Discussion: Jeff "Arbiter Hawk" Hamilton Developer Diary at Massively
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-06-01 13:12 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
Quote:
Doesn't explain why TPN & Keyes are less prone to fail than BAF or Lambda.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
It's almost as if they were designed to get harder as they come out.... Uncanny.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Are you just basing your "stats" on your own observations, which means just on your own server, or are you actually gathering information from other places?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
I'd say your numbers are either high, or based on early runs when they first went live. I've not seen the failure rate near as bad as what you claim, especially with time spent running those Trials multiple times.
|
Click thumbnail for larger image.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
People don't seem to find the Tyrant fight rewarding enough for the risk and time. Yes, this has happened before and the devs end up tweaking things so everyone can enjoy the trial this one is headed there as well. If it's not tweaked then it will be played less two months form now than other trials that are more fun, rewarding and time efficient, first week failure rates of all trials notwithstanding.
|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Right because no trial has reported failures within the first week of going live. We all ran MoM and Underground perfectly from the get go.
It's no different than any other trial with a hard end boss. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
MoM was never tweaked. UGT just had it's rewards upped to match, the difficulty wasn't changed. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
People don't seem to find the Tyrant fight rewarding enough for the risk and time. Yes, this has happened before and the devs end up tweaking things so everyone can enjoy the trial this one is headed there as well. If it's not tweaked then it will be played less two months form now than other trials that are more fun, rewarding and time efficient, first week failure rates of all trials notwithstanding.
|
And Magi already has a increased chance at a Rare/Very rare (in fact I scored 2 Very rares the first two runs).
Quote:
On freedom where I am daily MoM and UG are the least announced LFT trials of them all. MAG will most likely end up there or just farmed like it is now if things are not adjusted. In that vein I could care less if they adjust them, if they don't we already know what the "majority" of people are going to do just like they do now. All will be well still.
|
Originally Posted by Agent White
MoM was never tweaked. UGT just had it's rewards upped to match, the difficulty wasn't changed.
And Magi already has a increased chance at a Rare/Very rare (in fact I scored 2 Very rares the first two runs). |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
well maybe the DEVS will make this trial needed to unlock the next slot above it(dont remember the name)
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
Quote:
I have only gotten 2 rares from the Magisterium trial in all the successful trial runs I've had so far (see above table). No Very Rares.
|
Originally Posted by Agent White
And Magi already has a increased chance at a Rare/Very rare (in fact I scored 2 Very rares the first two runs).
|
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
My sense of MAG is that it's either broken, there are hidden tricks, or it's not scaled properly. I was excited after the article, but stumped after my first couple runs of the trial.
I think nothing else would need to be adjusted except the lightning attack. It's either too big, repeats too often, or lasts too long. Yes, there are ways around it. But there's nothing simple about 24 random players in a PUG running around with their heads cut off every 10 seconds either to get a light or to avoid the lightning. If players didn't get rooted when attacking, it might be different.
As it stands, this has been a very unfun experience. It didn't feel epic, it feels like I don't understand the game mechanics. Rather than being simple, it feels exceedingly complex (or just obfuscated so that the absence of clarity results in confusion). There are at least 5 major mechanics going on: his tendency to fly and move around, his lightning strike, his eye beams, the lights of the well, and the favor of the well. Potentially, there's something about Olympians buffing him, dying when health is >50% or <50%, etc, but I haven't confirmed it.
I do hope this was just released prematurely and it's being evaluated.
I do understand that first week trials can be hard and people get better. Unlike almost every trial so far, though, I don't see what we're supposed to understand.
With BAF it was understanding that LT prisoners don't get mezzed and turrets are bad so stay away from them (or disable them).
With LAM it was a fix that made him easier to defeat combined with players learning how to use the temp powers.
With KEY it was not to attack AM during reactors, how to use temps, how terminals stopped his regen, how dying during last fight really boosted his health.
etc. There were mechanics added in almost every trial that may not have been intuitive, but could be taught.
I suppose if the only lesson in this trial is keep running around and neglect dedicated damage because dying is worse than attacking once in a while, then maybe I can teach that to new players. But to expect entire leagues of PUGs to be able to avoid being killed as often as I'm seeing on my trial runs, then you've just set a very high bar for PUGs for a game mechanic that is very hard to teach. I'd rather them have to use 10 different temps in sequence within 20 seconds or something than have people survive for 15 minutes running around without dying despite massive unresisted dmg being sprayed all over the screen every 30 seconds.
Perhaps when mostly players are +6, this might be more enjoyable.
Quote:
Since I know of at least one Magisterium run that not only finished the trial but also earned the Really Hard Way badge, I can't agree with your assessment. Note that most of the participants of that badge run had been on at least one successful regular run before attempting the badge run.|
Originally Posted by makerian
My sense of MAG is that it's either broken, there are hidden tricks, or it's not scaled properly. I was excited after the article, but stumped after my first couple runs of the trial.
I think nothing else would need to be adjusted except the lightning attack. It's either too big, repeats too often, or lasts too long. Yes, there are ways around it. But there's nothing simple about 24 random players in a PUG running around with their heads cut off every 10 seconds either to get a light or to avoid the lightning. If players didn't get rooted when attacking, it might be different. As it stands, this has been a very unfun experience. It didn't feel epic, it feels like I don't understand the game mechanics. Rather than being simple, it feels exceedingly complex (or just obfuscated so that the absence of clarity results in confusion). There are at least 5 major mechanics going on: his tendency to fly and move around, his lightning strike, his eye beams, the lights of the well, and the favor of the well. Potentially, there's something about Olympians buffing him, dying when health is >50% or <50%, etc, but I haven't confirmed it. I do hope this was just released prematurely and it's being evaluated. I do understand that first week trials can be hard and people get better. Unlike almost every trial so far, though, I don't see what we're supposed to understand. With BAF it was understanding that LT prisoners don't get mezzed and turrets are bad so stay away from them (or disable them). With LAM it was a fix that made him easier to defeat combined with players learning how to use the temp powers. With KEY it was not to attack AM during reactors, how to use temps, how terminals stopped his regen, how dying during last fight really boosted his health. etc. There were mechanics added in almost every trial that may not have been intuitive, but could be taught. I suppose if the only lesson in this trial is keep running around and neglect dedicated damage because dying is worse than attacking once in a while, then maybe I can teach that to new players. But to expect entire leagues of PUGs to be able to avoid being killed as often as I'm seeing on my trial runs, then you've just set a very high bar for PUGs for a game mechanic that is very hard to teach. I'd rather them have to use 10 different temps in sequence within 20 seconds or something than have people survive for 15 minutes running around without dying despite massive unresisted dmg being sprayed all over the screen every 30 seconds. Perhaps when mostly players are +6, this might be more enjoyable. |
As you noted, however, during the first week the trials can be hard and people get better.
Give it time. Players will adapt and learn, just as they did in the previous iTrials.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Quote:
That doesn't change the fact that at the very least one mechanic is not working as stated by the developers.
|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Since I know of at least one Magisterium run that not only finished the trial but also earned the Really Hard Way badge, I can't agree with your assessment. Note that most of the participants of that badge run had been on at least one successful regular run before attempting the badge run.
|
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
As I said in another discussion thread, I saw a lot more fails of the ITF when it first came out. Can we all now agree that it was too complex and pretty much impossible for a PuG to do successfully?
I had to run about a dozen Reactor Respec Trials before I got on a winning team. Clearly impossible, can we all agree?
Or can we learn from things that have gone before, and avoid the whole "It's too hard/PuG's can't do it!" maybe just this one time?
Today's bloody impossible is tomorrow's routine run, and next week's half-watching the screen. The Magi Trial does not require anything like an optimized League to succeed. It does, however, require a minimum of direction-following capability on the part of the players involved. Some people find that fun, some find it uninspiring, and some find it impossible. That the latter exists isn't really the fault of the Dev Team.
(cue "But This Time It's Different!" arguments that are, ironically, never different...)
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
Quote:
Now that we have confirmation that at least one mechanic isn't working and that a fix is in the works, I'll just say this:|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
That doesn't change the fact that at the very least one mechanic is not working as stated by the developers.
|
With the admitted broken mechanic, it is still possible to complete the trial and even to earn the Really Hard Way badge.
If it were utterly broken so that it couldn't be completed, that would be a different story.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Quote:
If it were working as intended, I doubt that there would be as many trials failed. I agree, they got the upper end right (hardcore or otherwise non-casual players). However that is a far cry from the stated "Goldilocks" intention of being accessible for both hardcore & casual gamers alike.|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Now that we have confirmation that at least one mechanic isn't working and that a fix is in the works, I'll just say this:
With the admitted broken mechanic, it is still possible to complete the trial and even to earn the Really Hard Way badge. If it were utterly broken so that it couldn't be completed, that would be a different story. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
But, we also wanted to strike a balance between that difficulty and accessibility. We needed to design something that both casual and hardcore players wanted to complete and could complete, an incarnate trial that was not too complicated, but not too simple -- a "just right" Goldilocks design.
|
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
I would argue its currently worse. If the design intent of the trials was to design them so that it was mathematically possible to complete, then any one league completing it would prove the design was successful. But if the intent of the design is to be reasonably accessible then randomly penalizing different leagues in different ways without indicator, in ways that could cause some leagues to find the trial easier and others significantly harder, then the bug actually is worse than if the trial could not be completed at all. Because an impossible trial is fair - it treats all players equally. A bugged trial that allows some leagues large unintended advantages and others large unintended disadvantages isn't fair. If fairness is a major goal, randomly broken can be worse than completely broken.|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Now that we have confirmation that at least one mechanic isn't working and that a fix is in the works, I'll just say this:
With the admitted broken mechanic, it is still possible to complete the trial and even to earn the Really Hard Way badge. If it were utterly broken so that it couldn't be completed, that would be a different story. |
If we all knew it was broken and impossible to complete, we'd all just avoid it until the devs fix it. But knowing its possible, we're going to run it. And some leagues will fail through no direct fault of their own because of a bug, and that creates unnecessary frustration among the players.
As I said elsewhere but I'm not going to make the mistake of not stating continuously, I myself don't have a major problem with the trial's design. I actually like it more than Underground, say, which I almost despise. And I don't think its much more difficult than Keyes or MoM in terms of gameplay complexity - although it does require more firepower than both of those *on top* of that gameplay complexity. But its simply not true that just because a trial is completable, that its mostly fine. Its not true that the objective is to make the possible, and see how many players achieve the theoretical. A certain amount of accessibility is a partial goal of the design of all of the game content. Not necessarily universal accessibility, but significant accessibility depending on the content.
If the goal was just to make things difficult but theoretically possible, and the basis for judging a content's difficulty and appropriateness was if someone could do it, the devs could add cryptographic puzzles to the end of trials the player would have to complete to claim their component. I'd still get my components.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
If it were working as intended, I doubt that there would be as many trials failed. I agree, they got the upper end right (hardcore or otherwise non-casual players). However that is a far cry from the stated "Goldilocks" intention of being accessible for both hardcore & casual gamers alike.
Again, the problem isn't the hardcore or non-casual groups completing the trials. The problem exists for the casual groups. I think it is time to stop treating casual players so casually. |
I said nothing about difficulty or accessibility in the first post you quoted. I said nothing about difficulty or accessibility in the second post you quoted. Nothing in my posts came even close to talking about either of those things.
Quit trying to use my posts as your jumping off point to rant and whine about something I didn't say or imply.
If you want to rant and whine about something and there isn't a post for you to quote that mentions what you want to whine and rant about, just start a new reply instead of trying to quote someone else to make it seem like your ranting and whining has anything at all to do with what they said.
All I said was that even with the broken mechanic it had still been completed and also done for the Really Hard Way badge.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Quote:
You can argue it's worse all you want. I didn't say anything about difficulty or accessibility.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I would argue its currently worse. If the design intent of the trials was to design them so that it was mathematically possible to complete, then any one league completing it would prove the design was successful. But if the intent of the design is to be reasonably accessible then randomly penalizing different leagues in different ways without indicator, in ways that could cause some leagues to find the trial easier and others significantly harder, then the bug actually is worse than if the trial could not be completed at all. Because an impossible trial is fair - it treats all players equally. A bugged trial that allows some leagues large unintended advantages and others large unintended disadvantages isn't fair. If fairness is a major goal, randomly broken can be worse than completely broken.
If we all knew it was broken and impossible to complete, we'd all just avoid it until the devs fix it. But knowing its possible, we're going to run it. And some leagues will fail through no direct fault of their own because of a bug, and that creates unnecessary frustration among the players. As I said elsewhere but I'm not going to make the mistake of not stating continuously, I myself don't have a major problem with the trial's design. I actually like it more than Underground, say, which I almost despise. And I don't think its much more difficult than Keyes or MoM in terms of gameplay complexity - although it does require more firepower than both of those *on top* of that gameplay complexity. But its simply not true that just because a trial is completable, that its mostly fine. Its not true that the objective is to make the possible, and see how many players achieve the theoretical. A certain amount of accessibility is a partial goal of the design of all of the game content. Not necessarily universal accessibility, but significant accessibility depending on the content. If the goal was just to make things difficult but theoretically possible, and the basis for judging a content's difficulty and appropriateness was if someone could do it, the devs could add cryptographic puzzles to the end of trials the player would have to complete to claim their component. I'd still get my components. |
You are using my post in the same way Snow Globe did in that my post didn't talk about either of those things.
It's just a convenient jumping off point for you to launch into what you want to say.
What I said to Snow Globe applies to you as well about not just using posts that way.
All I said was that even with the broken mechanic it had still been completed and also done for the Really Hard Way badge.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Quote:
Given that Arcanaville & I tend to have vastly different interpretations of posts, yet we both came to the same conclusions as to what your post stated might mean that you should look at what you said and how you said it.
|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
You are using my post in the same way Snow Globe did in that my post didn't talk about either of those things.
|
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
Seemed pretty clear to me.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Given that Arcanaville & I tend to have vastly different interpretations of posts, yet we both came to the same conclusions as to what your post stated might mean that you should look at what you said and how you said it.
|
I was wondering what he'd said to trigger that pair of monologues.
*shrug*
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Because, as we all know, Itrials were never hard when they first came out in the past, *Rolls eyes*
Give it a week or two and maybe a bug fix and players will dominate this thing.
Also, Ultimate insps.
Are you just basing your "stats" on your own observations, which means just on your own server, or are you actually gathering information from other places? I'd say your numbers are either high, or based on early runs when they first went live. I've not seen the failure rate near as bad as what you claim, especially with time spent running those Trials multiple times.
I don't see anything wrong with a 70% success rate for Magisterium, when it settles into it's post-new Trial groove, even with people slotting their Hybrid powers. Hard should actually be hard in practice, not just in theory.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.