Taskmaster Gabriel was added after the missions were designed and the system was released. He was added to give us a deterministic method to get Empy's.
The missions were not originally designed as repeatable missions (such as the repeatable missions from Ephram Sha) and can only be repeated through Ouroboros. For them to go in and try to change the mission structure so that they can be run as repeatable missions could break several things. It would very likely break it so that anyone actively in the midst of running it through Ouro would have no way to complete the arc they were on since repeatable contacts aren't in Ouro.
There are six arcs. None of the arcs take a week to run. The only one that might spread over two normal days of playing time is the Dream Doctor arc, and it can be done on a long weekend session if you aren't concerned with the timer on the reward table since you get two reward tables during that arc.
I don't speed run missions at all, especially not these since I want the rewards that come in the missions as well, and all but Dream Doctor's arc are easy to do in a two hour play session.
Once you finish one contacts arc, you are out of Ouro mode. You don't enter Ouro mode until you start the next contact's arc. So you aren't locked in to Ouro mode except for the length of that specific arc.
Heather's arc can be run in about an hour or so and Mu'Vorkan's arc can as well, although it is slightly longer.
In Max's arc you only need to run the final mission and don't get a reward table anyway. If you've run the side missions at all, when you run the final mission through Ouro it treats it as if you've run the side missions that time, even if it was in a completed set of arcs two weeks ago that you ran them. So, there's just one mission to run and if you've run the side missions in the past you've even got the helpers.'
Sinclair's arc is a bit longer and Sister Solaris is the longest of the first 5 arcs. All can easily be completed without speed running in a 2 hour play session.
Dream Doctor's arc takes longer, but can likely be done in a 3 to 4 hour weekend play session if you aren't taking the same reward drop from both tables.
All of my early runs that I based my time on were for a T1 Alpha slotted SO/HO build that I've finally gotten a level shift on Wednesday night. I've gotten Judgement, Interface and Lore slotted with T2 and opened Destiny opened and unslotted.
Not an uber build by any stretch of the imagination and from a fairly casual player. Several weeks I've gotten this done even with working the ticket booth at some of the local high school's Baseball and Softball games. On those evenings, I either don't run an arc or I run Max's final mission to get his arc over.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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This is true and it's something that just has to be lived with. But darned if I haven't gotten into an arc figuring I probably would't run across a BAF soon (on Infinity, where they don't seem to run nearly as often as oh, Virtue) only to see "BAF lfm pst" come across one of the channels.
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
I don't speed run missions at all, especially not these since I want the rewards that come in the missions as well, and all but Dream Doctor's arc are easy to do in a two hour play session.
Once you finish one contacts arc, you are out of Ouro mode. You don't enter Ouro mode until you start the next contact's arc. So you aren't locked in to Ouro mode except for the length of that specific arc. |
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This.|
Originally Posted by gec72
This is true and it's something that just has to be lived with. But darned if I haven't gotten into an arc figuring I probably would't run across a BAF soon (on Infinity, where they don't seem to run nearly as often as oh, Virtue) only to see "BAF lfm pst" come across one of the channels.
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I play one character and I like the freedom of running an arc then dropping to do whatever happens to be called out, I don't want to be stuck halfway through an arc.
Also it doesn't really matter when the contact was added, it is pointless if they don't add a proper way to redo the missions.
As for those halfway through the arc in ouro not being able to complete it I don't really see your point. They will have to suck it up (Once) and start the arc normally again, hardly a gamebreaker.
Edit: I should mention that I couldn't care less about getting the merits from this guy, it just smacks of an incomplete feature that could have been a good one.
Edit 2: Actually they could make him give out all the missions (Or duplicates of) once you have completed them so the original arc will still be in flashback and the repeat arcs all come from one easy to access location and could even be given in order so people have to run them all and can't just farm the easy ones.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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You aren't stuck. You can make a decision as to whether you want to complete the arc or drop it to run something else. Same as any other arc through Ouro.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
This.
I play one character and I like the freedom of running an arc then dropping to do whatever happens to be called out, I don't want to be stuck halfway through an arc. |
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Also it doesn't really matter when the contact was added, it is pointless if they don't add a proper way to redo the missions. |
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
As for those halfway through the arc in ouro not being able to complete it I don't really see your point. They will have to suck it up (Once) and start the arc normally again, hardly a gamebreaker. |
The Ouro system has worked this way since it was introduced in that it locked you into whatever you were doing so you may as well argue that the entire game should have every contact and every mission as a repeatable mission without having to use Ouro.
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Edit: I should mention that I couldn't care less about getting the merits from this guy, it just smacks of an incomplete feature that could have been a good one. Edit 2: Actually they could make him give out all the missions (Or duplicates of) once you have completed them so the original arc will still be in flashback and the repeat arcs all come from one easy to access location and could even be given in order so people have to run them all and can't just farm the easy ones. |
Adding him in the way they did was a fairly quick method to give a deterministic route to getting Empys for those arcs.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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Great. What a wonderful decision to have to make.|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
You aren't stuck. You can make a decision as to whether you want to complete the arc or drop it to run something else. Same as any other arc through Ouro.
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
They did add a proper way to redo the missions when they designed them. It's through Ouroboros, just like any normal mission contact in the game. Taskmaster Gabriel was an afterthought added as a way to give us a deterministic method of getting Empys. It does matter when they added it since they can't quickly revamp those missions to make them and their contact repeatables without taking a chance on breaking several other things.
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
So because you don't want to be inconvenienced we should inconvenience others that are running things as they are designed? If you decide that it's more important to run something else after you've already started an arc then you should just suck it up (to use your phrase).
The Ouro system has worked this way since it was introduced in that it locked you into whatever you were doing so you may as well argue that the entire game should have every contact and every mission as a repeatable mission without having to use Ouro. |
And it is an inconvenience to a tiny handful of people once, and after that they benefit every time the run the arc. Also that is assuming they won't be able to complete the arc, which we don't know for certain anyway.
I don't care about repeating any missions, but if they are going to stick a contact in to say "repeat this mission" then the mission should be repeatable properly (And having high level repeatable arcs is a good idea as seen in lots of other games). No other place in the game does someone give you a mission that asks you to run a completely seperate flashback.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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The mechanic that you are complaining about has been a part of Ouroboros and task forces alike since they were introducted. The Devs obviously don't think there's anything improper or half*** about it. Since I don't often hear players who run task forces complaining about it, I'm guessing most of the player base doesn't either. |
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
It doesn't matter when they added him, because either do something properly or not at all. Don't half *** a job.
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| I don't care about repeating any missions, but if they are going to stick a contact in to say "repeat this mission" then the mission should be repeatable properly (And having high level repeatable arcs is a good idea as seen in lots of other games). No other place in the game does someone give you a mission that asks you to run a completely seperate flashback. |
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Ozone isn't half *****, thats a good idea, adding a contact saying 'do this mission even though nobody will give it to you' is half *****. Also TF's are team content so not applicable as they are the most likely reason you will want to abandon your half done arc.|
Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
The mechanic that you are complaining about has been a part of Ouroboros and task forces alike since they were introducted. The Devs obviously don't think there's anything improper or half*** about it. Since I don't often hear players who run task forces complaining about it, I'm guessing most of the player base doesn't either.
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Lets say I log on before my SG, as it stands I can't start an ozone arc because I know in 30 mins they will be on wanting to do group content, which I would want to do. If the missions were standard repeatables then I could do a few, join my guild, then finish my arc at my leisure.
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Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
He doesn't ask you to repeat any missions. He offers you a reward for completing missions. If you've already run the missions normally but want the reward again (or missed it because you ran them before he came along) you have the additional option of using Ouroboros to repeat the missions and still get the reward. I think that was pretty nice of the Devs to add that. But maybe they should remove the option of repeating the mission for multiple rewards--would that make you happy?
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As it is they really need to make the missions repeatable (Or move that guy to the ozone if they must) otherwise it makes no sense. It makes even less sense when you think of ozone as actual time travel, how can the guy reward you for going back in the past to do something you have already done? Surely he would just give you the reward each week because you already did it in the past and the past doesn't actively change?
Weekly rewards for repeatable missions is a great idea, but using ozone is an opportunity lost.
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British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I should add: the way you put this (And likely the way the devs were thinking) then it was pretty nice of them.|
Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
I think that was pretty nice of the Devs to add that.
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It just wasn't very well thought out.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Man, the compassion for the fellow player is just ..underwhelming. |
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
You aren't stuck. You can make a decision as to whether you want to complete the arc or drop it to run something else. Same as any other arc through Ouro.
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You are not totally correct. Sure, you can play the semantics game if you like. The player is stuck indeed. If they choose to do that baf - they have lost all the progress that they made in the flashback arc. Sounds stuck to me. When players have limited time (you mention a 2 hour window) and they spend half of it in flashback mode and choose to do a tf, they have basically wasted an hour with nothing gained except for a few paltry threads and perhaps an even more paltry gain in iXP.
The arcs from the contacts in DA should have been repeatable from the very start. There are so many things in game that we thought would never happen because of the amount of effort it would take the dev team to reconfigure things. This is no different. They pushed this issue when they really didn't have to.
All that being said, except for the new player - the rest of us have only a little room for complaint. After all, we have alts! We can log the character involved in ouro and log in another.
To the OP -I feel your pain. Don't let the folks who have invested thousands of hours of their time into this game (and can understandably be hyper-sensitive to complaints about it) get you down. Your complaint has merit and is felt by a lot of players.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
The real problem I have with running the DA arcs through Ouroboros is that it discourages teaming. For people who like to team, it's very rare that everyone you play with logs in at the same time and is ready to start a mission in Ouro.
What happens most frequently is that you start a normal arc, then one friend on an incarnated 50 shows up, you invite him, then another friend playing a level 35 character shows up, and you invite him, and so on. This is the normal way to play.
With Ouro none of that is possible. Once you start the arc, you can't add new players. You also can't start the arc in Ouro with a player who hasn't already done it, which automatically rules out any sub-50 characters.
Even if a group of friends all does all of each others' arcs the first time through together, you'll never get enough components to build your powers. In my experience the components are the stumbling block: if you do a lot of arcs on teams you will unlock your slots faster than you'll get the components required simply because of the 20-hour rule.
These factors all conspire to force people to speed-run the DA incarnate arcs through Ouro. That means you're almost forcing people to stealth through Heather's arc solo in 15 minutes a couple of times a day to maximize threads, merits and components. But I think this is unncecessary.
The main reason Ouro arcs emulate the TF structure is that you get reward merits at the end of the arc. The DA arcs already have a separate reward mechanism that is based only on completing the final mission of an arc, so this restriction is not necessary for the DA arcs.
The devs should therefore remove the invitation restriction on DA arcs run through Ouro so that we can add new members to a team. This change has already been made for AE, so it's obviously possible. It would be more convenient to have Gabriel administer the repeats of these arcs, but I know it would require a completely new system and probably a lot of work, so I can live with having to port back to Ouro every few missions.
On the other hand, Gabriel looks to be associated with Empyrean Michael, so there's no reason he couldn't have a Ouro crystal in front of him, similar to the ones we can have in our bases. And if that crystal was limited to DA arcs, it might be easier to eliminate the restriction on adding new team members.
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The missions are repeatable. All missions are repeatable. You just have to go to Ourobors to do it. A bit of an inconvenience? Sure. But it's nice to have the option. I don't understand the logic of not wanting the option, especially when you can just ignore any option you don't like.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
As it is they really need to make the missions repeatable (Or move that guy to the ozone if they must) otherwise it makes no sense.
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And I don't understand why the missions would need to be repeatable at all for Taskmaster Gabriel to make sense, as you do not have to repeat anything to get the rewards. You can run the missions once, through normal contracts, and get the reward. They just didn't restrict the reward to first run only.
Frankly, I don't know why Ouroboros uses the task force mechanics. I'm sure there's a reason, but I don't know what it is. Sure, I'd prefer Ouroboros didn't work that way. But if that's a problem, it's a problem with Ouroboros, not Taskmaster Gabriel. Ouroboros isn't suddenly "broken" because you can now use it to get incarnate merits. For some of us, the benefits of using Ouroboros have long outweighed the restrictions, and now that is even more true. But if you don't agree, feel free to take a pass.
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This, a thousand times this. I ran these arcs with my girlfriend and my brother and we all got the Empyreans. Now, in order to do that again, we need to run it once for each of us.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
The real problem I have with running the DA arcs through Ouroboros is that it discourages teaming.
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I would like the ability to do something else in the middle of an arc, or to add people, but I'd be plenty happy if I could just run a DA in Ouro with someone else leading and get credit with Gabriel.
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What you say makes sense, and yet taskforces work the same way. You HAVE to team to run a taskforce. But somehow, people manage to organize teams for taskforces all the time. |
Originally Posted by Rodion
The real problem I have with running the DA arcs through Ouroboros is that it discourages teaming. For people who like to team, it's very rare that everyone you play with logs in at the same time and is ready to start a mission in Ouro.
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At least in Ouroboros you CAN solo if you can't or don't want to find a team.
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1- /t @Person Forming the BAF, I'm in the middle of a Flashback right now, and can't join the League. I'm entering the queue, please leave a spot open for me.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
You are not totally correct. Sure, you can play the semantics game if you like. The player is stuck indeed. If they choose to do that baf - they have lost all the progress that they made in the flashback arc. Sounds stuck to me.
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2- Enter the queue.
3- Join the BAF when it starts.
4- Finish the trial.
5- Get barfed out of the trial back into your flashback (having lost progress on the mission you were in when the BAF started, but not your place in the story arc).
Where's the problem?
@Roderick
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You keep harping on Taskmaster Gabriel. I don't think you understand how he works. He doesn't lock you into ANYTHING. He doesn't offer any missions of his own. All he does is track what DA arcs you have completed. You can do one arc, then go off for a week and do ten task forces, then come back and do the next arc. Or you can do the arcs out of order. Gabriel doesn't restrict you in any way.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
It doesn't matter when they added him, because either do something properly or not at all. Don't half *** a job. And setting the missions to repeatable and testing that cannot be hard. And if it does break something hold the repeatable thing back until it is fixed.
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Sure, after the first run of an arc, you have to do it through Ouroboros - just like every other story arc in the game.
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Thing is, you *personally* have to do it through Ouroboros. If you team, nobody on the team gets credit with him besides the leader.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Sure, after the first run of an arc, you have to do it through Ouroboros - just like every other story arc in the game.
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Granted, I think this is the first time an Ouroboros mission gave rewards beyond what you're provided at completion (and which are given to the entire party), so it was never a problem before. But it is now, and it would be nice if they addressed it. They put in Gabriel to encourage people to run all the arcs, not just speed through Heather Townshend's as much as possible; while he may address this issue for soloers, the leader-only credit means Taskmaster Gabriel is not performing his intended function for people who run in small groups and he is actively discouraging the kind of spontaneous teaming that so much of the game is built around.
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lol. The problem is that I had no idea we could do that! That is, I knew we could join the queue and do regular missions, but for some reason, I thought being in task force mode wouldn't allow it. (The game would let me, but I never got queued into any iTrial while running arcs. I just figured it only worked in regular missions.)
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Originally Posted by Roderick
1- /t @Person Forming the BAF, I'm in the middle of a Flashback right now, and can't join the League. I'm entering the queue, please leave a spot open for me.
2- Enter the queue. 3- Join the BAF when it starts. 4- Finish the trial. 5- Get barfed out of the trial back into your flashback (having lost progress on the mission you were in when the BAF started, but not your place in the story arc). Where's the problem? |
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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Level range, I think. As a TF the Flashback can exemp you to the mission's maximum level if you're above it. Not all enemy groups span 1 to 50, and some have sub-groups that are only meant for a particular level range. Some bosses only have flavors for a few particular level ranges, as well. By using TF mechanics the player's character is guaranteed to be a level that's appropriate for the missions.
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Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
[...] Frankly, I don't know why Ouroboros uses the task force mechanics. I'm sure there's a reason, but I don't know what it is. [...]
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Developer Hack I think to force level and require to quit to restore your proper level. Tech was already in TF so they used it when they introduced Ouruboros.
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I thought joining a trial boots you completely out of your flashback? That's what I heard anyway, I haven't tried it personally, because I didn't want to get booted out of my flashback and lose progress |
Originally Posted by Roderick
1- /t @Person Forming the BAF, I'm in the middle of a Flashback right now, and can't join the League. I'm entering the queue, please leave a spot open for me.
2- Enter the queue. 3- Join the BAF when it starts. 4- Finish the trial. 5- Get barfed out of the trial back into your flashback (having lost progress on the mission you were in when the BAF started, but not your place in the story arc). Where's the problem? |
Sorry this is a slow reply - been away a few days.
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I will go with Ouroboros needs updating, but the DA arcs highlight this because they are the only missions in the game that you are encouraged to repeat.|
Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
The missions are repeatable. All missions are repeatable. You just have to go to Ourobors to do it. A bit of an inconvenience? Sure. But it's nice to have the option. I don't understand the logic of not wanting the option, especially when you can just ignore any option you don't like.
And I don't understand why the missions would need to be repeatable at all for Taskmaster Gabriel to make sense, as you do not have to repeat anything to get the rewards. You can run the missions once, through normal contracts, and get the reward. They just didn't restrict the reward to first run only. Frankly, I don't know why Ouroboros uses the task force mechanics. I'm sure there's a reason, but I don't know what it is. Sure, I'd prefer Ouroboros didn't work that way. But if that's a problem, it's a problem with Ouroboros, not Taskmaster Gabriel. Ouroboros isn't suddenly "broken" because you can now use it to get incarnate merits. For some of us, the benefits of using Ouroboros have long outweighed the restrictions, and now that is even more true. But if you don't agree, feel free to take a pass. |
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
You keep harping on Taskmaster Gabriel. I don't think you understand how he works. He doesn't lock you into ANYTHING. He doesn't offer any missions of his own. All he does is track what DA arcs you have completed. You can do one arc, then go off for a week and do ten task forces, then come back and do the next arc. Or you can do the arcs out of order. Gabriel doesn't restrict you in any way.
Sure, after the first run of an arc, you have to do it through Ouroboros - just like every other story arc in the game. |
I know he doesn't give the quests of lock you into anything, re-read my posts.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
1- /t @Person Forming the BAF, I'm in the middle of a Flashback right now, and can't join the League. I'm entering the queue, please leave a spot open for me.
2- Enter the queue. 3- Join the BAF when it starts. 4- Finish the trial. 5- Get barfed out of the trial back into your flashback (having lost progress on the mission you were in when the BAF started, but not your place in the story arc). Where's the problem? |
Still you are locked in Ouro mode stopping you from doing every other activity aside from trials, which is the bigger issue.
I play a lot, and almost always with 1 character so having to finish an entire arc (Or be doomed to repeat the first few missions) before I can join my friends when they log on is a bad thing - and one of the reasons so few non-badgers actually seem to use Ouroboros.
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British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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This is simply not accurate. At no point does he ever tell you to repeat missions. He never uses the word "repeat" whatsoever. |
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Taskmaster Gabriel is important because as I said above in this post (And a few other times...) he is the only NPC in the game that says "Repeat these missions". If you are going to be asked to repeat missions then they should use the standard repeatable mechanics.
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You CAN repeat the missions to get the reward multiple times. Should you choose to do so, you will need to use Ouroboros. But the rewards offered by Taskmaster Gabriel are not exclusive to repeat runs--they are awarded the first time you run the arcs, normally, without Ouroboros. I'm not sure if you understand that or not yet.
Here is what he actually says:
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| To prove your strength, you must face the obstacles that this cursed city has created for you. They will hone your abilities and make you stronger than ever. I shall know when you have completed them, whether it be in your present time, or through the use of time travel. Shall we begin? |
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| Complete all of the Dark Astoria arcs and speak with Taskmaster Gabriel again. You may complete them normally, or through Ouroboros. |
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He sits there in DA with a big shiny contact icon above his head and repeatedly gives me a mission to complete the other missions. He doesn't have to say repeat to actually repeat something.|
Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
This is simply not accurate. At no point does he ever tell you to repeat missions. He never uses the word "repeat" whatsoever.
You CAN repeat the missions to get the reward multiple times. Should you choose to do so, you will need to use Ouroboros. But the rewards offered by Taskmaster Gabriel are not exclusive to repeat runs--they are awarded the first time you run the arcs, normally, without Ouroboros. I'm not sure if you understand that or not yet. Here is what he actually says: |
There have been a few good suggestions in this thread but if you like being stuck in ozone missions on your own then thats good for you, other people want the chance to play with friends and it just makes good sense to open the missions up if you are going to give a repeatable reward for completing them.
The current setup just encourages speed runs so people aren't stuck in tf mode too long.
The ozone is great for what it is, but repeatable end game content needs to be easily repeatable, or it gets old even faster!
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Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
And then it says:
. Again, notice that while he tells you that you can use Ouroboros to claim the rewards, you are not neither required nor requested to do so. It is only ONE way to get the reward, not the ONLY way. |
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I get the impression that the Devs consider empyrean merits to be pretty substantial rewards. I don't think they want it to ever be "easy" to get them, so they are probably not going to be sympathetic to complaints about the inconvenience of using Ouroboros to earn empyrean's repeatedly. Adding this reward to the DA arcs was an afterthought to begin with, which only came after players complained that the rewards were too meager. I have a feeling they think they've done enough to appease players on this issue.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
The ozone is great for what it is, but repeatable end game content needs to be easily repeatable, or it gets old even faster!
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| And as soon as you finish the arcs once it becomes the ONLY way. |
Yes, I would prefer if none of this content (SSA, DA, or any Ouroboros missions) worked this way, but at least they're consistent. I think we're just going to have the accept that repeating missions--for whatever reason and whatever rewards--comes at the price of having to put up with the nuissance of being "locked into" an arc. This isn't something new, just something that some players didn't deal with a lot until it became a way to repeatedly earn empyrean merits solo.
In DA there is a contact (Can't remember his name) who offers you a weekly reward for doing all the DA arcs, and he will offer this every time you speak to him.
However as far as I can see there is no way to repeat the arcs without going to the ozone, which then locks you in (And encourages speed running because nobody want to be locked in an arc for a week).
Is this right? And if so why make a weekly mission and not let it be done in an more obvious and less annoying way?
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!