Despite myself, I like SSA2.1 <no spoilers>


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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Wait, what?
...Oh dear, you didn't get that part, huh?

So, remember that Circle Assassin you take out before Manticore kills Psyche?

That piece of Aurora Borealis that Malaise had running amok jumped from Psyche's body before she died...into the body of the Assassin and hijacked it.

That's right, a bat-crap insane part of Aurora Borealis is now running amok.

Oh, and to make it better, you would ONLY know this if either:
A) You played that part villain-side
OR
B) During the epilogue where it tells you what all the contacts are doing, they mention the assassin's hijacked body.


 

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
Now my best friend, who also plays the game, keeps telling me to accept any plot holes as "comicbook writing". And I hold nothing against her but I honestly HATE "comic book writing" being used. Comic book writing is NOT a blank check for bad writing, it should be the bottom rung standard you avoid like rats and other flea baring creatures during the Black Plague.
Agreed. It's like the appallingly dismissive term "popcorn movie." It's just giving someone a pass for telling a crappy story.

(Not to mention, shouldn't every movie be a popcorn movie? I really, really hate that term.)


 

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Originally Posted by Issen View Post
...Oh dear, you didn't get that part, huh?
No, not really. I mean, I remember the assassin being mentioned at the end credits, but I don't remember Aurora being mentioned. I might have blinked, I guess. Seriously, though - what is it with all the hanging plot threads to future content? Our writing team have proven that they don't like to be consistent with their own storyline as letting writers tell their own story is seen as much more important. How smart is it, then, to put in story hooks that might not be resolved for years and eventually dropped entirely when a writer changes his mind?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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In spite of all the above, perhaps the most welcome change I saw was - *gasp!* - Power Makeovers for upgraded opponents. This is something I have ranted and raved about since the first iTrial where we fought level-shifted Warworks with only paper-thin hand waves to hint why our level-shifted characters were suddenly fighting against opponents that were neutralizing or flat out surpassing our shiny new scaling benefits.

This arc demonstrates how a few subtle costume changes or auras can make a familiar enemy's sudden performance boost feel more justified. Finally, we are relieved of the palette-swap failures that have endured for nearly two years. Let's hope they keep it up.


Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!

 

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Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight View Post
In spite of all the above, perhaps the most welcome change I saw was - *gasp!* - Power Makeovers for upgraded opponents. This is something I have ranted and raved about since the first iTrial where we fought level-shifted Warworks with only paper-thin hand waves. This arc demonstrates how a few subtle costume changes or auras can make a familiar enemy's sudden performance boost feel more justified. Finally, we are relieved of the palette-swap failures that have endured for nearly two years. Let's hope they keep it up.
I honestly would have liked to see them go farther, or at the very least have "upgraded" factions with more than one minion model, one lieutenant model and one boss model, but I do appreciate what you mean. There are few better examples of how to power-up an enemy inappropriately than Director 11's infinite mine filed and the level 54 Malta goons that punch Tankers to death if they don't have an Alpha slotted. I get that the upgraded factions are kinda' sorta' using the same powers they always were, but doing more damage with them, but like you said - the appearance changes do make a difference.

What I want to point out, though, is a bit of inspired writing that really sold the arc to me. "Even ghost lady get punched!" This right there genius writing. It's easy to say "Oh, so and so now has more power so he hits harder." It's cheesy and it's kind of a cop out. But to say that "So and so can now PUNCH GHOSTS!" is a very different proposition. Now, granted, we punch ghosts all the time as players, but in our case it's gameplay and story segregation, mostly because having enemies immune to physical attacks sucks, as Diablo 2 is shows clear evidence for. But for certain characters, being able to become intangible and thus avoid the brute strength of supercharged thugs is a key character aspect. Powering up said thugs in a way that allows them to bypass phasing entirely speaks not just of "more power," but rather of a power upgrade of a fundamentally different nature.

Why I say SSA2.1 is "inspiring" is it raises a lot of interesting questions that end up applying to my own characters and my own storytelling, and ultimately inspire me to try and come up with interesting answers. As you may or may not have noticed, trying to pick a Judgement power for what is an otherwise physical fighter character of mine has made me question just how far I can take a "physical" character without introducing some kind of technological or supernatural element. How does Xanta cut ghosts, how does her gear not break, how can she resist psychic attacks, how can she hack at gods? Well, if the Trolls can punch ghosts, then why can't I find an answer to my problems? They go along the same lines.

What I'm saying is the writers didn't take the easy way out. They didn't just give us low-level factions with a high level number and higher stats, they actually considered how these people's powers could expand laterally as well as increase upwards. It's not just stronger punches, but rather punches that hit in ways you don't expect them to. And it's not just punches, either. The power we're talking about affects them in other ways beyond more power and a costume aura. It affects them on a psychological and ideological level, and to me, THAT is inspired.

Honestly, if SSA2.1 is a sign of things to come, I might be inclined to change my disposition back to the puppy-eyed fan I was back a few years ago. This and the Incarnate changes with Dark Astoria really seem to be turning the game around from an EA title back to what Paragon Studios used to stand for when they were still called NCNC and, hell, what they stood for when they still worked under Cryptic and were down to 15 people. It's a sign of good things, and I can easily recommend this story arc to anyone who's looking for a good story.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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I get where you're coming from, especially with the reasoning. The visual queues were most important to me because iTrials tend to be rather sparse on story content for sake of gameplay (larger groups of players tend to focus more on Scrapper-lock than Lore-reading), so we must rely on what we see to tell the story most of the time. Story Arcs have the benefit of expanded lore so they can take it a step further to demonstrate what effects those visual queues represent, and that's a good thing.

This is important since the Devs are loathe to stop making Incarnate Trials, which I still believe are the worst content addition ever made to this game because it reinforces the elements that oppose the openness and accessibility which makes CoX unique. As such, visual queues are a nice first-step into explaining why our godlike powers do not feel as godlike when engaged in these activities.

To explain my reasoning: Dungeons and Dragons had levels representing character development as well, but it also had creatures operate on a CR system. Stronger enemies were more visually and/or descriptively impressive in scope to more accurately represent the illusion of progress. Never was there a Goblin that could challenge a level 10, who likely was taking on young Dragons by that stage (and if you did encounter one, he was probably a Demi-God among his kind or similarly empowered far beyond his physical limits).

Video Games have generally lost sight of that sense of Scope, granting phenomenal power gains without increasing the scale of visual or descriptive queues of new foes to provide a justifiable sense of progress. I would blame Dragon Warrior, but this probably goes as far back as Wizardry or Ultima. For that reason, I've always found it troubling that one Warrior minion could very easily wipe out every Clockwork and Hellion in Atlas Park if he so chose when he's basically just a guy with a sword against psychic-empowered automatons and a demon-summoning cult. But if you throw him in some enchanted plate mail with a magic sword and glowing red eyes, then I might be more convinced.


Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!

 

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I agree with you about Incarnate Trials, but for more than just the reasons you've listed. Yes, on a technical level, raids are a fail in a game that had up to that point been pretty loose with what it expected you to do and how it expected you to play, and the "soup of effects" mosh pit that most of those are drowns any sembalnce of story. I ran a BAF yesterday and I did my best to read NPC dialogue as it was occurring, and I simply couldn't. They drop several giant four-line text boxes at a time, some of which show up behind my Trial window and I'm forced to pay far more attention to "Xanta has received a second warning!" and "Siege is being reinforced!" than to flavour text.

But that's really not my biggest concern with Trials. Those are technical problems, and technical problems can be fixed, or at least the game designed to minimise their impact. Where my beef with iTrials lies is in the type of story they tell, which is one of industrial warfare even if the "plot" is different, one of planning and preparation, and one where the individual really doesn't matter so much. What matters is the collective, and an individual's sum total of contribution is fitting into a slot and doing a job that has no real feedback. What drew me to City of Heroes and to fiction in general was the sense of mystery and exploration, but above all, the sense of adventure. iTrials are not an adventure, they are a job. Once in a while, sure, I can run them, but as the sole path to progression they were meant to be? No, they make me feel like a grunt in an army, not like a super hero with his own name and identity.

SSA1 tried to remedy this by painting everyone but us as incompetent, rude and obnoxious, and in so doing it failed because that's just dragging the game through the mud in order to make the player feel less crap. SSA2, in my eyes, does a much better job of feeling like an adventure because it's a genuine mystery and despite still including all of the Freedom Phalanx (or what's left of it), they're not presented as losers. Instead, you have the Meteor Man problem of "You can't be everywhere, you can't save everyone." which forces the Phalanx to split up and gives the story a legitimate reason for the player to be his own named entity.

SSA2 is an interesting story that involves signature NPCs and plays to their strengths, but still leaves the leading role to the player without destroying the other characters. And that's a win!


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
iTrials are not an adventure, they are a job

A-

Men.

Zone events, story arcs, and the like are much better and more entertaining storytelling tools than the iTrials could ever hope to be. The construction of iTrail instances is a chore unto itself, let alone the coordination required once you're in there unless you're running with a fully-experienced team. I could say the same about Hamidon, but let's digress from legacy content as Mothership Raids, Seed of Hamidon Raids, Invasions, and Zone Events are all much easier to coordinate. iTrails are not a pastime - they're a necessity to be fulfilled for completion or improvement, little more.

Regardless, SSA2.1 deserves a TON of praise for the direction it takes after the poor design choices we have experienced recently. We need more of everything it offers.

EDIT: On another note, I thought Neo-DA, short of lacking a Zone Event, was the perfect archetype of what CoX should follow for future content. Instead of Task Forces with member requirements, we are presented Story Arcs that are functionally Task Forces without the prerequisites and lock-in. I have taken friends through some of these multiple times and had a blast.


Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!

 

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
Now my best friend, who also plays the game, keeps telling me to accept any plot holes as "comicbook writing". And I hold nothing against her but I honestly HATE "comic book writing" being used. Comic book writing is NOT a blank check for bad writing, it should be the bottom rung standard you avoid like rats and other flea baring creatures during the Black Plague. "Comic book writing" is what's been causing problems for people to get into and enjoy the comic book industry. It's as bad as when Joe Quesada said "It's magic, we don't have to explain it."

As a funny note, when I presented a story arc for the same friend to look at, she immediately called me on my bad writing, I called her own letting the devs get away with it and the response was: "I don't expect good storytelling from the Devs anymore, I still have hope for you."
Comic book writing isn't necessarly bad writing. But there are certain tropes which are required in order to tell an entertaining story. Villains have to have stupidly complex plots. Heroes have to walk into the traps. Otherwise everything will resolve itself one-way or another on the first page, and you have no story. If you haven't been using the tropes, it may be why your AE attempts are getting criticised.

If you want an explanation, Terry Pratchett's explanation for why vampires follow the "rules" applies. Heroes walk into obvious traps because if they didn't the villains would just kill them.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Comic book writing isn't necessarly bad writing. But there are certain tropes which are required in order to tell an entertaining story. Villains have to have stupidly complex plots. Heroes have to walk into the traps. Otherwise everything will resolve itself one-way or another on the first page, and you have no story. If you haven't been using the tropes, it may be why your AE attempts are getting criticised.
Please understand I don't mean to insult you when I say this, but this is complete nonsense. Tropes may not be bad, but they are never necessary. Villains don't need to have stupid plans and heroes don't need to be stupidly genre-blind. It's up to the writer to make people's actions, reactions and plans seem reasonable and logical. To say that "oh, you have to use shoddy writing" is merely an excuse for not doing your job as a writer.

To restrict ourselves to this game, let's look at Dark Astoria. Tielekku banished the Banished Pantheon that Mot is a member of once already, and she has already been notified of the rise of the Banished Pantheon cultists in the Scroll of Tielekku arc. It's logical to believe that to defeat Mot now, you'd need to summon the goddess to banish him. Given Mot's actions and influence over the Tsoo, it's also not unreasonable to believe that he is afraid of the goddess and is pushing Tub Chi towards summoning and weakening her. Given this, the Letter Writer's plan to make what seems like the obviously correct choice is not a stupid decision. It is a sound, prudent decision given the circumstances. You would, in fact, have to specifically expect a plot twist to believe that this will fail, and the only reason I knew it would fail was because it took place with the Letter Writer's contact bar filled in only a third of the way. I KNEW there were many more missions left to do, so I knew this couldn't be the end, but if I didn't have this information, I'd be positive that would be conclusion.

Inversely, Mot's plan is really neither stupid nor convoluted. He wants more power and he wants to consume everyone he can. He knew the Tsoo wanted to summon the goddess Tielekku, so he egged them on. Whether Tub Chi stabbed her with the god-killer sword or not is irrelevant to Mot, because all he wanted was the goddes' power. Whether it's all within Tielekku or half in her and half in Tub Chi doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In fact, having her weakened might have helped, or, as it turns out, would not have made a lick of difference. His plan is simple, solid and quite direct, and the only reason the heroes fail is because they're pressed for time and forced to rely on what they think they know, as opposed to tracking down every bit of David Hazen's journal. From the Letter Writer's perspective, it's easy to see how he may see the bulk of Hazen's research and conclude that he understands what the man was trying to do. The VERY FIRST clue that all may not be as it seems appears just moments before the plan backfires HARD, so it's not like the player had tons of warning.

About the only part of Dark Astoria that's telegraphed a mile in advance is Marcus Valerius' fate, and only because his personal story arc comes up too early in the story. However, cut out that story and Dark Astoria makes sense, presents a compelling, believable and still very tense story, and does so without insulting my intelligence with hack writer tropes.

Any City of Heroes writer pretty much HAS to remember that his audience is smarter than this. Sure, not everyone cares about the story at all, but those of us who do enjoy these stories because they're imaginative, exciting and above all INTELLIGENT. Dark Astoria is an intelligent story, which makes it great even despite its many minor, niggling flaws. The same goes for SSA2.1, as well. City of Heroes can do better and has done better than to subsist on the dumber of comic book plots.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Eh, no, Dark Astoria is just the same as every other story in CoH and in comic books (with added Lovecraft cliche factor). The writer might have more successful in disguising the story mechanisms for you, but I wasn't impressed.

It might have been more to your taste, but it certainly wasn't better writing.

And I think the actual character you are playing influences how you view a story. If it suits the character you rate it more highly. I played DA as a robot, so was obviously completely unmoved by threats of soul sucking and bodyshock scenery. I've played other arcs as a rather dim thug, so prefer ones that treat me that way than those written for a scheming evil genius.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Eh, no, Dark Astoria is just the same as every other story in CoH and in comic books (with added Lovecraft cliche factor). The writer might have more successful in disguising the story mechanisms for you, but I wasn't impressed.
Then you have no taste. Either that or you're being intentionally obtuse, and forgetting your own argument. You insisted that "tropes" have to be used or a story is no good. I showed you one where the tropes you listed - walking into an obvious trap and a villain being undone by his own over-complex plan - are not used, and now you're moving the goal posts from "tropes are necessary" to "I didn't like it." I don't like pie. It doesn't mean it's not sweet.

You can call anything a "cliché," but that doesn't make it true. You can call anything a trope just because it's vaguely similar to something you read on TVtropes, but that doesn't make it true, either. Yes, Dark Astoria has the heroes walk into a trap. It is by far and wide NOT an obvious one. In fact, the entire story is concocted so as to suggest that that's the right solution to the problem, with the only foreshadowing to it coming too late and being too ambiguous to prevent the trap from being sprung. If you want to argue that that's not the case, forming an actual argument to counter it might be useful, because just telling me it's obvious doesn't carry much weight.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
And I think the actual character you are playing influences how you view a story. If it suits the character you rate it more highly. I played DA as a robot, so was obviously completely unmoved by threats of soul sucking and bodyshock scenery. I've played other arcs as a rather dim thug, so prefer ones that treat me that way than those written for a scheming evil genius.
If you think so, you're wrong. I have so far run Dark Astoria on two separate and mostly polarly opposite characters and found the plot twist near the end to work just fine for both of them. I have no idea how "soul sucking and bodyshock scenery" relates to tropes of predictability and genre blindness, but even so, one of the characters I played the story with was a sentient, highly-intelligent, self-aware machine and it fit just fine within the broader storyline of Dark Astoria. The other, as I've explained elsewhere, is a direct, brutish, unsophisticated fighter, and she fits within Dark Astoria just as well. Trying to write an argument away with "it only works for you" is not a winning proposition unless you have an actual argument to explain that position.

And again, how does what type of character I play have anything at all to do with the tropes you mentioned? Are you implying that if my character were somehow hyper-intelligent he'd have seen through the situation and seen the trap and the story would be over? Because A) that would be going against clear evidence, which is both illogical and irrational, B) it doesn't really accomplish anything since the scene with Mot and Tielekku is not a deliberate trap so much as a misunderstanding of the clues and C) it doesn't really change much of anything since the player would still have to track down Hazen's diaries and finish the ritual regardless. I suppose not losing Tielekku would have made this easier to do, but not by much.

There's a difference between having a hero who's smart and aware and one who's omniscient to the plot. You CAN create a trap that works without requiring the hero to be stupid, and you can have a hero win against a strong plan without requiring the villain to be stupid. No-one is infallible. Everyone makes mistakes. The trick is to write a story where those mistakes come off as genuine, rather than the result of either the hero or the villain being an idiot or intentionally impaired. Dark Astoria pulls that trick off because the situation it presents which turns into a trap is logical and reasonable, and because the villain's modus operandi makes sense once you realise that Mot is more powerful than it has let on.

It's not just a question of me liking the story. This is a competently written story that makes sense and has a logical progression of events. You're free to not like it, but unless you have an actual argument for why it's not technically competently written, you can't really dispute that it's good.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Never was there a Goblin that could challenge a level 10, who likely was taking on young Dragons by that stage (and if you did encounter one, he was probably a Demi-God among his kind or similarly empowered far beyond his physical limits).
Sure there was: You just made that goblin a level 15 fighter. Giving monsters class levels was possible even back in 2nd. ed. (although rather obscure and hard to do, mechanically) Heck, having a medium-high level party come up against a standard cannon-fodder monster but giving them a few class levels to change the entire flow of the encounter is one of the absolute classcs of the game.


"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."

 

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Comic book writing isn't necessarly bad writing. But there are certain tropes which are required in order to tell an entertaining story. Villains have to have stupidly complex plots. Heroes have to walk into the traps. Otherwise everything will resolve itself one-way or another on the first page, and you have no story. If you haven't been using the tropes, it may be why your AE attempts are getting criticised.

If you want an explanation, Terry Pratchett's explanation for why vampires follow the "rules" applies. Heroes walk into obvious traps because if they didn't the villains would just kill them.
See, I think there is a difference between a trap that the hero runs afoul of because of clever anticipation and excellent use of stealth and surprise and one that is the archetypal Obvious Trap™ that all but has big flashing neon arrows denoting where the hero has to go to be undone. If the writing is good, it is not necessarily going to follow that tropes are going to be involved. There are legitimately surprising and innovative traps and/or attacks to be made upon heroes that do not necessarily involve an Obvious Trap™ or an Obvious Trope™.

More specifically to the point at hand, the cover art for SSA1.4 suggested an epic duel between Statesman and Wade, but what we ended up with was Statesman flopping like a fish and "welcoming his death" with a big smile on his face after strolling into what was the textbook definition of an Obvious Trap™. Whether it was colossal arrogance or Biblical-scale stupidity that was the official "motivation," it left a horrible, horrible aftertaste.

There is a faction of folks that reduces everything everywhere to some sort of a trope. Perhaps that is somehow true on a technical level, but even if one concedes the point for say, "Casablanca," the writing and execution are so skillful that it does not matter a whit--- the experience is wonderful. It does not follow as the night the day that you must prepare for the hero to be unreasonably stupid in order to have a plot. Troy Hickman has demonstrated that, and used the City of Heroes characters to boot.

At some point for some heroes, you DO have to suspend some rational thinking in order to have a plot. Whenever I see Superman cocking his arm to punch an antagonist, I realize that if he did what I would do, ie, punch the bad guy 50,000 times with super-strength in the space of one second, the story, as you say, would be over right there. Even if you have to have such Winks and Nods, with skillful writing, the journey is enjoyable nonetheless. With poor writing, "Count the Tropes" becomes a more agreeable activity than following the bad plot and execution.


"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"

"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."

 

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I rather have a completely different view of the iTrials, only because there are arcs and content to connect to the various different Trials.

First Ward explains why Marauder wound up being the guard of Lambda.

Quite a mid of the 10-15 Praetorian content has you dealing with the BAF.

Praetor Keyes' entire arc in Neutropolis explains his utter breakdown during the Reactor Trial, something that actually confused me until I went back and played that content. At first, I was always sure he was just nuts, but it's more of "I've absolutely HAD it with this crap!"

The Underground one again, sort of requires some First Ward because of Praetorian Vanessa DeVore, but even then, the Devouring Earth twist at the end (The Avatar) is nice, especially with how they explain it.

My only complaint with Trials so far is that Tyrant's fight still feels a little anti-climactic comparatively to Keyes, where there was a build-up of suspense and what not throughout the entire trial right up until Keyes himself pops up and fights you.


 

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Originally Posted by Melancton View Post
At some point for some heroes, you DO have to suspend some rational thinking in order to have a plot. Whenever I see Superman cocking his arm to punch an antagonist, I realize that if he did what I would do, ie, punch the bad guy 50,000 times with super-strength in the space of one second, the story, as you say, would be over right there. Even if you have to have such Winks and Nods, with skillful writing, the journey is enjoyable nonetheless. With poor writing, "Count the Tropes" becomes a more agreeable activity than following the bad plot and execution.
Superman is actually a pretty good writer's challenge, because you have a character that's badly overpowered within the world he exists in, and yet writers manage to give him believable stories time and again. OK, so maybe you could have Superman punch some bad guy hard enough to break every bone in his body. Wouldn't this kill him, though? Because as I remember, Superman is big on not killing his enemies. All of a sudden, you have a moral question come up to solve a technical writing problem of how to equalise power levels. Yes, Superman can snap a bank robber's spine in half, but isn't that a BAD thing? Consider the whole "world of carboard" concept that Tyrant actually does in his own personal story mission. He hasn't used his full power in a long time because he worries damaging the city and killing the people, but now that there are no people left and the city is lost, he can safely let loose.

Writing an coherent story isn't hard, but it's not exactly easy. You still need to plan ahead, know your characters and actively look for possible plot holes so you can explain around them without having to bridge the gap with tropes. If it transpires that the villain's plan should have been obvious to the hero, you can't just shrug and say "Derp! It's comic books! Heroes is stupid or we wouldn't have a story!" and expect a thinking reader to buy it. You need to either give a reason why the hero saw the obvious plot but walked into it anyway (which the Statesman never got) or otherwise explain why the plot may have been obvious to us as readers, but the hero's perception of it was somehow obfuscated.

Or, you know, make a trap that is NOT obvious. You don't have to stick with the very first idea that pops into your head and roll with it when it's proven to have more holes in it than Swiss cheese at a firing range.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Heroes is stupid
Sam, you continue to amaze me with your command of English. Here you use deliberately poor grammar as an ironic tool to reinforce the point, which is a VERY subtle nuance! *doffs hat*

I am reasonably conversant in a language that is not my native tongue but don't look for ME to demonstrate anything CLOSE to that level of skill!

Meanwhile, back at your main point:

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Superman is actually a pretty good writer's challenge, because you have a character that's badly overpowered within the world he exists in, and yet writers manage to give him believable stories time and again. OK, so maybe you could have Superman punch some bad guy hard enough to break every bone in his body. Wouldn't this kill him, though? Because as I remember, Superman is big on not killing his enemies. All of a sudden, you have a moral question come up to solve a technical writing problem of how to equalise power levels.
I agree with the specific challenges of writing for Superman you note, and about plotlines in general.

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Writing an coherent story isn't hard, but it's not exactly easy. You still need to plan ahead, know your characters and actively look for possible plot holes so you can explain around them without having to bridge the gap with tropes.
Which is pretty much in a nutshell what separates the writers we enjoy from those we do not.


"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"

"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."

 

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Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
Sure there was: You just made that goblin a level 15 fighter. Giving monsters class levels was possible even back in 2nd. ed. (although rather obscure and hard to do, mechanically) Heck, having a medium-high level party come up against a standard cannon-fodder monster but giving them a few class levels to change the entire flow of the encounter is one of the absolute classcs of the game.
That would be a pen-and-paper definition of palette-swapping, although if you were to give them magical glowing armor, demon wings, and bulk them up a bit then there would be visual queues that they're not your typical cannon fodder. Goblins are a CR of 1/3 or 1/4 if memory serves, and they are not player characters. Unless you're reading a certain webcomic. I could be mistaken, but I think it was 3.5 that provided the most opportunistic methods for template conversion.

Besides, the intended point was that the concept of exponential (or even incremental) statistical scaling without equal perceptive escalation scaling ruins the illusion of progress. Most people would not desire to start out fighting dragons only to ultimately reach level 20 and fight a mouse who is infinitely more powerful only because the DM said so. The Vorpal Rabbit of Monty Python was played out as a parody of this scenario, perhaps only without gaming as a consideration for the joke.


Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!

 

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Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight View Post
Besides, the intended point was that the concept of exponential (or even incremental) statistical scaling without equal perceptive escalation scaling ruins the illusion of progress. Most people would not desire to start out fighting dragons only to ultimately reach level 20 and fight a mouse who is infinitely more powerful only because the DM said so. The Vorpal Rabbit of Monty Python was played out as a parody of this scenario, perhaps only without gaming as a consideration for the joke.
I have to both agree and disagree with this idea. Let me explain.

I agree completely that just bumping enemies' levels without making them visually and thematically more threatening is a big mistake, and it's a mistake our development team has done many times before. The level 54 Malta were a HUGE fumble, and dropping the Rikti down to show up in the teens is just bad. The Rikti are supposed to be this huge, planetary threat, their power armour soldiers being juggernauts unto themselves... Yet your Training-enhancement-using wimp of a level 10 character can take out one of their elite armoured soldiers. Why were we afraid of them, again?

A friend of mine once joked "Never judge a man by the colour of his name." and that phrase has stuck with me. I don't care to fight seemingly insignificant enemies attacking me with seemingly feeble attacks that nevertheless destroy me just because their names happen to display in purple. The problem of the "Level 50 Hellions" is a problem of the game as a whole, and it has come into play many times before. Even today, seeing basic Freakshow in the 50s as from the various Portal Corp missions despite them not really spawning past level 35 in the regular game is just baffling.

To this effect, the Pandora's Box enemies being powered-up versions of low-level critters, but now with a strange aura and a magical glow in their eyes and a brand new outlook on the world is exactly the right way to go. In fact, Dark Astoria before them was a great idea, too. It showed us how the Banished Pantheon and the Tsoo here are different from what they are in the rest of the city. They're bigger, meaner, more powerful and visibly more super-charged than they are anywhere else. You can tell that this is a whole different ballgame for them, and that's good!

However, I disagree with the notion that just because a person doesn't appear powerful outwardly, he shouldn't BE powerful in practice. One of my favourite bad guys in this game is Requiem, and I like him specifically because he's a relatively tiny guy who's nevertheless extremely powerful. I enjoy the Japanese concept of great powers in small packages, where the ideal is not simply having destructive abilities, but having them in a form that's convenient, mobile and compact. If, for instance, you had to choose between a Superman at Earth's end gun size weapon and a Noisy Cricket type weapon with the same destructive capacity, or indeed even more of it, then clearly the latter is the superior technology. Because you don't have to be Superman to carry it around and it has to be easier to aim.

Personally, I've always believed that an archvillain's minions should keep growing bigger and bigger as they become stronger, but the archvillain himself should still be small, demonstrating that not only is he as powerful as his most powerful lieutenants and then some, but he has that power, plus speed, agility and brains on top of it. A big bulky slow monster is a tradeoff of speed and mobility for strength and toughness. But if you could make that monster smaller and faster without losing any of its strength, you end up with something that's considerably more scary.

I get that size and apparent power are definitely good to have on stronger enemies, but I still feel THE strongest should not be the biggest. Essentially, I subscribe to the Vegeta principle.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
However, I disagree with the notion that just because a person doesn't appear powerful outwardly, he shouldn't BE powerful in practice. One of my favourite bad guys in this game is Requiem, and I like him specifically because he's a relatively tiny guy who's nevertheless extremely powerful. I enjoy the Japanese concept of great powers in small packages, where the ideal is not simply having destructive abilities, but having them in a form that's convenient, mobile and compact. If, for instance, you had to choose between a Superman at Earth's end gun size weapon and a Noisy Cricket type weapon with the same destructive capacity, or indeed even more of it, then clearly the latter is the superior technology. Because you don't have to be Superman to carry it around and it has to be easier to aim.

Personally, I've always believed that an archvillain's minions should keep growing bigger and bigger as they become stronger, but the archvillain himself should still be small, demonstrating that not only is he as powerful as his most powerful lieutenants and then some, but he has that power, plus speed, agility and brains on top of it. A big bulky slow monster is a tradeoff of speed and mobility for strength and toughness. But if you could make that monster smaller and faster without losing any of its strength, you end up with something that's considerably more scary.

I get that size and apparent power are definitely good to have on stronger enemies, but I still feel THE strongest should not be the biggest. Essentially, I subscribe to the Vegeta principle.
I agree with this opinion, but that it should remain an exception rather than the norm or that there should always be some lore to back said opponent's exponential combat ability even if they don't physically appear that threatening. We have many scenarios in CoX that fail in this department, so that's where my argument comes from. Both the lore and visual representation of our ever-increasing challenges typically do not follow the sliding scale of villain threat or the sorting algorithm of evil.

Yes, I know tropes should not always be followed but they are useful for a reason.

To follow the DBZ example - I could understand Cell's eventual power level because he started out fairly weak (relative to the main characters), but his unique body chemistry steadily adapted to fight opponents much stronger than himself from the outset WHILE he was absorbing other beings to further increase his power. However, seeing a bunch of Ki-less androids wipe the floor with Vegita and Trunks felt extremely rediculous considering that Trunks just put Freeza AND his Father down with almost no effort whatsoever not long before this happened. If memory serves, there was no Applied Phlebotinum or secret origin explaining their vast power which is precisely why this felt so absurd to me.


Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!

 

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Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight View Post
I agree with this opinion, but that it should remain an exception rather than the norm or that there should always be some lore to back said opponent's exponential combat ability even if they don't physically appear that threatening.
Oh, of course, this I agree with. I like concept of having an enemy faction's progression revolve around some kind of specialisation involving tradeoffs right up until the very end. Say you start meeting bigger monsters, but they're slower and lack magical ability. You also meed powerful mages, but they lack physical strength. That sort of thing. So the biggest lieutenants before the end boss are some kind of extreme example of creatures that shouldn't exist, that are barely kept alive just long enough to fight you, but they're damn strong! And then you reach the end boss, and he's a perfectly balanced, perfectly healthy ordinary guy who still has his mind, and he has all of the powers of his henchmen without any of the drawbacks. Oh. Crap!

To me, showing how greater and greater power takes a higher and higher toll on the mind and the body is a good way to show that power can't expand infinitely, and that the super enemies you're fighting are just about as strong as enemies can get. It's a hard limit. Then you throw a big bad for whom this limit doesn't apply, who controls this kind of power at base performance... And then you imply that if he put his back into it, he could go so far beyond it's scary, and you have the build for an awesome boss fight.

Showing that "this" is how strong your enemies can become and still pay a heavy cost for it, then showing someone who not only pays no cost at all, but doesn't even seem to be trying is, to me, the perfect build.

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Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight View Post
To follow the DBZ example - I could understand Cell's eventual power level because he started out fairly weak (relative to the main characters), but his unique body chemistry steadily adapted to fight opponents much stronger than himself from the outset WHILE he was absorbing other beings to further increase his power. However, seeing a bunch of Ki-less androids wipe the floor with Vegita and Trunks felt extremely rediculous considering that Trunks just put Freeza AND his Father down with almost no effort whatsoever not long before this happened. If memory serves, there was no Applied Phlebotinum or secret origin explaining their vast power which is precisely why this felt so absurd to me.
The androids were explained to have some kind of "infinite energy" device which essentially allowed them to generate unlimited amounts of power. The Sayins, for as powerful as they were, were still limited to the raw energy they could produce, the "power levels" that Scouters used to measure until Vegeta crushed them all in anger. To me, it was actually a lot more surprising to see Cell utterly dominated them as he did, considering they should have had "infinite energy." I don't know if that's an artefact of the dub or the subs or if the Dragonball Kai recut of the series added or subtracted something, but that's how I read it.

And, actually, bringing up the Cell saga is a good idea, because it shows the price one pays for excessive power. Trunks bulked up and produced so much muscle mass and energy he could have snapped Cell in half, but he became so heavy and awkward he could never even come close to landing a single punch. It was a novel concept in a show which had previously been all about raw power - you CAN have too much. It then became a question of not JUST how much power you can have, but how much you can have while still being fast enough to use it.

DBZ is a good example of a fictional universe where bigger isn't necessarily better. At least, it became one after Akira forgot about the "Great Ape" nonsense


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Melancton View Post
Sam, you continue to amaze me with your command of English.
He is quite fluent. But then he had to go and improperly use "an" where he should've used "a"...

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Writing an coherent story
Editor! Editor, where are you?!


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I honestly would have liked to see them go farther, or at the very least have "upgraded" factions with more than one minion model, one lieutenant model and one boss model, but I do appreciate what you mean.
[snip]

What I'm saying is the writers didn't take the easy way out. They didn't just give us low-level factions with a high level number and higher stats, they actually considered how these people's powers could expand laterally as well as increase upwards. It's not just stronger punches, but rather punches that hit in ways you don't expect them to. And it's not just punches, either. The power we're talking about affects them in other ways beyond more power and a costume aura. It affects them on a psychological and ideological level, and to me, THAT is inspired.
On revitalized enemies that pack a stronger punch, this trend that started with the Tsoo and Banished Pantheon has for a while reminded me of Punch-Out!!, the classic boxing game where if you became champ, you then had to face much more competent versions of the foes you had beaten as a challenger. I like the approach.


Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level

 

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Originally Posted by gec72 View Post
On revitalized enemies that pack a stronger punch, this trend that started with the Tsoo and Banished Pantheon
I would argue that it started with the Clockwork King breaking out the Psychic Clockwork in the Lady Grey Task Force.


 

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Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
Editor! Editor, where are you?!
I caught that in the quote in question, which made it too late to fix. I was originally planning to say something like "an interesting story" but changed my word choice, forgetting to change the preposition in the process. Plus, I freely admit that I don't proof-read most of my forum posts. That and I have a habit of posting stories I've written before I proof-read them, only later updating them with proof-read versions of the same.

I suspect that I might put more effort into it if I were getting paid for this, though. Or if I had an editor who gets paid to do that. I'd kill for one of those

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Originally Posted by BViking View Post
I would argue that it started with the Clockwork King breaking out the Psychic Clockwork in the Lady Grey Task Force.
Yeah, that was just stupid, but I assume it was simply a shortcut. Electric-themed Clockwork didn't exist in the 40s, but psychic ones did, so whoever designed the mission either figured "What the heck? We'll tell he unlocked his own psychic powers!" and threw them in anyway... Or just didn't know better. The Psychic Clockwork in Lady Grey's TF are an example of how to do an enemy powerup WRONG.

Incidentally, you may be pleasantly surprised about just this subject in SSA2.1


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.