I like the idea but I'd be more inclined to go with different benefits. I won't place them in trees just list them for consideration and whoever, if anyone, can decide where and how to place them
Defense... Yes I know that the Support Hybrid does have a tree that actually provides double the added protection for pets that it does for other team mates but that is assuming the pet stay in range to benefit from them. My suggestion would be a tree that directly increased the defense, resistance, or both of any summoned pet.
Control .. I definately like your idea for this. added control for MMs and ANY type of control for Dominators, Controllers and Soldiers of Arachnos (lol you forgot one) would be great. Now since I KNOW the devs are not going to buy off on total control for other than MM pets I think your idea for a few simple commands like "Hold Ground" or "Retreat" or even "Heel" would be great. You already covered hold ground and retreat so I'll just add that "Heel" like the command used by MMs would force the pet to stay at the side of its owner. It would still have free will over who or what it attacked but this would at least make using them in situations like OUTSIDE during a TPN less of a bother.
Endurance discount .. Damage for the most part has never been the issue with most pets but I KNOW for a fact with MMs the amount of end they use up is. Nothing is more frustrating than getting into a long battle with an AV and suddenly it seems like forever since the last time your pets fired off a shot .. because they have no end left. A two minute long toggle that cut end consumption by say 20% (? to high? maybe 15%) would or could be a life saver.
Anyway I like your idea and hope the consider it 
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Problem is, due to the non-existant AI of pets, if they get too high a recharge buff, they can just end up repeatedly using the same power, according to the devs. That's why they cant really take recharge, even though their summoning powers can.
Aside from that, it looks like a good idea for a tree. The MM controls and Endurance reduction would be a godsend, not just for Doms/Controller with rascally pets and tired MMs, but even to anyone with an end-hungry build.
Would these buffs apply to non-powerset pets?
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
I would assume it would affect everything except the recharge rate of Lore pet powers. The point of one side of the tree is to let non-pet centered toons "fortify" their pet powers, and most of those aren't primary or secondary power pool pet choices.
It honestly seems too niche to me.
All of the Hybrid powers offer some degree of value to every player, regardless of build or Archetype... Command Hybrid really doesn't.
It's made specifically for one set of characters in mind; those with pets.
And while yes it's possible for most(All?) Archetypes to get a pet, it requires specific builds (PPPs). That gives it an exceedingly narrow appeal.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
How is "those with pets" any more niche than "those who play in melee"? Lets face it, just like there are many toons that find themselves heavily in melee range, and thus would benefit from the melee tree, there are plenty of toons that work heavily through pets (masterminds, soldiers of arach., controllers, and Doms) that would benefit from a Command tree. Likewise just like some toons, while not designed for melee, could benefit some from getting some melee survivability, there are some who aren't designed for pets, who could get some benefit from having a boost to the pets they do have. This applies to all of the archetypes described above, but would also apply to many defenders and villains who are running around with patron pets, and to every single character that has crafted a lore pet. As a matter of fact, I'd say its -less- niche than the control tree, which really is only helpful if you either are a controller/dominator or are teamed with one.
Quote:
I think you're missing the point to what Oathbound was saying. Basically, the 4 Hybrid pools we have now can offer some benefit, even if it's a small one, to all ATs and powerset combinations.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
How is "those with pets" any more niche than "those who play in melee"? Lets face it, just like there are many toons that find themselves heavily in melee range, and thus would benefit from the melee tree, there are plenty of toons that work heavily through pets (masterminds, soldiers of arach., controllers, and Doms) that would benefit from a Command tree. Likewise just like some toons, while not designed for melee, could benefit some from getting some melee survivability, there are some who aren't designed for pets, who could get some benefit from having a boost to the pets they do have. This applies to all of the archetypes described above, but would also apply to many defenders and villains who are running around with patron pets, and to every single character that has crafted a lore pet. As a matter of fact, I'd say its -less- niche than the control tree, which really is only helpful if you either are a controller/dominator or are teamed with one.
|
But my Trick Arrow/Archery/Power Defender would not be able to use your Pets pool at all, except maybe on Lore pets, but they're only available for 5 minutes every 15 minutes. So I could use it twice while they're out, but then I'd get no use from it for the next 10 minutes (or longer if they die before their timers expire).
The current design of the Hybrid trees are to either offer your character something that is not currently associated with their in-game role, or to enhance their in-game role. This Pets tree would only offer the latter, because only ATs/powersets with reliable (read: available more often) pets would find any use for it.
I think for there to a be a Pets Hybrid tree that was beneficial to all ATs and powersets, it would need to also include... pets.
Perhaps one branch focused on less pets/weaker pets, but more command of them (like Mastermind pets), while the other was more pets/stronger pets, but limited command (like Controller/Dominator pets). That would fit better with the intended theme of the Hybrid slot.
Edit: Also, when the devs made the decision to not allow pets to benefit from +Recharge, they didn't just flip a switch to turn that off. They had to manually go through every power available on every pet and add a "Not affected by RechargeTime buffs/debuffs" flag. Adding a power that would offer them +recharge would probably involve some new code/tech, as well as require them to revisit every power on every pet, which they're probably not that likely to want to do. I'd stick to +Damage, +ToHit, +Defense, or +Resistance for any buffs in your tree.
Quote:
How would your trick arrow/archery/power benefit any -more- from the melee pool? I'm assuming that it, like my dark/storm corr, spends less that 5 of every 15 minutes in melee range because doing so makes effective use of its best powers (nightfall/Tenebrous Tents/hurricane) all but impossible. There are many many combinations that are designed to be played entirely from range, which makes the melee tree useless to them. Likewise, the control tree offers limited advantage to the many combinations that have no direct control or aren't teamed with a controller. A chance for fear/immobilize for a scrapper with single target attacks can't really be argued to be any better for many combinations than a chance for +recharge and a benefit to your lore pets when up, even if you have no other pets. The +20% recharge alone is a more useful tool to many of the non-pet using combinations than a chance for fear, IMO. And Im saying this as someone who went with the spectral interface chance for immob tree on my staff scrapper. It's so useless Im working on switching to another.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I think you're missing the point to what Oathbound was saying. Basically, the 4 Hybrid pools we have now can offer some benefit, even if it's a small one, to all ATs and powerset combinations.
But my Trick Arrow/Archery/Power Defender would not be able to use your Pets pool at all, except maybe on Lore pets, but they're only available for 5 minutes every 15 minutes. |
Still, there really isn't anything (other than the support tree, which IMO is all but useless on Masterminds that aren't robotics, since pets usually fight AWAY from their master, not nearby) which really helps make "hybrid" pet users or helps make primary pet users more pet specialized. Would you agree?
Quote:
The melee powers increase resistance, defense, regeneration...all that would be useful to every AT in some way, shape or form. The theme behind hybrid tends to be all ATs get some benefit from it to help provide additional abilities like a different AT or to boost their current one.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
How would your trick arrow/archery/power benefit any more from the melee pool? I'm assuming that it, like my dark/storm corr, NEVER goes in to melee because doing say makes effective use of its best powers (nightfall/Tenebrous Tents/hurricane) all but impossible. There are many many combinations that are designed to be played entirely from range, which makes the melee tree useless. Likewise, the control tree really only one advantage to the many combinations that have no direct control or aren't teamed with a controller, and that's a chance for fear/immobilize. That can't really be argued to be any better for many combinations than a chance for +recharge and a benefit to your lore pets when up, even if you have no other pets. The +20% recharge alone is a more useful tool to many of the non-pet using combinations than a chance for fear, imo.
Still, there really isn't anything (other than the support tree, which imo is all but useless on Masterminds that aren't robotics, since pets usually fight AWAY from their master, not nearby) which really helps make "hybrid" pet users or helps make primary pet users more pet specialized. Would you agree? |
Your original descriptions make it so it would be useless for non-pet-commanding ATs, which most don't have any, like scrappers, tanks, etc. Yes some benefit, but only if they have pets.
As far as the other slots not being helpful to MMs and others, support helps your pets as well as your other teammates. I'm not sure of the dmg and control procs follow over to pets or not, even if they don't they still boost you and your powers. They may not make you totally overpowered, but they aren't supposed to, and you can still use it to your advantage if you wanted.
If your "Pets" tree only benefits pet users, it's not very "Hybrid".
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
I think this sums up the scope of other comments above very succinctly and I have to agree.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If your "Pets" tree only benefits pet users, it's not very "Hybrid".
|
For comparison's sake:
• Melee: Anyone can walk into melee range... and many non-melee ATs spend a lot of time there
• Assault: Every character in the game does damage... now you can do more of it
• Support: This tree offers a buff to folks around you, lots of folks have teammates, right?
• Control: It makes your controls better, or gives you controls if you don't have any
• Command: Only helps those folks who already have pets
Also, no one is arguing that all trees are equally beneficial to all characters... just that they have a use period.
Quote:
Okay I understand the concern but these days if you are in Incarnate and your even TALKING about adding any additional Hybrid power.. Who doesn't own at least 2 pets? One of the requirements to even join a Magisterium trial is you must have Destiny and LORE. Yes some characters will benefit more than others but isn't that true of other incarnate powers as well? |
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I think this sums up the scope of other comments above very succinctly and I have to agree.
For comparison's sake: Melee: Anyone can walk into melee range... and many non-melee ATs spend a lot of time there Assault: Every character in the game does damage... now you can do more of it Support: This tree offers a buff to folks around you, lots of folks have teammates, right? Control: It makes your controls better, or gives you controls if you don't have any Command: Only helps those folks who already have pets Also, no one is arguing that all trees are equally beneficial to all characters... just that they have a use period. |
Sure anyone can take and slot any of the Alpha power trees but if your character doesn't have holds or Immobs or Fear or Debuffs or whatever.. why take a Alpha that focuses on them when there are others that focus on extra damage, increased defense or resistance, more end etc, etc. There is nothing that says a COntrol tree has to be the onlynew one added they could add 3-4 or however many more they feel like. But at this point even a TANKER that has a t3 in a LORE slot has at least 2 pets for about 5 minutes.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Quote:
Not really the point though. Each hybrid tree makes an AT closer to the type it's emulating...melee makes a character more sturdy like a melee, control makes a character more controlly, support gives them team utility...Command only improves on powers *IF* you have them.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Okay I understand the concern but these days if you are in Incarnate and your even TALKING about adding any additional Hybrid power.. Who doesn't own at least 2 pets?
|
But then, why not make Command toggle a pet and the passive a boost to all pets (even allies' pets) while giving a small stack to recharge for every pet around?
This means, by choosing the Command tree, you actually get another but temporary pet...maybe a doppleganger of yourself...and a large boost to your pets while toggled. This also means, with just the passive, you're gaining benefit from nearby pets (maybe up to 10 stacks) which could include pseudopets, and helping all pets nearby.
I, personally, like the idea of a kind of Pet Hybrid tree. It could be like another niche version of Support. I think it could work.
Come up with more trees! Some people were talking about a Stealth tree, what about a Ranged tree or something?
Quote:
But look at all the Alpha Slot choices: Yes, some of them contain stuff that will only benefit specific builds (Taunt, Fear, Immob, Intangibility, etc.), but they ALL also contain things that will benefit everyone (Damage, Accuracy, Recharge, Defense, Resistance, Heal, etc.). There is no powerset combination in the game that won't get some benefit from any one of the Alpha choices.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Okay I understand the concern but these days if you are in Incarnate and your even TALKING about adding any additional Hybrid power.. Who doesn't own at least 2 pets? One of the requirements to even join a Magisterium trial is you must have Destiny and LORE. Yes some characters will benefit more than others but isn't that true of other incarnate powers as well?
Sure anyone can take and slot any of the Alpha power trees but if your character doesn't have holds or Immobs or Fear or Debuffs or whatever.. why take a Alpha that focuses on them when there are others that focus on extra damage, increased defense or resistance, more end etc, etc. There is nothing that says a COntrol tree has to be the onlynew one added they could add 3-4 or however many more they feel like. But at this point even a TANKER that has a t3 in a LORE slot has at least 2 pets for about 5 minutes. |
But the "Pets" Hybrid proposed by the OP? I mean, I have 22 level 50 characters, and only 4 would be able to use it outside of Lore's 15 minute unenhanceable recharge. And even then, only 2 of those 4 would even truly benefit (because a damage buff is not going to do much for my Traps' Acid Mortar or Dark's Dark Servant).
No one is saying that all the Hybrid choices are great for everyone, just like no one is saying all the Alpha choices are great for everyone. But every current choice can be used every build and they will benefit from it, outside of their other Incarnate abilities.
Like I said before, the current theme of the Hybrid slot is to either enhance your character's intended role (meat shield, dps, support, crowd control) or to allow them to branch off and gain abilities of another role. If a new Hybrid tree only does one of those two things, then it's accomplishing less than the other trees.
For a hypothetical Pets Hybrid tree to do the same as the other choices, it would also need to offer pets, in addition to extra pet buffs or commands. That would give it parity with the other Hybrid choices, as it would either enhance the current "pet" classes (with more pets/buffs/commands) or offer non-pet classes the ability to gain pets.
Perhaps one branch could offer a weaker pet or two, along with pet buffs and enhanced commands, and the other branch would offer a stronger pet or two, with weaker buffs and no commands (again, +Recharge for pets is not likely to happen, though).
Bringing up my own level 50s again, if the OP's suggestion worked more like the above suggestion, 15 of my 22 level 50s would be taking that Hybrid pool (that would be all my Defenders, Corruptors, Controllers, and Dominators).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
...But every current choice can be used every build and they will benefit from it, outside of their other Incarnate abilities... Like I said before, the current theme of the Hybrid slot is to either enhance your character's intended role (meat shield, dps, support, crowd control) or to allow them to branch off and gain abilities of another role. If a new Hybrid tree only does one of those two things, then it's accomplishing less than the other trees... |
First, as I pointed above, MANY power sets/combinations in the game are designed specifically to avoid melee range. A bubbler (who has an entire power designed to keep enemies from getting closer) or a storm def or a robotics/ff mastermind would get very little use from any of the melee buffs since they are entirely reliant on having enemies in melee range of you to occur. I guarantee you that many archetypes and combinations in the game spend -less- than 1/3 of their time in melee range, which is the amount of time you'd be getting the main benefit from the pets tree if you only use it with Lore. At the very least, this hybrid suggestion would be offering a slight recharge rate boost even if you had zero pets outside of your lore pets, and then, for 33% of your play time it would offer a pretty heavy buff to those pets. Considering that your hybrid slot is only able to active 50% of the time anyway, I think we're talking much less "uselessness" to non-pet archetypes than melee is to a toon like my dark/storm corr or an energy/bubbler def.
That being said...
What if the +recharge side of the tree (which gives the weaker commands but faster recharge on pets) actually affected Lore pets as well? And like other hybrid slots it offered a minor +recharge "always on" buff. In other words, you could actually get your lore pets to be up more often (40% of the time as opposed to 33%) and have some additional controls over them? THAT would make this even more beneficial to -every- player who has hybrid slot unlocked. One side of the tree gives people who have restricted access to pets (patron, lore pets, etc.) more "pet availability" and mild control while the other gives people who have pets as a main part of their play much greater control over their pets.
Ok, we have support, melee, assault, etc. but we could REALLY use a hybrid tree for all of the many toons that rely on the use of pets as their primary role in game play, or (as the name hybrid implies) want to make up for their character's weaknesses in that area.
And yes I know the other trees affect pets as well, but none really help non-pet toons become MORE pet friendly or really boost the USE of pets, just their effectiveness. So here is my proposal.
HYBRID POWER: COMMANDS
Commands Genome: This power give each of your pet attacks a 20% chance to grant you and your pets a 5%. recharge rate bonus. Unlike other recharge rate enhancements, this will increase your pets attack speed. This will stack up to four times. (If it's too hard to make these recharge rate increases work on pets, then make it a self +recharge, a pet +damage; however, if the mechanics work for the pets to be affected by the +recharge, this would be a great plus, and since this toggle is on a mandatory maximum of 50% up time, it wouldn't return us to the days of SB'ed pets running amok.)
Commands Core tree: This tree focuses on increasing the recharge rate of all of your pet powers (outside of Lore pets.) This helps non-MM characters have pets available to them more often (capping out at 35% chance for a 7% buff up to four stacks for a total of 28% recharge rate boost). It also will, at tier 3 and, above, give you access to two basic pet controls, "aggressive" and "passive", with tier 4 giving you access to a third command, "bodyguard mode." This would appeal to any non-mastermind characters that have pets with long recharges, as well as controllers and dominators who would now have some minor control over the actions of their pets.
Commands Radial tree: This tree focuses on increasing the damage your pets do and the control you have over them. This helps Mastermind, dominators, and controllers have more mastery over their pets. It trades the recharge rate buff for a smaller % damage buff, and at tier 2 you also gain access to two additional pet commands: "Stay close"- anchors pets to within 10 feet of you despite any aggro, and "defend target"- places a selected target or ally in bodyguard mode, as opposed to yourself.) At tier 3 you get access to additional pet commands: "Melee" and "ranged" which anchor them in to that fighting style. Tier 4 gives you access to the "Hold ground" command for use in heavy AoE environments. After selecting a targetted location, Clicking this command once will cause your pets to group/regroup on that location, while clicking it a second time will cause them to momentarily scatter for safety.
Wrap up:
With the addition of this hybrid tree, Masterminds, controllers, and dominators have the option of getting much more control over their pets and a moderate damage boost. This is very useful to pet-centered archetypes, and also have the advantage of making masterminds much more useful in the incarnate trials like the Magisterium and TPN. Non pet oriented archetypes who choose this hybrid power get an opportunity to have their pets available more often and are given some minor controls over them. This also fits perfectly in line with the other hybrid trees: melee, assault, support, and control.