To play devil's advocate:
While a blaster has high melee damage to be able to dispense foes, melee is not its intended style of play.
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Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr.
To play devil's advocate:
While a blaster has high melee damage to be able to dispense foes, melee is not its intended style of play. |
Which leads to more than one inexperienced Blaster lying face down on the floor wondering what the holy
Oh well, live and learn... at least most players do anyway.
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
Yeah melee is their secondary set for a reason. It's intended as a last resort burst of damage when things do get close. They also don't the other criteria besides damage. Especially not 'needing' to get close.
To be completely fair.
I was certain they rolled dice to get those numbers.
"Needs to be close to the target" does not describe Blasters. Thus, they don't belong in that category.
I mean yes, Blasters have some problems. But try to keep the tinfoil hats to a minimum.
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Why deviate from the norm around here?
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
But try to keep the tinfoil hats to a minimum.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
What gets me about those screens is more that they place blaster survivability at 4, scrapper at 7, and brute at 8. There's no way that blasters are that tough in comparison unless that scale is some sort of counter intuitive logarithmic scale or something.
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What is really funny is that controllers, defenders, and corruptors all also have 4s and DOMINATORS ARE AT 3!
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Originally Posted by VTG_Peace
What gets me about those screens is more that they place blaster survivability at 4, scrapper at 7, and brute at 8. There's no way that blasters are that tough in comparison unless that scale is some sort of counter intuitive logarithmic scale or something.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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So Scrappers should only expect their armors to be last resort defense? You know, since it's their secondary and all...|
Originally Posted by VKhaun
Yeah melee is their secondary set for a reason. It's intended as a last resort burst of damage when things do get close. They also don't the other criteria besides damage. Especially not 'needing' to get close.
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It's secondary to the primary ability, that doesn't mean that it should be looked at as 'last ditch resort' across the board. This is part of the problem.
No other AT has to deal with the same handicaps that Blasters do for so little pay off, admit it.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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So what you are saying is that since Brute and Scrapper survival numbers are high and that is part of their secondary that their survival isn't part of their intended style of play?|
Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr.
To play devil's advocate:
While a blaster has high melee damage to be able to dispense foes, melee is not its intended style of play. |
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Originally Posted by VKhaun
Yeah melee is their secondary set for a reason. It's intended as a last resort burst of damage when things do get close. They also don't the other criteria besides damage. Especially not 'needing' to get close.
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If the powers in the blaster secondary are meant to be last resort burst of damage things then why are some of them AoEs?
Why are /Fire's long DoTs?
What is your excuse for Trip mine? Time Bomb?
Why do the powers that hit the hardest take so long to cast if they are supposed to be last resort?
Why don't ALL the nukes operate from range since the primary is supposed to be RANGED damage and the blaster isn't supposed to "need" to get close?
Why is Irradiate a PBAoE?
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
"Needs to be close to the target" does not describe Blasters. Thus, they don't belong in that category.
I mean yes, Blasters have some problems. But try to keep the tinfoil hats to a minimum. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I don't think this means what you think it means...
You can't classify an AT as melee when most of its Primary Powers are Ranged!
Yes, a Blaster is a mix of Ranged and Melee, but to classify them specifically as "Melee" along with pure Melee ATs (even the ranged heavy Spines and Claws don't count enough to be classified as "Ranged") would be entirely misleading!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Actually I don't think it means what you think it means.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I don't think this means what you think it means...
You can't classify an AT as melee when most of its Primary Powers are Ranged! Yes, a Blaster is a mix of Ranged and Melee, but to classify them specifically as "Melee" along with pure Melee ATs (even the ranged heavy Spines and Claws don't count enough to be classified as "Ranged") would be entirely misleading! |
Master minds are listed in support with a secondary set that is rated at a "5" for support.
Defenders are listed as Ranged Damage with a secondary set that is rated at "6" for ranged damage.
Dominators and Controllers are listed in the Pets category with a Primary pet power that gives them a rating of "5" for pets.
Blaster Melee damage rating is an 8! yet the devs don't list them as a melee damage category AT. That's pretty revealing of the dev thought process where blasters are concerned.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Because Blasters are good at melee, and benefit from being in melee range. Not all builds, but many. But unlike scrappers, brutes, and stalkers, we don't need to be close to the target. We want to be close, at least sometimes, but we aren't near-helpless past melee range like e.g. most Scrappers are. It's not our only nor even our primary method of attack. So we don't belong in the category that says "needs to be close to the target".|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Then why such a high melee rating? If you aren't intended to use it all the time and therefore have no need to be in melee frequently why give it such a heavy weight. If it isn't intended to be used that often it should have a much lower rating right?
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What are the categories even for? Helping new players choose, mostly. Would it be helpful to a new player to put Blasters in the melee damage category? No, mostly it would be confusing/misleading. Blasters play very differently from everything else in the Melee Damage category. If part of the problem with Blasters is that people try to play them like Brutes, listing them in the same category as Brutes will only make that worse.
If the category was armored or something, I could see it. But Blasters should be listed in the Melee Damage section (and they conveniently have a disclaimer in their description that they shouldn't stay there too long).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Most Veats I have seen play similarly to Blasters, mixing melee and range.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
What are the categories even for? Helping new players choose, mostly. Would it be helpful to a new player to put Blasters in the melee damage category? No, mostly it would be confusing/misleading. Blasters play very differently from everything else in the Melee Damage category. If part of the problem with Blasters is that people try to play them like Brutes, listing them in the same category as Brutes will only make that worse.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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We don't "need" to be close to the target.... unless we want to use most of our secondary powers. Ignoring our secondary powers makes us an AT that really only has one power set and if you study posted IO builds that is frequently what happens. We give up large parts of our secondary to take power pools like Fighting, Medicine, and Concealment.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Because Blasters are good at melee, and benefit from being in melee range. Not all builds, but many. But unlike scrappers, brutes, and stalkers, we don't need to be close to the target. We want to be close, at least sometimes, but we aren't near-helpless past melee range like e.g. most Scrappers are. It's not our only nor even our primary method of attack. So we don't belong in the category that says "needs to be close to the target".
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| What are the categories even for? Helping new players choose, mostly. Would it be helpful to a new player to put Blasters in the melee damage category? No, mostly it would be confusing/misleading. Blasters play very differently from everything else in the Melee Damage category. If part of the problem with Blasters is that people try to play them like Brutes, listing them in the same category as Brutes will only make that worse. |
"You shouldn't take and use your secondary powers as a blaster unless you have lots of blaster experience because you'll just get killed trying to use them in melee range."
To me that means the devs have either given the blaster a very misleading rating in regards to melee damage or the blaster AT isn't really intended to use it's melee attacks which is why its omitted from the Melee Damage category.
The 2 points of view can't be reconciled because one refutes the other.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Right, which is a significantly less strict limitation than needing to be close to the target to use ANY of our powers. Scrappers need to be close to the target, period. Blasters do better when they're close to the target. These are not the same thing.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
We don't "need" to be close to the target.... unless we want to use most of our secondary powers.
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Honestly, I think the only thing any of this means is that those numbers are pretty meaningless... as most everyone has said since they first showed up in Freedom beta.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Actually I don't think it means what you think it means.
Master minds are listed in support with a secondary set that is rated at a "5" for support. Defenders are listed as Ranged Damage with a secondary set that is rated at "6" for ranged damage. Dominators and Controllers are listed in the Pets category with a Primary pet power that gives them a rating of "5" for pets. Blaster Melee damage rating is an 8! yet the devs don't list them as a melee damage category AT. That's pretty revealing of the dev thought process where blasters are concerned. |
You're taking the reverse stance... that those numbers are meaningful and the reality is off!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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A scrapper needs 1 power and only one power (ie: any travel power) and they can continue to use every power from primary and secondary without any artificial limitations. In comparison the blaster "gets to do better" only on those rare or contrived occasions that it is safe to move into melee range.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Right, which is a significantly less strict limitation than needing to be close to the target to use ANY of our powers. Scrappers need to be close to the target, period. Blasters do better when they're close to the target. These are not the same thing.
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The astonishing thing is how large a portion of the player base actually believes that this is equitable.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Not exactly. Personally I believe the numbers are extremely artificial and don't bear up under even mild scrutiny.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Honestly, I think the only thing any of this means is that those numbers are pretty meaningless... as most everyone has said since they first showed up in Freedom beta.
You're taking the reverse stance... that those numbers are meaningful and the reality is off! |
BUT, the devs released these numbers as a tool to help new or indecisive players. That is, at the very least, indicative that the devs believe these numbers to be accurate enough for the player base to make good choices based upon them. Which allows us to see the counter intuitive dev thought processes where blasters are concerned.
Bottom line is that either blasters don't measure up and should be modified or the ratings don't measure up and should be modified.
Modifying the ratings would mean that the devs have to admit that blasters don't work the way they want to believe that they do.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Oh, definitely. The need to be in melee range is very rarely meaningful as a limitation. Trivial as it is, it does still exist though, and Blasters are not subject to it. And they are distinctly unlike the other ATs in the category. They don't fit the description of the category, and they are unlike the other things already in the category. It doesn't seem like a stretch to say they don't belong in the category.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
A scrapper needs 1 power and only one power (ie: any travel power) and they can continue to use every power from primary and secondary without any artificial limitations. In comparison the blaster "gets to do better" only on those rare or contrived occasions that it is safe to move into melee range.
The astonishing thing is how large a portion of the player base actually believes that this is equitable. |
Should Blaster changes allow them to belong in the category? Arguably, sure. But currently, they do not, which makes the omission both intentional and justified, not evidence of neglect. We don't have to dig so far to find evidence of that.
Yes point taken but, noones going to look there.
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I am going to say that is going to far. I do not think it is that rare and I am not sure what you mean by contrived. Honestly, in almost every case where you simply let someone else run in first and eat the alpha, any blaster can do fine in melee for a few seconds (yes, there are exceptions). That should not be a rare situation, although you are (and should be) contriving to make that situation occur.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
In comparison the blaster "gets to do better" only on those rare or contrived occasions that it is safe to move into melee range.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
A scrapper needs 1 power and only one power (ie: any travel power) and they can continue to use every power from primary and secondary without any artificial limitations. In comparison the blaster "gets to do better" only on those rare or contrived occasions that it is safe to move into melee range.
The astonishing thing is how large a portion of the player base actually believes that this is equitable. |
It's not a matter of equitable. It's the only game in town so we play it their way. Oh we rant and rail against some of their design decisions but we play just the same. Sorta like buying gasoline when prices are high which they always are these days...
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
....that the devs know that blasters do not work as designed.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson