How badly...

Actually, I don't get why people seem to think it's either-or. My Khelds, for instance, have their own backstories, their own RP, their own interactions - the Kheldian War storyline just happens to be running at the same time *also.*

It's kind of like being in IT. Yes, you go to work and work on systems (or code or whatnot.) On occasion you'll be called in to work on something that just came up and needs doing. But you also have a life outside that where you hang out with friends, drive to the store, pay bills, etc. They're not exclusive.

Heck, you can decide just how big of an impact you want it to have - the storyline's important to you, or you completely ignore it (or ignore it after your costume at level 10 if you're a veat,) or any mix in between.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Powersets yea, ATs nay.

the next EAT I play past level 5 will be the first.

I completely understand this too. All of my characters have back-stories and adventures outside of the preset lore and story arcs of the game; however, when my characters are involved in certain storylines (i.e. the Incarnate storyline), I don't get irritated because certain things weren't done the way I want them done. For example, it makes perfect sense to me that my Lore pets have the Reflections aura surrounding them because they are reflections--manifestations of people/things I have interacted with before.

It's the same thing with certain other arcs throughout the game. The "Origin of Power" arc doesn't offend me like it does some other, more vocal, players. It isn't absolute truth, it is the contacts' observations of their own origins--which is naturally biased and subject to human predispositions. Perhaps I am just justifying it for myself, but a lot of the arguments brought up when discussing lore and how it "steps on toes", just seem childish and entitled. YMMV.

Word-eezy.

I accept that it's not my convoluted, uninteresting universe of horribly squandered potential and thank God it will never be. I'm quite happy to play by various practical limits and to accept the general premise of the world, e.g. Paragon City is a place with lots of heroes and the Rogue Isles are rules by an organization called Arachnos. However, the more permissive the lore, the better. The lore should be made as unintrusive as possible so that I can ignore parts that don't fit.

Storyarcs can just be ignored without consequence. EATs can be ignored - although if it happens to be mechanically very good or has a playstyle I've always wanted, I would be irritated that it was not just implemented as a regular AT, with optional lore-specific parts like animations and costume parts. Occasionally the game coughs up something that's a bit harder to dismiss, like the original IDF-only lore pets. That made it comparably more difficult to handwave the entire nonsense with the Well. At least they did backtrack on that one and implement other lore pets, so I just have to handwave the godawful translucent Lore FX.

Stating that the lore is stepping on our toes is not being childish or juvenile, or whatever your next childish, juvenile personal attack will be (I do accept that many people make unreasonable demands, like fully customizable pets using the costume creator). On the contrary, it's reminding those in charge of this stuff that the backstory should stay where it belongs - in the background where I can easily turn a blind eye to it.

The post-GR game world must be a living nightmare for you then

To this I must vehemently disagree. The lore is the basis of ANY game. It gives the pixels and numbers and animations PURPOSE. I can create the most amazing and awe-inspiring story for my character, but if what I come up with clashes with what the writers have written, then I need to change my story. Point blank.

My intention is not to attack you in any sort of manner. I have no issues with you, personally...hell, your first post in this thread was the first time I have ever seen your name on these boards. My argument is merely against the notion that we can't have any new epic, story-based Archetypes because a loud group of people (that is plural, not singling you out) are discontent with the stories that have been presented to us. Your argument of "stepping on toes" is not unique and has been around since the Dr. Brainstorm and Powerset Proliferation fiasco...or the 'Origin of Power" arc, whichever came first. A very vocal portion of the community has been calling for blood since those and all of those voices again are calling for blood for the "nonsense" of the Well.

While I will agree that Powerset Proliferation didn't need a backstory, a rise to Incarnate levels of power DEMANDS a story for it. If you don't like the story, then you don't like the story, and it is your prerogative to dismiss it if you choose. However, calling it nonsense to those of us that actually don't mind drawing our power from a wellspring of human potential (that just happens to have taken on modern human characteristics) is not any better than a perceived slight.

There's been good and bad. On the bright side, we got branching dialogue and side switching. We now at least have an illusion of choice as regards character responses and we're free to play good brutes and corruptors without going through morality missions. They've also attempted to avoid talking down to the player (you get to beat up Bocor in that rogue tip mission, and you talk back to Prometheus, etc.) You're able to unlock Alpha without going through Ramiel's arc (thus ignoring a big chunk of their nonsense incarnate story) which was a pleasant surprise. We got phasing tech which sounds like it has great potential; hopefully one day you can actually log in to citizens greeting you and a statue of you in AP after saving the world from the Battalion. Statesman and Psyche are dead, which I hope means that the League of Dev Self-Inserts will be playing a less prominent role in future.

On the bad side, we've got the whole Well garbage and there was the fiasco with Lore pets (where, to their credit, the devs wisely bowed to pressure). The anti-science, anti-technology bias in the lore has gotten worse with Praetoria, followed by one magic-themed story after another, and culminating in Cole's pointless and senseless nuking of Nova Praetoria.

That's your perogative. When what I come up with clashes with what the writers have written, I ignore what they have written. Their stuff isn't as fun, and fun is the point of the game.

You obviously like the lore a lot, but others don't, and writing being such a subjective thing means they will never be able to please all or even most of the population. Smart developers will cater to both groups by providing lore but making sure that they don't shove it in the faces of people who don't fancy their concepts.

Re: EATs, frankly I would rather see the developers continue supporting and developing a proven strong selling point of the game (customization) rather than stuff that isn't (their garbage Well metaplot and ugly looking NPC groups with poor backstories). I don't want to see a proliferation of niche EATs becoming a major focus for the development team instead of stuff that's actually useful like new costume sets, powersets and animations.

No, the sword got broken by the guy he was fighting.

SPOILERS:






He also stabs someone with the sword blade in his teeth after having lost both his arms.
I think that counts as pretty badass

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

This is confusing. Most of the early Praetoria arcs are science and tech based. There is little to no magic in the original set of arcs. The last couple of areas in Praetoria seem to address WHY that is, which makes sense to me.

The villains of Praetoria use their scientific and technological mastery to manipulate the populace and warp the human form while the poor oppressed magic users hide out in a swamp and plot rebellion while squads of sci-fi raygun soldiers try to hunt them down. It really doesn't get any more obvious than that.

Depictions of science and technology in this game are nearly universally negative. Both are presented as powerless in the face of the major supernatural threats confronting the city, which only mystical understanding can comprehend (and this one dates all the way back to War Witch's line in the original CoH comic, "There are things that science will never be able to understand."). There are no examples of research or engineering organizations using technology for the good of the public; all we have are Crey, Arachnos, Malta and the their ilk. Advanced technology, with exception of the medicom and possibly the war walls, is almost always depicted as having severe negative consequences (see Portal Corp) or being used for evil: witness Cole's nukes, Hamidon's genetic meddling, Enriche, etc. High-tech villains abound, from the Rikti to the Praetorians and Dr. Vahz.

And yes, people will cite Positron as a counterexample, but it's worth noting that Positron does very little with his technology, except for a line in the description of PPD hardsuits saying that Positron had a hand in designing them. He just flies around and blasts people with lasers; he could be a mutant in a clown suit and it would make no difference, really.

Badly enough to pay, say, $20 for one without even batting an eye, probably more if I really liked it. Is that bad enough? Honestly, I feel the basic structure of the game just doesn't do justice to as many character types as it can. I've discussed this with multiple people, and there's really no way to make, say, the traditional concept of the minigun power armour boss of many other games. Sure, NPCs can skirt this rule - that's more or less what Crey Elliminators are, and why they're my favourite NPC - but for us to use guns, we have to be "squishy." Sometimes you can fight back against this design, but that's still going against the grain.

What kind of character? Well, obviously one which can use guns AND armour at the same time, so Assault/Defence. I probably wouldn't want to go full Range/Defence just because it leaves the characters with no close-quarters combat, which is weird for someone who CAN do very well in close quarters.

I've often suggested such a character come with a complex mechanic which rewarded the character with more damage if ranged powers are used at range, but now I have to wonder if it's not better to force the character to become immobile or VERY SLOW to use those ranged attacks. After all, think about how your average miningun power armour boss fights - he does a slow walking advance through enemy fire, shooting back and suppressing resistance. He's not zooming around the battlefield, taking pot shots. Forcing people to be immobilie if they want to use ranged attacks should be enough to discourage "kiting," I think.

As for Epic AT? HELL NO! I don't want any more Epic ATs. I don't want even the ones we have. I don't like them, I don't play them and I don't agree with them. They're too restricted in terms of concept and too closely tied to the game's lore to ever truly feel "my own." I have nothing against fanfiction, of course, but I prefer to write straight-up fiction of my own without having to worry about filling someone else's character mould. The story is good, but I'd rather not HAVE to account for it.

And, no, I don't care for a "story" to explain why the Archetype exists. An archeTYPE is nothing more a type of character, "a universally understood symbol, term, or pattern of behavior," according to Wikipedia. Giving a plot reason why characters can use guns and body armour is akin to giving a plot reason for why people like pie. You see, on Primal Earth, the Well of the Furies infected all human beings with a retro-virus which altered their DNA, causing them to perceive the taste of cake as good. While this does not manifest for all, it still explains why most people like cake. It's also very stupid and unnecessary.

Archetypes don't need to be explained. They're abstract meta-game frameworks used to package powers by types such that the game can ensure a character has access to all the tools necessary for decent gameplay, but not access to so many that all other characters become obsolete. There's no need to meddle in my character concepts by telling me why my characters are what I chose them to be. I chose them, so I'm pretty sure I can come up with a reason for why I made the choice that I did.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Sure new AT's especially some suggested in your excellent thread "Kirsten's Consolidated AT Suggestion Thread". That is by far the best thread in the forums....by far.

Mad/bad/misguided science runs rampant through many major comics and is just a staple of the genre. I can't really argue with the writers staying true to the source material...besides, what good would a hero do in a world where science has already solved all the world's problems?

As far as War Witch's statement in the comics:

As much as I love science in the real world and believe the answers to almost any question can be discovered via observation and the scientific method, there ARE some things science will never understand.

In her lifetime sure, but "never" is a looooooooong time. Generations of observation and the scientific method are in fact showing that we can/do understand things that were thought to be "impossible" at one time.

Given enough time I think humans will be able to figure things out that we would consider to be magical or impossible right now. It has been that way in the past and I see no reason for that to change anytime soon. Our quest to "understand" is deeply embedded into our DNA.

OK, I see where you're coming from. I don't feel it's as bad as you do however.


Everything on the good side is powerless to the major threats confronting the city... otherwise we wouldn't need heroes. It's kinda the point. It's not like there is a plethora of magical solutions to the problems unfixable by science.


We also have the Carnival of Shadows, all of Croatoa, skulls and hellions and the CoT which are all bad magic.


Posi hates clowns.

Here's the context of the scene in question (emphasis mine):

So to me this is much more than stating the fact that some things will forever be beyond the reach of human science (which I don't deny); to me it shows the condescending attitude that science can understand nothing of magic's superior ways. It's worth noting that the Nictus are, of course, horribly transformed by science and in the same comic Requiem is very specifically addressed as "Science-Lord".

This anti-science bias persists with amazing consistency throughout the CoH world. Everywhere science and technology are associated with mutation, perversion, destruction, pollution, corruption, greed and villainy. There are entire zones devoted to it. This is much more than just a case of comic-book runaway science; in comics you can still find positive examples of scientists and engineers. The Lex Luthors and Dr. Dooms of comic-book worlds have their Mr. Fantastics and Tony Starks to contend with. Not so in City of Heroes; there is scarcely a single positive example of a scientist and engineer as a counterpoint to Nemesis or Dr. Aeon. Science can understand nothing and technology do no good in this game's lore, unless it serves some villain or another, especially with weapons.

Magic isn't demonized in the same way. There are evil magicians and mystic organizations (the Carnival, Darrin Wade) as well as good ones (Numina, Dream Doctor, the Midnighters) - which is exactly what you'd expect. Why is it that magic can be treated neutrally and not science and technology? Where is the Victorian engineer-hero, the genius researcher fighting to get his miracle drug to market, the archeologist trying to save ancient ruins from being looted for their magical artifacts, the whistleblower trying to bring down Crey from within, and the crimefighter trying to make a difference with homemade rocket boots and a stun blaster? You'll be hard pressed to find them in this game, at least in the official lore.

the writing for this game is mostly pretty bad. It's improved over the past couple of years, but still isn't anything to write home about. I can count the story arcs that genuinely impressed me on one hand- the Wretch arc villain side & the Twinshot arc hero side.

I'm not going to lower my creative bar to the level of the game.

I mean obviously the game needs a storyline of its own, but players aren't obligated to pay it any heed, and to that end the less obtrusive it is the better.

An analogous situation would be the pen and paper Champions game- back in the day it had by far the best set of rules for superheros. But their 'lore' was just a weak tea ripoff of silver age Marvel, almost beat for beat. Everyone I knew completely ignored their 'universe' and ran their own stories- that was the strength of the game.

Setting and lore are great if they're brilliant- I can't imagine playing Deadlands for instance and subbing in my own alternate Western universe because the one it provides is perfectly realized. That's a world I *want* to explore and immerse myself in.

But this game?
Give me the rules as unencumbered with laborious backstory as possible so I can do what I like with them.
A generic city to fight generic crime in with my super fun character- that's all I want or need.

It's been a long while since I read those, so I had forgotten the specific context for that statement. Mea culpa.

I will concede this point and gladly bow out of this debate. While I care tremendously about the stories Paragon Studio has created over the years, I don't particularly care enough to continue a debate that amounts to nothing more than opinion (largely my own). And I believe I have contributed to this derail for much too long and apologize to the OP for it.

As my location says:

Back to the shadows.

*activates smoke flash*

That sounds familiar. Like perhaps it's something I've seen and forgotten.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.