Any love for RotP on Incarnate missions?
By
CinnderScot,
Posted on: 2012-06-03 24:11 in Player Questions
You get 15 seconds of untouchable.
Use barrier.
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
it usually only takes a few seconds for the level shifts to reapply when rezzing, most of the time before the untuochable status wears off
i think the thing that he is talking about more is the fact that baddies can still get attacks off at you right as you hit the rez and kill you before the untouchable even applies
Yeah, I'm not seeing the 15 secs of untouchable. The now-purple EB ganks me the moment I start to rise.
Something doesn't jive here.
Dark Armor has the same rez, just without the damage, as does my Warshade, just without the stun. I play to iDark Armor characters and my MFing Warshade. I notice the lag in level shift application, which is only a few seconds, but never longer than my untouchable period.
I guess all I can say is your experience is nothing like mine.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Maybe in that difference between powers lies the key to a fix, if the devs are looking into this.
If I had 15 seconds -- even if none of my other powers were useful -- I could at least run away, heal, and come back to fight again. I quite literally never get the chance to move from my spot of double-death.
I don't suppose you're a blaster, controller, dominator, or mastermind are you?
The epic pool versions of RotP still have a 0.25 second delay before the Untouchable takes effect, so if you're surrounded by a group of baddies with no other target they'll probably kill you the instant you rez.
The versions in Fiery Aura (Tanker, Scrapper, Brute) don't have the delay.
If that's the case, maybe should file a bug report to see if it's intended?
Pulled my Plant/Psy/Fire Dom out of mothballs to get my Hybrid T4 and experienced this several times. If you pop RotP and have enemies near it's a suicide button. Untouchable my fiery ***.
Yep, blaster, with RotP from Epic Pool.
Thanks Code; that explains why it's doing what it's doing. So it's not technically a bug, but it still makes it a serious nerf when combined with the level shift delay. Especially since I can't do anything during the animation before the untouchable takes effect.
LOL Cyber. :-)
More old power behavior just now being discovered as a bug? Not surprising, sadly.
Doesn't really sound like a bug. The pool version of the power is inferior to the powerset version. Sounds right.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
It may be intentionally inferior, but the untouchable portion is supposed to "always work" to give people time to do something other than drop before the animation has finished.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Doesn't really sound like a bug. The pool version of the power is inferior to the powerset version. Sounds right.
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That was the original intention of adding "untouchable" to the resurrects, which didn't have them before.
So yes, it's a bug.
You're supposed to be untouchable the instant you res so that you can have a chance to live, not guarantee death due to a 0.25 second delay between rez and the untouchable application.
And yet the powerset version does not suffer from this 'problem', making it perfectly clear that it CAN be made to work that way.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I had this happen using the vet Return to Battle power yesterday. Hit it, saw 'UNSTOPPABLE' flash, tried to act but was immediately replanted. The only thing I thought was maybe lag made for a window between when I fired the power off and when the unstoppable took hold, as this was on one of the new Night Ward maps and I was seeing a decent bit of lag. I'd not seen this before using RtB (though that was before the latest patch, and not on the new content).
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And it should be made to work properly like the power set version.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
And yet the powerset version does not suffer from this 'problem', making it perfectly clear that it CAN be made to work that way.
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The only "nerf" to the pool version is likely a decrease in numbers, either health gain and/or endurance gain and/or damage done to nearby enemies.
The powers still need to both allow a player to resurrect and "have time to try to survive" rather than "I'm resurrec-dead" because they died before there health bar filled and the "rooted" portion of the animation could finish.
I really do not see how anybody could see the fact that this has "0.25 seconds to die before being able to do anything to live" as "working as intended", when the obvious intention is that it be used in combat to rally immediately after defeat while damaging the enemies still on top of your corpse and use "untouchable" to give you time to animate properly and start moving and TRY to live through all that aggro you will have.
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Lag can do some weird things to supposedly "no delay" powers.|
Originally Posted by gec72
I had this happen using the vet Return to Battle power yesterday. Hit it, saw 'UNSTOPPABLE' flash, tried to act but was immediately replanted. The only thing I thought was maybe lag made for a window between when I fired the power off and when the unstoppable took hold, as this was on one of the new Night Ward maps and I was seeing a decent bit of lag. I'd not seen this before using RtB (though that was before the latest patch, and not on the new content).
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I think the problem probably lay in(as far as I can guess) the possibility that the server receives "I am untouchable", from your computer when you hit the power, which it then applies after it received the "I am resurrecting" packet. That would mean there may not be a delay "under perfect conditions" but that lag would have a chance of allowing the server to update enemy attack status(whether they can shoot you) after you start resurrecting and before the untouchable applies.
Of course, your computer will tell you that you are untouchable even if you are not because it is a graphical display that is not irrevocably tied to whether you are actually untouchable or not and will display on your end when you activate the power even if the server hasn't "let it happen" yet.
Essentially, it is like when a power on your tray looks recharged, due to a bug form a slight bit of lag, but is not recharged and will not activate, telling you "not ready yet".
It's funny. I keep saying that this game is way too susceptible to lag, and makes lag a lot worse due to the way the server is master such that the client can have any function reversed when it receives the server "correction" of status after going from the client to the server and then back(exponential lag), but everybody thinks "the devs wouldn't let things be so bad" or "it must work fine otherwise it wouldn't be left working that way" or "you can't be right because you're not a developer".
Just remember, I could be right about this one thing, especially due to my lot of thought given to how and why I lag so much more than the netgraph says all too often, because there have existed other people in such a position of being correct despite being initially discounted due to "lack of accreditation"(lack of a degree or certificate saying "yep, he's smart", which really just means he was "barely smart enough to pass, or cheated" after he paid his way). One such person was Albert Einstein who flunked math in school. another such person was Nikola Tesla who was born in what we would call "the 3rd world" and almost magically came up with these amazing inventions and ideas.
So yes, go ahead and discount my ideas for why things are "not working as intended" or "not working as well for everyone". Either I'll be wrong and it will be some other explanation for the evidence or I will be proven right and things will still be proven to need improvement.
Either way, this game has a lot that needs improving.
Sorry for the bit off topic end there.
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But what if that's NOT the intention? Who says it's "obvious"? Clearly, that *IS* the intention for the powerset version and clearly it's NOT the intention for inspirations. What if the pool version is deliberately intended to lie between these extremes in functionality? Maybe the design intent is that you need to be more cautious with the pool version, or have a teammate grab the aggro before rezzing.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I really do not see how anybody could see the fact that this has "0.25 seconds to die before being able to do anything to live" as "working as intended", when the obvious intention is that it be used in combat to rally immediately after defeat
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
HEY!|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
But what if that's NOT the intention? Who says it's "obvious"? Clearly, that *IS* the intention for the powerset version and clearly it's NOT the intention for inspirations. What if the pool version is deliberately intended to lie between these extremes in functionality? Maybe the design intent is that you need to be more cautious with the pool version, or have a teammate grab the aggro before rezzing.
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Look at both the power set version and the pool version!
They're identical, aside from that 0.25 second delay.
THEY BOTH HAVE UNTOUCHABLE!
So what is the point of the untouchable period if it does not have the opportunity to activate in one version of identical powers?
If they really wanted you to be able to die within a 0.25 second window then the power would not be a resurrect at all. It would instead be a self-targeted Fallout(the power that turns a corpse into a weapon) that does not resurrect or heal or anything the resurrect power really does.
You say "the devs want the delay" but the devs were the ones that added untouchable to the powers to make sure you had time to try to live rather than dying during an animation that you can't break out of.
The developers obviously do not share your opinion due to the fact that both powers use "untouchable".
The argument is over. Everybody else has realized that a resurrect is supposed to give you a chance to live. That is why this was started as a bug thread in the other forums and a question here; people obviously don't see any sense to having a resurrect that fails at the job it is intended to perform.
My guess is that the devs didn't consider the Incarnate level shift delay when they put the delay on the untouchable feature in the Power Pool version. (I'm assuming they hadn't planned the details of Incarnate powers all the way back when they created RotP!)
When fighting mobs close to my level, the KB and stun of RotP compensate for the temporary lack of untouchability (untouchableness? Elliotness-ness?). But when the mobs suddenly get a bump of 3 levels, those effects of the power don't have much chance of affecting them, which thus produces the resurrec-dead* problem.
I'm not sure whether we can call this a bug, but it is something I wish the devs would look at and let us know whether this nerf during Incarnate content is truly WAI.
*(tm) T_Immortalus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CinnderScot
which thus produces the resurrec-dead* problem.
*(tm) T_Immortalus |
I'm pretty sure it's "an oversight" in a previous change they made when they adjusted the untouchable application time for resurrect powers.
All of them are supposed to give you time to play the animation of the power, being unable to do anything while it animates, and then have just enough time to try something to avoid dying when untouchable wears off. Rise of the Phoenix especially needs that because it is definitely intended to be used with enemies in close proximity.
Honestly, I think the delay on the untouchable application was possibly there, originally, to allow the damage portion of the power to hit enemies before the player is made untouchable and thus unable to affect the enemies in order to damage them(as per how phase was explained to me in a thread about the new Dimension Shift and my idea to use it to be invulnerable while damaging enemies).
They obviously found a way around that, but must have missed changing the pool version of Rise of the Phoenix when they changed power sets.
I'm not surprised that they missed it, considering that resurrect powers are not that popular when players would rather not be in a situation to use them. Even if they do take them, they very rarely need to use them and thus find out something is wrong.
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Totally different mechanic. Untouchable status does not prevent you from hitting things, and never has. Master Illusionists do it all the time. So does Phantom Army.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Honestly, I think the delay on the untouchable application was possibly there, originally, to allow the damage portion of the power to hit enemies before the player is made untouchable and thus unable to affect the enemies in order to damage them(as per how phase was explained to me in a thread about the new Dimension Shift and my idea to use it to be invulnerable while damaging enemies).
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Quote:
Well phase is listed as untouchable int he powers, usually in addition to "only affect self" but not always such as Dimension Shift(which apparently will not allow a player to sit inside the phased field using Force Bubble to keep enemies outside and just pelt them with ranged attacks from complete safety as I thought in this thread http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...33#post4174833 So, take it up with the developers if that thread is true or not.)|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Totally different mechanic. Untouchable status does not prevent you from hitting things, and never has. Master Illusionists do it all the time. So does Phantom Army.
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Also, I better explained my position on Rise of the Phoenix in the other thread about this in the more appropriate section of the forums for this: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=290727
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No. I said it MAY be intentional. Unlike you, I don't claim to know how they intended for it to work.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
You say "the devs want the delay"
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| The argument is over. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I proved how it is supposed to work by CITING THE POWER!|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
No. I said it MAY be intentional. Unlike you, I don't claim to know how they intended for it to work.
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Fire mastery.Rise of the Phoenix:
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| If you are defeated, you can rise from the ashes. The fiery resurrection blasts nearby foes with an explosion and knocks them down. You will revive with about half of your Hit Points and Endurance. Rise of the Phoenix will actually leave you invulnerable for a brief time and protected from XP Debt for 20 seconds. You must be level 41 and have Fire Blast or Fire Ball before selecting this power. Recharge: Very Long |
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| Rise of the Phoenix will actually leave you invulnerable for a brief time |
Then the power is wrong as stated in the description and thus the power description is bugged and needs to be changed.
Either the delay needs to be removed or the power description needs changing and untouchable needs to likely be removed completely from the power.
Either I am right or the power is just as bugged but in a different way.
You are completely wrong Ironblade because you say:
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
I said it MAY be intentional.
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The delay is not intended to allow a player to die before untouchable finishes, therefore the power is bugged.
Edn of story.
There is no argument anymore.
The only thing left for you is to accept the truth or try to think of something even more crazy to try and "not be wrong" because you obviously can't take being wrong even when it is proven without a shadow of a doubt for anybody else.
Haven't you noticed? You're the only one arguing that it is "intentionally lettign players die before untouchable". That is why I have responded to you, to help you see the truth, rather than let you continue to be misinformed.
I quit. You want to be misinformed like it's some similar thing to Stockholm Syndrome. You love being wrong, or something, for some twisted reason.
Have fun with your "resurrec-dead" power untilt he people who made it fix it.
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Actually, I've been arguing that you're making 'factual' statements in the absence of actual knowledge. You THINK you know how it works, the explanation SEEMS reasonable, but unless you have communication from the devs, you don't have actual KNOWLEDGE.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Haven't you noticed? You're the only one arguing that it is "intentionally lettign players die before untouchable". That is why I have responded to you, to help you see the truth, rather than let you continue to be misinformed.
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Quote:
| I quit. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
The delay in applying level shifts on incarnate missions means that Rise of the Phoenix goes from an awesome stunning, damaging rez to a rez that is instantly followed by another faceplant.
Has there been any word on un-nerfing this power for Incarnate content?