While I'm excited to see everyone trying to get this badge, maybe I *am* confused about the whole "bug" thing.
16 objects get the level shift at the moment, which means everything else (which, with 16 people plus all the Lore pets, not to mention any controller/dominator pets, could be more than half the attacking force) isn't doing as much damage/debuff to Tyrant as they could. If they *were* fighting at full strength, wouldn't it increase DPS and make acquiring the badge easier? Or does the shift only come when you interact with the Lights of the Well, which (as I understand) isn't part of the RHW badge?
Also (and this is my own ignorance, I'll admit), does a level shift affect max HP?
I wish I could help out with the trial runs, but I have a recurring Thursday evening obligation and I wouldn't be home until around 8:30 central time.
As far as my thoughts, if he's immune to everything except -tohit and -res, would a higher number of, say, /Dark corruptors (Darkest Night, Howling and Tar Patch) make a significant difference? Or would /Dark controllers perhaps be better?
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
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Yes. Each dead Light of the Well increases the number of shifts being granted by 1. Thus, with all Lights left alive, there are no shifts, meaning Tyrant (54+5) is six levels higher than the players (50+3, generally). The RHW badge is given when you defeat Tyrant without ever having killed the lights, meaning that you never get any shifts.|
Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
Or does the shift only come when you interact with the Lights of the Well, which (as I understand) isn't part of the RHW badge?
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Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
Also (and this is my own ignorance, I'll admit), does a level shift affect max HP? |
Tyrant's being +6 relative to us means that he takes 15% damage, debuff, etc. from all attacks (30 while an Ultimate is going. Yeah, they double your effectiveness.). He also does 66% more damage to us, has a net 2.25x Accuracy modifier, and even gets +5% toHit, meaning that if a player has their defense up to the normal incarnate softcap, he's actually broken that, and you need 5% more defense to get back up to it.
Basically, +6 is the point where the game decides to CRUSH players for going that far, so he gets a ton of benefits.
as a hint, you NEED -regen in tandem with as much dps as possible
/traps and longbow lore pets are VERY helpful to this (traps in some ways more because the vomit on poison trap can sometimes cause tyrants flow lightning to be interrupted)
without -regen though theres almost no way possible to get him past 35-40%
as a note: tyrant doesnt have any more resistance to debuffs than most other AVs, the reason most things are not very effective is because of the purple patch and him being +6 to the league
I spam Surveillance on every AV I ever fight on my main. Tyrant has 167% resistance to -regen. I've seen him with enough -regen debuffs sitting on him to floor him three times over, and their net effect was -0.00HP/second. Every league that has brought him down by stacking on -regen should have been perfectly capable of it without the -regen, since it was doing NOTHING.
He has similarly past-100% resist to -defense debuffs, -recovery debuffs, and I think maybe -damage? Something like that.
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interesting, last i had heard he only had like 90 or 95% resist to -regen|
Originally Posted by Billy Mailman
I spam Surveillance on every AV I ever fight on my main. Tyrant has 167% resistance to -regen. I've seen him with enough -regen debuffs sitting on him to floor him three times over, and their net effect was -0.00HP/second. Every league that has brought him down by stacking on -regen should have been perfectly capable of it without the -regen, since it was doing NOTHING.
He has similarly past-100% resist to -defense debuffs, -recovery debuffs, and I think maybe -damage? Something like that. |
and -dmg is resisted by dmg resistance, so if he has 90% resist to everything like most trial AVs then he also has that much resistance to -resist and -dmg
do you know what tyrants regen is when hes down to about 15% hp?
His resist to damage is about 25%, IIRC.
As for his regen it works as follows:
Base regen is .33%/sec.
He also has an unresistable debuff on himself that scales his starting regen down based on the number of players. (All iTrial AVs scale their base states based on league size, otherwise a 12-man BAF would be stymied by anything that was challenging to a 24-man BAF). I've usually seen this somewhere in the -0.26 to -0.24%/sec range.
So, before the Favor starts in, it's something like .07-.09%/sec.
I don't actually know the amount he gets off the Favor (I think Guy Perfect once mentioned the exact number, but I was signing out at the time), and even if we pin down the exact amount, the actual amount of Hit Points he gains each second is gonna depend on his MaxHP. And MaxHP is the main thing that the iTrial scaling affects.
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interesting, he has a LOT less resist than most of the other trial AVs, and that sounds about right for regen, getting almost .1% regen with 126,000 hp is quite a bit of hp|
Originally Posted by Billy Mailman
His resist to damage is about 25%, IIRC.
As for his regen it works as follows: Base regen is .33%/sec. He also has an unresistable debuff on himself that scales his starting regen down based on the number of players. (All iTrial AVs scale their base states based on league size, otherwise a 12-man BAF would be stymied by anything that was challenging to a 24-man BAF). I've usually seen this somewhere in the -0.26 to -0.24%/sec range. So, before the Favor starts in, it's something like .07-.09%/sec. I don't actually know the amount he gets off the Favor (I think Guy Perfect once mentioned the exact number, but I was signing out at the time), and even if we pin down the exact amount, the actual amount of Hit Points he gains each second is gonna depend on his MaxHP. And MaxHP is the main thing that the iTrial scaling affects. |
i would have taken a closer look at this stuff before but my VEAT is still pretty low on the incarnate path atm
the point about poison trap is still very valid though, making him vomit and interrupting his flow lightning is VERY funny and actually pretty effective as it saves your league time avoiding the flow lighting
/Dark slotted with Diamagnetic Interface?
- -Res from Tar Patch
- -ToHit from Diamagnetic, Twilight Grasp, Darkest Night, Fearsome Stare, Dark Servant if the dope manages to stay alive for long enough
/Time would also be a good powerset to have, since it provides +Def, +Rech (both probably perma by that point I'd think), -Res and -ToHit.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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His Favor of the Well buff is a scaling Regeneration bonus that grants +3.5% for each percent of his max HP under... a certain amount. I'm pretty sure it's 40% and lower, but I've heard the event window starts displaying Favor at 50%.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
do you know what tyrants regen is when hes down to about 15% hp?
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I believe his Regeneration is effectively impossible to counter, and it really skyrockets as you approach his 10% HP goal (he shrinks at 10%). The only way to take him down is to lay on the DPS.
had thought that maybe having some Degenerative Flawless Core (75% -maxHP, 25% Toxic DoT) might help a bit, but if I'm reading the wiki correctly, only 4 stacks can be active on 1 target at a time. I'll just stick with my Diamagnetic -regen and my longbow lore.
I'm ready to get Pinnacle this badge!!! 
PhoebusApollo
PINNACLE
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from what billy mailman posted about his resists, he is effectively immune to -regen anyway so -res and high dps are basically all you got
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
His Favor of the Well buff is a scaling Regeneration bonus that grants +3.5% for each percent of his max HP under... a certain amount. I'm pretty sure it's 40% and lower, but I've heard the event window starts displaying Favor at 50%.
I believe his Regeneration is effectively impossible to counter, and it really skyrockets as you approach his 10% HP goal (he shrinks at 10%). The only way to take him down is to lay on the DPS. |
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Here is a screen shot taken when his HP was at 13%:|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
do you know what tyrants regen is when hes down to about 15% hp?
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As others have mentioned, regen debuffs appear to be useless against Tyrant. I posted about this in another thread here. I took a look at 8 screen shots taken at different points during a final fight with Tyrant. For each one, his Regeneration Rate was equal to his Base Regen + Favor of the Well Bonus - Scaling.
From the screen shot above taken at 13% HP:
Base Regen + Favor of the Well - Scaling = Regeneration Rate
460.38 HP/sec + 1170.44HP/sec - 360.30HP/sec = 1270.52HP/sec
Despite several regen debuffs being listed under his stats, none of them seem to influence the total.
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
Shouldn't the Combat Attributes reflect the numbers after resistance though? That appears to be the case with the effects of Preemptive above. Now I'm wondering if this is WAI.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
So what I'm hearing is lore pets should be chosen for max DPS. To me, that means Cimoreans. And while SB doesn't up their power recharge, it does up their mobility, so having a bunch of romans zipping around chasing Tyrant when he moves (since they're almost 100% melee with their attacks) would be ideal.
As for -resist debuffs, the more the merrier. Yes, these may stack to a maximum, but that's not to say that league members will all be alive or near him at the time. We should also consider buffs which up DPS, including ageless (more recharge = more attacks), SB, AM, etc.
What debuffs would Melt Armor and / or standard /rad debuffs provide? Those are ranged and would allow folks to get out of melee and away from the death fist.
AFAIK, Combat Attributes has always show values of debuffs and such before resistance is factored in. In the case of Preemptive, I think it's being floored so heavily be the level difference effects (Which ARE factored into Combat Attributes' display), which could also explain why one of the preemptive effects is stronger; that person probably has an Ultimate going.
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From my experience playing around with the Power Analyzer on AVs, the number shown in the Combat Attributes only has the level difference between you and the enemy factored in (i.e. the purple patch). Their resistance to the debuff is factored in after that to produce the total. (So basically what Billy said.)|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Shouldn't the Combat Attributes reflect the numbers after resistance though? That appears to be the case with the effects of Preemptive above. Now I'm wondering if this is WAI.
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If I recall correctly, the screen shot I posted was taken on a 24 man league (not a badge run) before we knew exactly how the lights bug worked, which means only some people were shifted in the league. This would account for the variation in numbers for the same power coming from different people, or even the same person in different shots.
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
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That would be more accurate, but they generally don't. The reason as it was explained to me when Real Numbers was first implemented appears to be that combat attributes taps the game engine to get those numbers, and it can get one of two things: the net value of an attribute, and the strengths of individual buffs/debuffs before they are factored into final attribute. The individual strengths don't seem to account for resistances at the point in the code where they are tapped. Attempting to factor in things like that would take more code, and cause the feature to place more load on the server, which at the time was deemed to be too expensive to do.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Shouldn't the Combat Attributes reflect the numbers after resistance though?
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I believe Resistance calculations are tricky for Real Numbers to handle specifically because as simple as resistance appears to us, the game engine uses an algorithm to handle resistable and unresistable resistance factors in a not-straight-forward way to dynamically arrive at final values. That code doesn't get any simpler when unresistable resistance effects happen to not be present.
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well my ill/emp troller did jack for about 90% of the run last night.
got killed both times after casting lore pets, once i was even outside the bowl and got hammer'd
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If you can keep them alive, yes. That Hammer of Justice can make short work of them if they're not well protected.|
Originally Posted by CatAtomic
So what I'm hearing is lore pets should be chosen for max DPS. To me, that means Cimoreans.
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Conversely, despite the impotence of the -Regen, the Freedom Corps Cataphract is about as sturdy as they come, and I've never seen one fall to Tyrant.
Just got done with a sub-5-minute Tyrant phase Really Hard Way run on Virtue. Spawned Lore just as the final phase started, and finished him before the pets despawned.
We had 12 Corruptors on the league, but I only got a look at 6 of them before the rest dropped. 2 Kins and 4 Rads, which is an astounding amount of +Rech for us and -Res for him. With all the Scourge damage plinking down on him in his lower step of HP, we were able to get him down in what appears to be record time as of this post. O-:
Didn't see this form tonight. Is it currently backburnered, or were folks just busy on Beta?
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
It didn't form because I fell asleep. RL = crazy right now.
However, I plan on making it up THIS week on Wednesday (tomorrow) at 5pm pacific, 8 eastern.
Here's what I'm reading on the forums:
1) It's all about DPS. I haven't heard people come right out and say it, but I think this badge boils down to lore pets. And while lore pets can't get a recharge boost from things like ageless or speed boost, they do increase movement speed, which means they'll chase Tyrant and continue hammering him faster.
2) It's all about DPS. A dead player means Lore pets die. So we need to keep our league alive. That means that while a couple Ageless *WILL* be helpful, the vast majority of Destinies should be Barrier. That also means we should launch lore pets immediately upon entry rather than attempting to only give him 24-ish targets to kill, then haphazardly spawning Lores later. That seems to be a consistent thread across the accounts I've seen from other successful runs, posts like "Launched lore pets, had him dead in 3 1/2 minutes". So, lore + 1/2 of the league's barriers upon entry, then the other half 60 seconds to overlap. Spam barrier upon recharge after that and keep it coming.
3) Crackle means run. No exceptions. The pets will continue to hammer him.
Let's get this on Wednesday, shall we?
Barrier + Cimerorans + Assault
Oh - and those olympian guards? Ion those on an ongoing basis. One fights incarnates with incarnate powers...
[QUOTE=CatAtomic;4285894]However, I plan on making it up THIS week on Wednesday (tomorrow) at 5pm pacific, 8 eastern.
Let's get some signups, shall we? Please specify:
Global, Alt name, Lore (Cim preferred, other high DPS too), Destiny (Barrier or Ageless), Hybrid (Assault or Support)
(I'll go first)
@CatAtomic, Jane Reaction, Cimorean T4, Ageless T4 (Barrier T4 avail), Assault T4 (Support avail)
@DarkGob, Mr. Science (abandoning my MM until we get this down), Storm Elementals T3, Ageless T3/4 (forget which, Barrier T1/2 available), no Hybrid 
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
First, thanks to everyone who's worked so hard thus far to figure out the specifics of the Tyrant fight. I think we're on track to get this badge.
Second, we're going to be forming weekly runs on Thursday around 5pm pacific, 8pm eastern to work on this badge.
Lastly, use this thread to discuss strategies, Tyrant's weaknesses and strengths and ways of combating him.
What's known so far:
1) Tyrant is immune to pretty much everything except -resist, -maxhp and -to-hit.
2) His 60' pbaoe fist is pretty much a one shot if you're in melee and have less than perfect health
3) The trial is currently bugged such that only 16 objects (pets, people) on the map get the level shift, although this has no bearing on the RHW badge
4) The prevailing opinion on strategy appears to be to buff (+def, +to-hit, +recharge) players and pets as much as possible, spam heals as much as possible and overwhelm him with DPS.
Let's discuss which interfaces, destinies and normal power sets can achieve that.