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The nasty catch to pencil cones is that they benefit stronger players. I wish both power bolt and power blast were pencil cones: I'd take a hit in damage but I would get to hit multiple targets with them. At the difficulty levels I play on, I can easily beat the AoE factor of 1.195. But the average player would probably have a more difficult time doing that with a blaster.
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Originally Posted by Garent
I can't speak for him, but from what I remember about the times we've talked about this, I think you're right. And yes, it's definitely on the list of changes that could be nice but are unlikely to happen due to the amount of work and risk involved.
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From an in-universe/"story"/whatever-you-want-to-call it perspective, that makes sense to me--having to be un-stealthed to lead an NPC out, I mean. Then again, with some exceptions (Praetorian missions spring to mind), by the time you're leading an NPC out you've already cleared the building/area of targets, and can feel relatively safe about doing so.|
Originally Posted by Ulysses Dare
I just wanted to bring up an issue I thought of this weekend regarding Cloaking Device.
I got one of those "lead the NPC to the glowie" missions, and of course I had to turn Cloaking Device off so the NPC wouldn't get lost. That's going to be a bit problematic if CD is supposed to be a source of sustainability. Something to test in beta, I suppose. |
But yes, I see your point--adding the Downtime Minimizer effect to a +stealth power when, I think, none of the other ones do that seems like an odd choice. But maybe that's exactly why Arbiter Hawk chose it. Who knows?
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Um, generally when leading NPC's out causes ambushes. Now, the heat seeking aspect of ambushesmeans the +stealth componant of Tactical Operative wouldn't help much, but, what I believe Ulysses was refering to, was the powers sustain effect, the +regen/+Recovery would be off when the ambush shows up. I the same thing with disabling hide on a stalker on NPC rescues, having to turn off hide, not for the stealth componant, but for the AOE defence componant.
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Originally Posted by Furora
Then again, with some exceptions (Praetorian missions spring to mind), by the time you're leading an NPC out you've already cleared the building/area of targets, and can feel relatively safe about doing so.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
 |
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Yeah, I do have a lot of issues with cones, and Piercing Rounds is even more bizarre than normal. It has a range of 80 feet and an arc of 4 degrees, which means that the formula would dictate an AoE mod of 2.56 (for those playing at home, the AoE mod is what the damage is divided by, so that is the number of targets required to break even). Meanwhile, Energy Torrent, a 40 foot cone with an arc of 45 degrees, has an AoE mod of 2.38, a smaller number. Which one of these is easier to target multiple enemies is rather obvious. It's an outlier case, but the same thing happens with Night Fall, 60 feet and 19 degrees, which has an AoE mod of 2.498 (also bigger than Energy Torrent's).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The nasty catch to pencil cones is that they benefit stronger players. I wish both power bolt and power blast were pencil cones: I'd take a hit in damage but I would get to hit multiple targets with them. At the difficulty levels I play on, I can easily beat the AoE factor of 1.195. But the average player would probably have a more difficult time doing that with a blaster.
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Thankfully, the Devs tweaked the formula for Piercing Rounds in specific, and treat it as if it has an AoE mod of 1.74, which is still way too high. Not only is it generally difficult for this power to hit more than one target, it has a target cap of only 3 enemies, so even the best player is only going to see a limited benefit of this power, when compared to other cones.
The formula is just plain bizarre. Buckshot and Flamethrower have the same range of 40 feet, while the first has a 30 degree arc and the second a 45 degree arc; their AoE mods are 2.16 and 2.38 respectively. One of those powers is much more likely to get more foes than the other. From what I see playing with the radius and arc, it has a valley shape to it, where any extreme values throw it off entirely (e.g. doubling the arc versus multiplying the radius by sqrt(2) only give equivalent modifiers for specific values - outside of that, one will win over the other).
I think Starsman had put together a more reasonable estimate for useability of aoe powers way back when he was trying to analyze aoe performance of dominators, that takes into account spawn dispersion and enemy size.
P.S. Yeah, the degenerate case bothers me. Only an attack of radius 0 will have an AoE mod of 1. Melee attacks have a range of 7, which would be a mod of 1.126 if you had an arc of 0. Pendulum, with an arc of 180, should have an AoE mod of 1.588, but it does slightly more than that.
P.P.S. Where does an AoE factor of 1.195 come from? At the 80 feet of Power Bolt, even an attack of 1 degree has an AoE mod of 2.4693.
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Ohhh, I kind of like the idea of Power Blast being a pencil cone. Kind of thematic, to my mind. But I can also see why people wouldn't like that. I find hitting more than one target with Piercing Rounds trivial on teams and generally easy at x2 or x3 soloing, but most seem to complaining about it as well.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The nasty catch to pencil cones is that they benefit stronger players. I wish both power bolt and power blast were pencil cones: I'd take a hit in damage but I would get to hit multiple targets with them. At the difficulty levels I play on, I can easily beat the AoE factor of 1.195. But the average player would probably have a more difficult time doing that with a blaster.
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Still, it seems like the extra work it takes to use Piercing Rounds an AOE should be accounted for better. I'm curious to see what adjustments Synapse made to the set.
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So $4 for 8 hours of easily perma fast snipes. The amplifiers are out. That's cheap enough that it MIGHT be worth it.
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From the wrong spreadsheet. That's an "experimental number" I grabbed by mistake analyzing a mechanical change to cones.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
P.P.S. Where does an AoE factor of 1.195 come from?
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Or possibly I was thinking of making Power Blast a cone with -42.5 degrees of arc.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
So $4 for 8 hours of easily perma fast snipes. The amplifiers are out. That's cheap enough that it MIGHT be worth it.
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LOL the money blaster. Why not just have a skill that lets you burn points for DPS ?
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I can haz pay 2 win? |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
LOL the money blaster. Why not just have a skill that lets you burn points for DPS ?
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The same amplifier does that also.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Why not just have a skill that lets you burn points for DPS ?
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Too bad. 1.195 is an acceptable AoE mod for Piercing Rounds.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
From the wrong spreadsheet. That's an "experimental number" I grabbed by mistake analyzing a mechanical change to cones.
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Agree 100% and want to see it nerfed, hard. Let it enhance only the first enemy target hit, restructure the power so that the other (up to 7) boosts are not enhanceable, and then lower the benefit each bonus beyond the first allows. Goal will be to have 3 targets provide a similar bonus to the new Blaster regen powers; if 7 targets are hit let it get to 130%-ish.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Drain Psyche is a high risk high reward power. But it is so high risk and so high reward that it places itself outside the norm of the game's design: far outside the ability for the average player to even begin to leverage. And that means on the one hand its far too powerful for min/maxers, and on the other hand far too risky for lower skill players.
That doesn't "balance out." Some powers have constant stable performance regardless of who uses them. Some reward skill. That's fine, to a point. Drain Psyche steps over that point, straps on a jetpack, and shoots off into the sky. That's separate from the fact it does certain things the devs as a rule don't allow generally allow in a standard power, including enhanceable regen debuff, and literally smashing into the caps for regen and recovery. |
Devs won't have the stones to bring it in.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Agree 100% and want to see it nerfed, hard. Let it enhance only the first enemy target hit, restructure the power so that the other (up to 7) boosts are not enhanceable, and then lower the benefit each bonus beyond the first allows. Goal will be to have 3 targets provide a similar bonus to the new Blaster regen powers; if 7 targets are hit let it get to 130%-ish.
Devs won't have the stones to bring it in. |
I also agree with the Queen O' Maths. I also think the devs should redesign the power for Blasters to fit the new 'sustain' paradigm. I don't necessarily think my changes would be a nerf however.
I think Drain Psyche should give a significant +regen/+recovery just on activation. Of course, if there are no NPCs in range, no debuff. I would drop the enhanceable -regen because that's just silly strong. I would greatly reduce the scaling portion of the +regen/+recovery for each NPC in range when the power is activated.
So the power would be something like:
200% Regen (half-enhanceable)/30% Recovery (fully enhanceable) on activation with a 60 second duration on activation. The recharge would be lowered to 60 seconds.
For each NPC hit; an additional 10% (fully enhanceable) +regen/recovery up to 10.
-250% -regen/recovery on each NPC hit, non-enhanceable with a 15 second duration. The nerf to the duration is to deal with the improvement in up-time.
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Aside from not having the stones to redo DP I don't think they want to revisit every other power in /Mental, because many people only take that for DP and it would need a buff imho.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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That's one perspective. I viewed it as they have the intelligence not to bring it in.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Agree 100% and want to see it nerfed, hard.
Devs won't have the stones to bring it in. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Leaving the power absurdly out of scale compared to all other regen abilities is not intelligent. To effectively balance a game, and give oneself the ability to modify archetype performance wholesale when necessary (like, gee, all this stuff going on in i24), it's a huge help to bring statistical outliers in.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
That's one perspective. I viewed it as they have the intelligence not to bring it in.
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Why is that?
Let's take a look at expected performance from (we'll go with) Field Operative. This power is gaining a base 200% Regen; half of that is enhanceable, so it'll be at 300%. That's pretty good!... oh, wait, Drain Psyche is fully enhanceable and does 75% Regen / Recovery for each enemy struck. So right there, two enemies (2) puts you at Field Operative levels of Regen, and hey, we'll throw in infinite endurance as a bonus. If you hit the maximum number of enemies (10), suddenly you're at 1500% recovery and regeneration after enhancements. That's pretty crazy... you're only 500% below cap at that point.
For comparison, Regen scrappers sit at about 1100% Regeneration over the long term if you average Instant Healing into their rotation, assuming 500% Recharge, and are significantly weaker if you remove that portion of their regeneration (by a lot... IH is essentially core to their survival).
Keep in mind that we haven't even mentioned that this power ALSO inflicts horrid debuffs on its targets that are ALSO fully enhanceable. 500% regeneration debuffs on
So what does that mean for the AT? Well, what that means is that if the development team would like to bring the Blaster AT up to par, that carries with it the concern that certain sets (Fire Blast, Mental Manipulation) will come out much farther ahead and make the archetype too good when compared to the rest of the game. Let's take as an example the idea that Arbiter Hawk suddenly decides to grant all powersets mez defense in the form of a power granting it for a brief period. We'd all want that, right? Suddenly, a well-slotted Blaster can out-dps a Scrapper while having as much defense, more resistance from APP and pool powers, and can regenerate at the same level as one and a half Regen Scrappers put together. A blaster with that much power can wipe out content intended for full conventional teams and can make or break a Trial by themselves. After all, a -500% Regen debuff on Tyrant really does a number on that 2nd phase.
So, what to do? How do you buff the archetype's powers without making the AT absolutely absurd in the team game?
You nerf the outlier. You bring down Drain Psyche. EvilGeko posted a good example of what it could be, and there are others.
Darth, I don't intend to be disrespectful here. I just think you haven't thought this through all the way.
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Powers are ballenced on more than just their effect. End cost, recharge, duration and good ole risk Vs reward. DS has a bigger regen/recovery, yes, the but it also has a longer recharge then say, Force of Thunder will have in I24, a bigger recharge to duration gap (FoT recharges quicker than it's duration where as DS's duration is only 1/4th its recharge) Almost all the other powers are auto-hit, so it is a garenteed buff, and the only other power that will need a hit check is aranged power rather than DS's 10ft radius PBAOE, giving it sufficiantly more risk to the user than any other power, so it should indeed be better than the others.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Leaving the power absurdly out of scale compared to all other regen abilities is not intelligent. To effectively balance a game, and give oneself the ability to modify archetype performance wholesale when necessary (like, gee, all this stuff going on in i24), it's a huge help to bring statistical outliers in.
Why is that? Let's take a look at expected performance from (we'll go with) Field Operative. This power is gaining a base 200% Regen; half of that is enhanceable, so it'll be at 300%. That's pretty good!... oh, wait, Drain Psyche is fully enhanceable and does 75% Regen / Recovery for each enemy struck. So right there, two enemies (2) puts you at Field Operative levels of Regen, and hey, we'll throw in infinite endurance as a bonus. If you hit the maximum number of enemies (10), suddenly you're at 1500% recovery and regeneration after enhancements. That's pretty crazy... you're only 500% below cap at that point. For comparison, Regen scrappers sit at about 1100% Regeneration over the long term if you average Instant Healing into their rotation, assuming 500% Recharge, and are significantly weaker if you remove that portion of their regeneration (by a lot... IH is essentially core to their survival). Keep in mind that we haven't even mentioned that this power ALSO inflicts horrid debuffs on its targets that are ALSO fully enhanceable. 500% regeneration debuffs on So what does that mean for the AT? Well, what that means is that if the development team would like to bring the Blaster AT up to par, that carries with it the concern that certain sets (Fire Blast, Mental Manipulation) will come out much farther ahead and make the archetype too good when compared to the rest of the game. Let's take as an example the idea that Arbiter Hawk suddenly decides to grant all powersets mez defense in the form of a power granting it for a brief period. We'd all want that, right? Suddenly, a well-slotted Blaster can out-dps a Scrapper while having as much defense, more resistance from APP and pool powers, and can regenerate at the same level as one and a half Regen Scrappers put together. A blaster with that much power can wipe out content intended for full conventional teams and can make or break a Trial by themselves. After all, a -500% Regen debuff on Tyrant really does a number on that 2nd phase. So, what to do? How do you buff the archetype's powers without making the AT absolutely absurd in the team game? You nerf the outlier. You bring down Drain Psyche. EvilGeko posted a good example of what it could be, and there are others. Darth, I don't intend to be disrespectful here. I just think you haven't thought this through all the way. |
The comming changes won't make DS any more powerful than it already is. If Blasters aren't already the kings of Magistrum Itrial then they still won't be come I24.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I would probably make Drain Psyche a targeted AoE, and have its regen and recovery buffs be staircased and duration-based rather than magnitude based.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I also agree with the Queen O' Maths. I also think the devs should redesign the power for Blasters to fit the new 'sustain' paradigm. I don't necessarily think my changes would be a nerf however.
I think Drain Psyche should give a significant +regen/+recovery just on activation. Of course, if there are no NPCs in range, no debuff. I would drop the enhanceable -regen because that's just silly strong. I would greatly reduce the scaling portion of the +regen/+recovery for each NPC in range when the power is activated. So the power would be something like: 200% Regen (half-enhanceable)/30% Recovery (fully enhanceable) on activation with a 60 second duration on activation. The recharge would be lowered to 60 seconds. For each NPC hit; an additional 10% (fully enhanceable) +regen/recovery up to 10. -250% -regen/recovery on each NPC hit, non-enhanceable with a 15 second duration. The nerf to the duration is to deal with the improvement in up-time. |
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He said he did not see his recommendation as a nerf. IDK, if the devs are telling certain people the power is OP'ed but won't change it, that is straight up whack and they need to have their traps shut by the higher ups. |
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
You nerf the outlier. You bring down Drain Psyche. EvilGeko posted a good example of what it could be, and there are others.
Darth, I don't intend to be disrespectful here. I just think you haven't thought this through all the way. |
That kind of ish does nothing good for the community. They need to fix it or STFU about it being OP'ed.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Devs all the way up to Positron have said in the past that sometimes a power is more powerful than they would ordinarily make a power now, and thus no one should consider it anything but an outlier, but nevertheless its not worth altering.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
He said he did not see his recommendation as a nerf. IDK, if the devs are telling certain people the power is OP'ed but won't change it, that is straight up whack and they need to have their traps shut by the higher ups.
That kind of ish does nothing good for the community. They need to fix it or STFU about it being OP'ed. |
As far as I know, there is no higher up than Positron when it comes to the game's design.
The "certain people" the devs are telling that Drain Psyche is whacked is everyone on the internet: Arbiter Hawk stated such in the twitch stream last week. But he was only stating the blatantly obvious.
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Don't exactly understand this. When you say staircased and duration based do you mean something like:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I would probably make Drain Psyche a targeted AoE, and have its regen and recovery buffs be staircased and duration-based rather than magnitude based.
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1st target: -50% regen/-50% recovery
2nd target: -30% regen/-30% recovery
3rd target: -20% regen/-20% recovery
and so on?
As for the targeted AoE, I could only hope.
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It's OP.
Typically, the term "outliers" in the MMO world are outlying are outlying in one of two directions. Either it's too good (Drain Psyche, Blaze), or it's too bad (Blaster Voltaic Sentinel, Shout), and what that does is impact the developers' ability to modify an archetype or a powerset as a whole. For instance, if all abilities' damage were increased by 20%, Blaze would go from awesome to absolutely the best damage power in the game, bar none. Blaster Voltaic Sentinel would still do relatively light damage in that new world and wouldn't bring the powerset up to the par established by brutes, scrappers, and stalkers.
Drain Psyche is one such power, and it's on the "good" side. If the developers gave all Blasters tier 1 powers a Grant Power attribute that allowed them to gain 10% Defense for 5 seconds, that 5 seconds of +10% Defense would increase the effective health granted by Drain Psyche to absurd levels versus the effective health granted by Force of Thunder.
To touch on a point made by St. Angelius: you are 100% correct that the devs structure around other things than purely primary effect. Drain Psyche casts in 1.33 seconds (1.584 by server time), costs 13 End, and has a 1/4 ratio of duration to recharge (30s/120s). A sufficiently powerful build can keep it up 100% of the time; an absurdly powerful build can allow it to actually stack on itself briefly (lowest possible recharge is 24s). We've already established its value at 1500% regen/recovery with proper slotting.
Let's consider what Cloaking Device (blanking on the name) will be, then: assuming no other changes to the power arise from the upgrade, it will be a toggle power, cast at 0.924 secs,, and provide 300% regen with no recovery. The advantage here is that it's a toggle power; the disadvantage here is that it doesn't do anything else for the Blaster. Drain Psyche, on the other hand, allows Blasters to solo archvillains.
Look at it from this perspective. The set has been around for many years and has been adjusted "heavily" having PSW seriously nerfed. The justification was it was too strong etc.. yet they not only did not change DP but they proliferated the set to another AT.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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"Devs all the way up to Positron have said in the past that sometimes a power is more powerful than they would ordinarily make a power now, and thus no one should consider it anything but an outlier, but nevertheless its not worth altering."|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
It's OP.
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To me this does not = OP, if he felt it was then he would just say yes it is OP. Instead he verbally dances with it for a second then specifically uses the word "outlier" which does not mean OP'ed.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I can't speak for him, but from what I remember about the times we've talked about this, I think you're right. And yes, it's definitely on the list of changes that could be nice but are unlikely to happen due to the amount of work and risk involved.