fury...you'd be less than that...STILL! Brutes can't even outdo scrapper damage at those levels with equal buffs AND Fury.
Explain to me in what reality that the situation above occurs...at all? I have personally never run a trial and hit the damage cap...even on SS toons with double stacked rage...I could burn a large red Insp, even several, and STILL see appropriate levels of improvements...
Same with my Dark Armor/Fire Melee tank...
here are the builds I run on live:
Dark/Fire Tank:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.958
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Soulfire Darkness: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Dark Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Death Shroud -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(3), Erad-Dmg:30(5), FotG-Dam/End/Rech:50(25), FotG-Acc/End/Rech:50(25), FotG-ResDeb%:50(45)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(9)
Level 2: Dark Embrace -- RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(13), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(13)
Level 4: Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(19)
Level 6: Super Jump -- Zephyr-ResKB:50(A), Zephyr-Travel:50(7)
Level 8: Murky Cloud -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(9), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(11), RctvArm-ResDam:40(27), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(27), S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(29)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), GA-3defTpProc:50(15), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(31), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(31), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(31)
Level 12: Taunt -- Zinger-Dam%:50(A)
Level 14: Dark Regeneration -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg:30(15), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(36), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(36), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen:50(36), Theft-+End%:30(37)
Level 16: Breath of Fire -- Ragnrk-Dmg:50(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg:50(37), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg:50(39), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(39)
Level 18: Cloak of Darkness -- LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(19), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(23), SW-ResDam/Re TP:50(29)
Level 20: Build Up -- Rec'dRet-Pcptn:20(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit:20(21)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(34)
Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(33), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(33), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(33)
Level 28: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(34)
Level 30: Oppressive Gloom -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 32: Soul Transfer -- Erad-Acc/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(46)
Level 35: Fire Sword Circle -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(37), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg:50(40), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), Armgdn-Dam%:50(43)
Level 38: Incinerate -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(40), Hectmb-Dam%:50(40), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg:50(42), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx:50(46)
Level 41: Greater Fire Sword -- SMotTanker-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SMotTanker-Rchg/Res%:50(42), SMotTanker-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), SMotTanker-Dmg/Rchg:50(43), SMotTanker-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), SMotTanker-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(46)
Level 44: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(45)
Level 47: Gloom -- Apoc-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), Apoc-Dam%:50(48), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(50)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(50), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(50)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(21)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(11), EndMod-I:50(23)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Cimeroran Core Superior Ally
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Code:
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Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.958
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Rage King: Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Jab -- SBrutesF-Rech/Fury:50(A), SBrutesF-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(3), SBrutesF-Dmg/Rchg:50(3), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/EndRdx:30(5), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg:30(13)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Panac-Heal:50(A), Panac-Heal/EndRedux:50(5), Panac-Heal/Rchg:50(7), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(7), Panac-Heal/+End:50(9)
Level 2: Punch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(9), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(11)
Level 4: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-EndMod:50(A), P'Shift-End%:50(13), EndMod-I:50(15)
Level 6: Reconstruction -- Panac-Heal/EndRedux:50(A), Panac-EndRdx/Rchg:50(15), Panac-Heal/Rchg:50(17), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(17), Panac-Heal:50(19)
Level 8: Haymaker -- SBrutesF-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(A), SBrutesF-Acc/Dmg:50(19), SBrutesF-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(21), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/EndRdx:30(21), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg:30(23)
Level 10: Super Jump -- Winter-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 12: Dull Pain -- Panac-Heal/EndRedux:50(A), Panac-EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), Panac-Heal/Rchg:50(25), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(25), Panac-Heal:50(27)
Level 14: Knockout Blow -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(27), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg:50(29), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx:50(29), Hectmb-Dam%:50(34)
Level 16: Integration -- Panac-Heal:50(A), Panac-Heal/EndRedux:50(36), Panac-EndRdx/Rchg:50(36), Panac-Heal/Rchg:50(36), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(40)
Level 18: Rage -- Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg:20(A), Rec'dRet-Pcptn:20(37), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:50(37)
Level 20: Resilience -- RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(37), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(39), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(39), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(40)
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(40), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(42), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(42), GA-3defTpProc:50(43)
Level 26: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(43), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(43)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Panac-Heal:50(A), Panac-Heal/EndRedux:50(45), Panac-EndRdx/Rchg:50(46), Panac-Heal/Rchg:50(46), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(46)
Level 30: Hurl -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(31), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(31), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(31), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(34)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg:50(33), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(33), Armgdn-Dam%:50(34)
Level 35: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(50)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(39)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(45)
Level 47: Gloom -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Apoc-Acc/Rchg:50(48), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), Apoc-Dam%:50(50)
Level 49: Tactics -- Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg:20(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit:20(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 4: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 4: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(A)
Level 4: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 4: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:50(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Cimeroran Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Rebirth Radial Epiphany
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Assault Radial Embodiment
------------
Code:
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Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.958
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Deaths Final Embrace v2.1: Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Gambler's Cut -- Mako-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx:50(5), Mako-Dmg/Rchg:50(5), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), Mako-Dam%:50(9)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- Aegis-ResDam:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(9), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(11), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), Aegis-Psi/Status:50(13), S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(21)
Level 2: Death Shroud -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg:50(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(13), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:50(15), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:50(15), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(17), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(17)
Level 4: Murky Cloud -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), Aegis-ResDam:50(19), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(19), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(21), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg:50(23)
Level 6: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit:50(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:50(25), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:50(25), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx:50(27), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx:50(27), GSFC-Build%:50(29)
Level 8: Divine Avalanche -- Mako-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx:50(29), Mako-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), Mako-Dam%:50(33)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- Aegis-ResDam:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(33), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(33), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(34), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg:50(34)
Level 12: Dragon's Roar -- Zinger-Dam%:50(A)
Level 14: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Tough -- GA-3defTpProc:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(34), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(36), Aegis-ResDam:50(36)
Level 18: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(37), SW-ResDam/Re TP:50(37)
Level 20: Dark Regeneration -- Theft-+End%:30(A), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:30(37), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Heal:30(39), Nictus-Acc/Heal:50(39), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40)
Level 22: Cloak of Darkness -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(50)
Level 24: The Lotus Drops -- Erad-Acc/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Dmg/Rchg:30(40), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(40), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg:50(42), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(45)
Level 26: Soaring Dragon -- Mako-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), Mako-Dmg/Rchg:50(43), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43), Mako-Dam%:50(45)
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- N'mare-Acc/EndRdx:50(A), N'mare-EndRdx/Fear:50(45), N'mare-Acc/Fear:50(46)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(46)
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg:30(46), Erad-Dmg/Rchg:30(48), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg:50(48), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(50)
Level 35: Super Jump -- Zephyr-ResKB:50(A)
Level
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
If this is all true, why would you care if Brute resistance caps were reduced by 5%, since you never "hit the caps for EVERYTHING" anyway?
|
Originally Posted by planet_J
There, I have NEVER hit the caps for EVERYTHING, and never hit the damage cap.
Brutes are not broken. The circumstances you all are trying to describe...simply don't happen. So this fairy tale world, while hypothetically possible NEVER happens. |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Quote:
Back in the days when IOs weren't even a topic, I used to run an SS brute with a Kin friend. He was more than sufficient at keeping me at the damage cap all by himself. And the damage cap was higher back then.|
Originally Posted by planet_J
For damage buffs to get a brute to the cap, you're talking about... multiples of Accelerated Metabolism + Painbringer + Fulcrum Shift...and I am not even sure that would get you all the way...even with 100% damage slotting and 100% Fury...you'd be less than that...STILL! Brutes can't even outdo scrapper damage at those levels with equal buffs AND Fury.
|
And no ones talking about brutes outdoing Scrappers. Were just talking about about Brutes and Tanks.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
Because the only 2 situations where it becomes a factor are Fire and Elec Armor, and I don't think that gimping those 2 sets is fair to simply appease a group who is unhappy with what they have, even when it isn't broken.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
If this is all true, why would you care if Brute resistance caps were reduced by 5%, since you never "hit the caps for EVERYTHING" anyway?
|
It would also put EATs on par with brutes, which I also don't agree with. No out of the box peacebringer or warshade should be on par with an AT designed to be a "tank" of sorts.
Unless you want to nerf EATs also...
While we're nerfing Brutes and EATs let's nerf scrappers so they are on equal footing like they were before...we'll just make them 70% so the EATs and brutes are losing no potential to what scrapper potential was.
Since we're doing that...let's look at Tanks, they are now FAR superior in survivability to brutes and EATs and Scrappers, so let's reduce their damage output a little more to compensate for the added gap in survivability...how about a 350% damage cap and a base damage modifier on par with brutes...I bet they'll love that...
Since we nerfed scrappers, let's look at Stalkers, they have the same caps as scrapper, let's nerf their resistance caps by 5% to match scrappers, stalkers can't be more survivable than scrappers or they will complain....
How's that for balance? Would you give up anything you had right now? Even though no tank can get to the damage cap realistically without serious help, and we know you guys typically cap several resistance types...
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
"Yer" funny. Hyperbole much? *looks at quoted post* Yes, yes indeed you do. |
Originally Posted by planet_J
Because the only 2 situations where it becomes a factor are Fire and Elec Armor, and I don't think that gimping those 2 sets is fair to simply appease a group who is unhappy with what they have, even when it isn't broken.
It would also put EATs on par with brutes, which I also don't agree with. No out of the box peacebringer or warshade should be on par with an AT designed to be a "tank" of sorts. Unless you want to nerf EATs also... While we're nerfing Brutes and EATs let's nerf scrappers so they are on equal footing like they were before...we'll just make them 70% so the EATs and brutes are losing no potential to what scrapper potential was. Since we're doing that...let's look at Tanks, they are now FAR superior in survivability to brutes and EATs and Scrappers, so let's reduce their damage output a little more to compensate for the added gap in survivability...how about a 350% damage cap and a base damage modifier on par with brutes...I bet they'll love that... Since we nerfed scrappers, let's look at Stalkers, they have the same caps as scrapper, let's nerf their resistance caps by 5% to match scrappers, stalkers can't be more survivable than scrappers or they will complain.... How's that for balance? Would you give up anything you had right now? Even though no tank can get to the damage cap realistically without serious help, and we know you guys typically cap several resistance types... |
So, reducing Fire and Electric Brute's resistance caps by 5%, so that it's not the same as a Fire or Electric Tank's, is "gimping them"? gotcha.
And you've decided that since we've "gimped Brutes" we MUST touch everything else and reduce their resistances... gotcha. Etc, etc, etc.
By the way... Warshades and Peacebringers are listed under the Tanking section, so I have no issues with them having the resistance caps that they have. Since "they would never get there anyway" just like Brutes.
So. Again, I ask you this. If your Brutes, with the exception of your Fire and Electric toons, never see the resistance caps; why are you hyperventilating over the remote possibility of a change? Would it make it harder on your Brute Farmers? Why are you getting so upset about something YOU SAY YOU NEVER EXPERIENCE?
Because, truly, if this bothers you this much, you must be afraid it will effect your Brutes. Because maybe, you do get to the caps more so then you really want to admit.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Quote:
And why MUST we "nerf" everyone? First we're talking about balancing, not nerfing. And two, we're talking about Brutes, not everyone. Inflating someone's words so you can then point out errors is called strawman tactics. They're not considered valid arguments.|
Originally Posted by planet_J
Unless you want to nerf EATs also...
While we're nerfing Brutes and EATs let's nerf scrappers Since we nerfed scrappers, let's look at Stalkers, |
It's like saying you oppose women getting the right to vote because then we'd have to let dogs vote. Then saying anyone that wants women to vote wants to also let dogs vote. (this is just an analogy, so don't turn this into a political tangent, I only use it because no one here would deny anyone that right).
Saying you want to balance the ATs into being more evenly spaced apart along both the damage curve and the defense curve isn't a call to "nerf" anyone, let alone all ATs.
[edit]I'd like to clarify that the above analogy is using the generic "you". Not the specific "you".
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
Actually, with the cap being only 300% and Enhancements getting you a lot of the way there, there are a few Sets and Set Combos that allow to ride that spot quite a bit.
|
Originally Posted by planet_J
Even though no tank can get to the damage cap realistically without serious help, and we know you guys typically cap several resistance types...
|
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
Technically it's a 400% cap (which is 300% above base damage), but you knew that. |
Originally Posted by Rylas
Actually, with the cap being only 300% and Enhancements getting you a lot of the way there, there are a few Sets and Set Combos that allow to ride that spot quite a bit.
|
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Quote:
Derp |
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Technically it's a 400% cap (which is 300% above base damage), but you knew that.
|
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
No, actually, I like my FA brute being able to shunt all but 10% damage from fire...Elec Armor would be even more gimped as Energy damage is extremely common these days.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
"Yer" funny. Hyperbole much? *looks at quoted post* Yes, yes indeed you do.
So, reducing Fire and Electric Brute's resistance caps by 5%, so that it's not the same as a Fire or Electric Tank's, is "gimping them"? gotcha. And you've decided that since we've "gimped Brutes" we MUST touch everything else and reduce their resistances... gotcha. Etc, etc, etc. By the way... Warshades and Peacebringers are listed under the Tanking section, so I have no issues with them having the resistance caps that they have. Since "they would never get there anyway" just like Brutes. So. Again, I ask you this. If your Brutes, with the exception of your Fire and Electric toons, never see the resistance caps; why are you hyperventilating over the remote possibility of a change? Would it make it harder on your Brute Farmers? Why are you getting so upset about something YOU SAY YOU NEVER EXPERIENCE? Because, truly, if this bothers you this much, you must be afraid it will effect your Brutes. Because maybe, you do get to the caps more so then you really want to admit. |
Also, Warshades can use eclipse to cap all thier resists with 3 hit. So they would be tougher than brutes at that point quite easily...and are arguably so now...not sure about PBs...but Warshades can easily cap ALL resists...eclipse is an amazing power that can be made permanent easily.
Yes, khelds are listed under tanking, but they're not inherently designed to be tanks specifically, only to fill that role among many others...brutes were originally meant to be a "tank". Thus the 5% difference...
So, essentially, you are saying you're ok with an AT that has one power that requires 3 NPCs to be hit and cap ALL resistances at 85% on top of doing more DPS than brutes, and gets 3 different forms to change roles...
But you're not ok with leaving brutes alone?
Also, I have never hit the caps...but that doesn't mean they should be changed. If the baselines for Brutes are so far shy of their caps (with a few exceptions fire/elec) then why does it even bother any of you what the top number is if they never get there?
Because you think the grass is greener...
If brutes are so great, then play them instead...reroll your tanks, unless you like Ice, at which point you're in the same boat any brute lover that wants those sets is in.
I will say this again, there is no melee AT in this game that is broken since the stalker changes...furthermore, there is no melee AT in this game that is out of balance, and no melee AT that needs a damage adjustment or a survivability balancing. Nothing is out of proportion, and I think Johnny has been cooking all your brains if that's what you all think.
Even claws admits that brutes are not out of whack, he just suggested this horrendous idea to make tanks feel special.
Well you are special...
125% Def/Res special
110% HP special
Ice Armor/Melee special
Gauntlet Special
Bruising Special
What else do you want? A statue of each of your tanks in front of Paragon Studios? Seriously...if you want to do more damage...then simply play a damage AT not a melee aggro control AT!
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
1) Increase Scrapper and Stalker resistance cap to 80%. This would put Scrappers at somewhat less than 80% of Tanker survivability.
2) Increase Tanker damage scalar to .9, which would put them at exactly 80% of Scrapper damage, and would have nearly the same net result as Johnny's proposed 545% damage cap. It would also help Tankers who are not sitting at their damage cap consistently. Raising their damage cap to 450% from their current 400% would not be particularly unbalancing.
3)Adjust Brutes accordingly. I would start by reducing their resistance cap to 85%, and their damage cap to 700%.
Given the same attack with a base damage of 100, at those damage caps a Scrapper would deal 562.5 with that attack, a Brute 525, and a Tanker 486 (to a Bruised target). That's a 37.5 point difference between Scrapper and Brute, and a 39 point difference between Brute and Tanker. Stalkers would come in at 500 damage with that attack, but their ability to land a crit when they want to more than evens the score, and actually puts them on top (because a Stalker player will leverage things to deal 1000 damage with that attack)
With the Scrapper and Stalker resistance cap increase to 80%, and the Brute decrease to 85%, it would put their survivability in reverse order, by just about the same margin of difference between them. Stalkers don't really need much, but it wouldn't be fair to increase Scrapper resistance without giving them the same.
Voila. Everyone but Brutes win, and Brutes just don't get to be overpowered compared to their melee brethren anymore. I would call that balancing rather than nerfing. It would put Brutes exactly between Scrappers and Tankers, where they are allegedly supposed to be anyway.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller