Vahz are certainly not immune to controls. Not sure what you're seeing. The biggest issue with Vahz at lower levels (IMHO) are the -rech darts. Did you have them at +levels? Were the controls actually hitting?
(Ran a fairly new Dark dom through a DFB or two a few days ago, so I have tackled them fairly recently.)
I haven't gone up against any new types of Vahz recently, but in terms of the traditional Vahz, getting rid of the Reapers and Mortificators was key. They control the aggro for the Cadavers and Abominations. Without Reapers and Morties around, you could pretty much walk right up to the Cadavers and Abominations and they'd ignore you. That's because Cadavers and Abominations have a really short perception range. Combine that and their really short term threat memory, you should be able to run past them most of the time without any reaction.
If you do need to engage, pull the Reapers or Morties and do you best to take them out while ignoring the Cadavers and Abominations, then fall back until the rest lose interest. Then you should be able to pull the Cadavers and Abominations one at a time because they're stupid.
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If not "immune", then "highly resistant". Regardless of what AT I'm playing, I have never been able to consistently mez a Cadaver or Abomination. Every once in a while, sure, but most of the time they just keep coming. They may come at me more slowly, but they rarely stop altogether. I know there's RNG and the standard 5% chance to miss, but I appear to "miss" Cadavers and Aboms far more frequently than mobs from other enemy groups.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Vahz are certainly not immune to controls. Not sure what you're seeing. The biggest issue with Vahz at lower levels (IMHO) are the -rech darts. Did you have them at +levels? Were the controls actually hitting?
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I play at +0 or -1, mostly the latter. I don't know if it's a glitch or what, but if I play at +0 I end up with, I'm guessing, 70% of the mobs in a mission being +1 to me. When I have time, I'm going to do some actual tracking of this phenomenon to see if my perception is accurate before I file an official complaint/bug report.
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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
I haven't gone up against any new types of Vahz recently, but in terms of the traditional Vahz, getting rid of the Reapers and Mortificators was key. They control the aggro for the Cadavers and Abominations. Without Reapers and Morties around, you could pretty much walk right up to the Cadavers and Abominations and they'd ignore you. That's because Cadavers and Abominations have a really short perception range. Combine that and their really short term threat memory, you should be able to run past them most of the time without any reaction.
If you do need to engage, pull the Reapers or Morties and do you best to take them out while ignoring the Cadavers and Abominations, then fall back until the rest lose interest. Then you should be able to pull the Cadavers and Abominations one at a time because they're stupid. |
The issue with the mish I described in my OP was that the "response team" that spawned after I rescued the NPC was composed entirely of Aboms and Cadavers who were programmed to come right after me. And I ran into them all in one tunnel, with more continually spawning behind them, rather than being spread out in groups of 2-3 around a larger room. Too many, and I couldn't stop any of them.
my approach is the reverse of how I approach most spawns- ignore the grunts, take out the bosses. Those -rech's are rough, plus as noted once the brains of the operation are down the rest are easy enough to dispatch.
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You're not kiting fast and far enough.|
Originally Posted by Mister Rik
Ah, okay. I wasn't aware that the Reapers and Morties actually control the others. I was already taking out the R's and M's first, but by the time they go down their "minions" are already in melee range and puking/exploding on me.
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You can get a shot against the Morts (they're number 1 because they're rezzers). And run far away. The Ms and Rs will catch up to you and you can fight them without the minions around. When the minions show up, shake yourself out of scrapperlock and run away again, and again the Ms and Rs will catch up to you without the minions.
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I've had no issue mezzing them on my dark/dark dom. Do you have you powers slotted with any accuracy enhancements? I don't think Vahz have any noteable defenses to speak of.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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I see Zombie Man has beat me to it. Long long long pulls spreads them out (i.e don't pull to just the nearest door or corner ... pull to the next "county"). The other thing along these lines I'll do is wait until the aggro starts to die off, then come up behind the line of returning Vahz to pull the one at the back. Often can get the last one to be the only one to turn and chase me again (or at worst the last 2 or 3 in the line). Use that speed/slow difference and horrid perception against them.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
You're not kiting fast and far enough.
You can get a shot against the Morts (they're number 1 because they're rezzers). And run far away. The Ms and Rs will catch up to you and you can fight them without the minions around. When the minions show up, shake yourself out of scrapperlock and run away again, and again the Ms and Rs will catch up to you without the minions. Kite! |
That and run early, very early, compared to when you would normally flee. That toxic DoT is deceptively strong and long lasting for a lowbie encounter. Don't let their mez and DoT accumulate.
Doomguide
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So yes, they definitely do resist immob (as do Abominations), as well as Smashing damage, so that probably explains why you were having so much difficulty against them on a Grav/Earth Dom. Dunno about the other mezzes not working though, I have to assume that was your imagination running wild after your immobs didn't work.
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Originally Posted by ParagonWiki
Cadavers are resistant to Sleep, Fear and Immobilization. They are also resistant to Smashing damage but they are slow. They also are fairly dumb, and may wander around mindlessly if there are no Reapers around to tell them what to do.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Yeah, I figured out early on that +ACC should be the first enhancement I slot into every power that can take it. Extra damage/duration does no good if it doesn't hit!|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
I've had no issue mezzing them on my dark/dark dom. Do you have you powers slotted with any accuracy enhancements? I don't think Vahz have any noteable defenses to speak of.
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Originally Posted by Doomguide
I see Zombie Man has beat me to it. Long long long pulls spreads them out (i.e don't pull to just the nearest door or corner ... pull to the next "county"). The other thing along these lines I'll do is wait until the aggro starts to die off, then come up behind the line of returning Vahz to pull the one at the back. Often can get the last one to be the only one to turn and chase me again (or at worst the last 2 or 3 in the line). Use that speed/slow difference and horrid perception against them.
That and run early, very early, compared to when you would normally flee. That toxic DoT is deceptively strong and long lasting for a lowbie encounter. Don't let their mez and DoT accumulate. |
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
So yes, they definitely do resist immob (as do Abominations), as well as Smashing damage, so that probably explains why you were having so much difficulty against them on a Grav/Earth Dom. Dunno about the other mezzes not working though, I have to assume that was your imagination running wild after your immobs didn't work.
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No, Resistance doesn't work the same as Defense in that respect (or really any respect). However, ragdoll physics is still pretty horribly broken in the game, so consequently knockdown/back/up effects aren't working right.
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Originally Posted by Mister Rik
Would resisting Smashing or Lethal damage carry over to resisting the attack's secondary effects? For example, if the Cadaver/Abom resists the Lethal damage from Stone Spears, is it also likely to resist that attack's Knock Up effect?
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Vahzilok are one of the enemy groups I've never had issues with, so I can't weigh in here. They do do some hefty damage, so you probably need to spread out the pulls a bit more, keep them from all beating on you at once. Not a big fan of dominators though, so I can't go beyond that.
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No, the resist would just reduce the damage they take.|
Originally Posted by Mister Rik
Would resisting Smashing or Lethal damage carry over to resisting the attack's secondary effects? For example, if the Cadaver/Abom resists the Lethal damage from Stone Spears, is it also likely to resist that attack's Knock Up effect?
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By the way, I don't believe any Vahz resist holds, slow or confuse... one of my favorite tricks on an Illusion, Dark or Mind character is to confuse the Embalmed and let them kill their buddies. Also the cadavers are so slow that any slow effect will work virtually the same as an immob. I haven't played your sets but it looks like all the Grav immobs have a slow attached to them... even if they resist the immob the slow effect should still work. Crushing Field ought to be able to assist greatly in keeping the zombies out of explosion range.
Vahz ARE one of the tougher low level groups along with COT; you do need to put a little thought into them. As others have mentioned once you kill the Morties the zombies are so stupid you can walk right past them with impunity, or pick them off one at a time easily.
After awhile you'll get the hang of how to handle the various mobs in the game. Later mobs will be much tougher with more tricks... but then you'll also be tougher with more tricks.
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I find killing them is good.
TW standard immobilize is 1 mag short of rooting abominations and cadavers. Also, pay attention to the abominations - there are Diseased abominations with a nasty pbaoe debuff aura.
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Of course! My main character is a level 43 Fire/Fire blaster. I remember fighting Sky Raiders on her and how quickly I figured out "Ignore everybody else and take out those !@#$% Engineers first!" Currently, the banes of her existence are those Nemesis snipers (Tirallieurs, or whatever) and the Malta Sappers. The sappers are the entire reason she's finally carrying the blue inspirations - until she encountered them, Endurance was never a problem for her.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Vahz ARE one of the tougher low level groups along with COT; you do need to put a little thought into them. As others have mentioned once you kill the Morties the zombies are so stupid you can walk right past them with impunity, or pick them off one at a time easily.
After awhile you'll get the hang of how to handle the various mobs in the game. Later mobs will be much tougher with more tricks... but then you'll also be tougher with more tricks. |
I have over 60 characters (mostly blasters, scrappers, and brutes), and the Vahzilok have been a problem for all of them, though.
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They have mag 3 immob protection. They actually don't have any RESISTANCE to immob, just PROTECTION. (I hate that the developers conflate the two terms in power descriptions all the time. That's why it says resistance in the wiki; because the game says that.)|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
So yes, they definitely do resist immob (as do Abominations), as well as Smashing damage, so that probably explains why you were having so much difficulty against them on a Grav/Earth Dom. Dunno about the other mezzes not working though, I have to assume that was your imagination running wild after your immobs didn't work.
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Thus, it takes two applications of an immob to immobilize the dead guys, instead of one for normal guys.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Well kinda. Controller AOE Immobs are mag 3 + 50% of an additional mag 1. Single Target are Mag 4 + 20% chance of +1.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
They have mag 3 immob protection. They actually don't have any RESISTANCE to immob, just PROTECTION. (I hate that the developers conflate the two terms in power descriptions all the time. That's why it says resistance in the wiki; because the game says that.)
Thus, it takes two applications of an immob to immobilize the dead guys, instead of one for normal guys. |
So an AOE immob should stop half of them, the single target should immob stop them in one, if you're a Controller. The Single Target Domi one should stop them too, but obviously only one at a time (and a lot of Domis skip the single target immob)
Actually if you're solo and Gravity then Dimension Shifting half the spawn is worth a punt. Or using it as a bottle-neck.
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Amen, brother.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I find killing them is good.
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And what SerialBeggar said earlier..."...they are stupid."
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All enemies have an inherent mag 1 protection against mezzes. So it still requires two applications, since that in combination with their mag 3 protection through their Resistance power means a total of mag 4 protection vs immob.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Well kinda. Controller AOE Immobs are mag 3 + 50% of an additional mag 1. Single Target are Mag 4 + 20% chance of +1.
So an AOE immob should stop half of them, the single target should immob stop them in one, if you're a Controller. The Single Target Domi one should stop them too, but obviously only one at a time (and a lot of Domis skip the single target immob) Actually if you're solo and Gravity then Dimension Shifting half the spawn is worth a punt. Or using it as a bottle-neck. |
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Okay, I'm not familiar with this "Mag" bit of jargon ...
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Only level 12 on this character - don't have that power yet.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Actually if you're solo and Gravity then Dimension Shifting half the spawn is worth a punt. Or using it as a bottle-neck.
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Ah, didnae know that. |
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
All enemies have an inherent mag 1 protection against mezzes. So it still requires two applications, since that in combination with their mag 3 protection through their Resistance power means a total of mag 4 protection vs immob.
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Originally Posted by Mister Rik
Okay, I'm not familiar with this "Mag" bit of jargon ...
Only level 12 on this character - don't have that power yet. |
If you're planning to solo a lot it's worth it IMO, on teams it's very, very situational.
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Evidently, they also have mag 2 Sleep/Fear protection atacked on top of 50% resistances to the same, although that doesn't explain a Grav/Earth Dom having difficulties.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
They have mag 3 immob protection. They actually don't have any RESISTANCE to immob, just PROTECTION. (I hate that the developers conflate the two terms in power descriptions all the time. That's why it says resistance in the wiki; because the game says that.)
Thus, it takes two applications of an immob to immobilize the dead guys, instead of one for normal guys. |
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| Okay, I'm not familiar with this "Mag" bit of jargon ... |
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Found this out fairly early - you can easily pull the Cadavers and abominations but try to pull a Mortificator or Reaper and it is almost certain it will bring the rest of the group along. |
Originally Posted by Mister Rik
Ah, okay. I wasn't aware that the Reapers and Morties actually control the others. I was already taking out the R's and M's first, but by the time they go down their "minions" are already in melee range and puking/exploding on me.
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Watch out for Eidolons though as their Dark powers will apply a nasty -ToHit debuff.
The actual damage from the Abominations doesn't really seem to be all that high but it is Toxic which is very poorly resisted and not defended against at that level, in addition it applies a long duration DoT (very easy to die to multiple hits from this) and I believe -Def.
Can't say I've ever had any trouble holding any of them or immobing them, admittedly most characters I have that use immob will stack it quickly.
Also worth remembering is that the Embalmed self destrust is readily interrupted - any damage will do so. It can also be used to take out the rest of the group even without confuse if you can run when it starts the animation.
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Is there a general consensus on the best way to deal with Vahzilok mobs? I took a Vahzilok mission on my Grav/Earth dominator, Venus Lass, last night and was quickly reminded of why I try my best to avoid Vahzilok missions: they appear to be effectively immune to everything except straight damage.
I'm generally successful against these guys with Blasters, provided I can keep away from them long enough to burn them down at a distance. But Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers ... I have lots of trouble dealing with more than 1 or 2 at a time —once they start puking on me (or exploding) I'm dead in about 5 seconds. And my Dominator has holds, immobilizes, and KB/KD out the wazoo, all of which had no apparent effect. So as I was trying to escape the sewers with the NPC I'd just rescued (it was a Steel Canyon radio mission), the new spawns (the ones yelling "Stop Venus Lass!") that appeared after I rescued the NPC overwhelmed me because none of my crowd control would work, and more kept spawning behind them. Ultimately, I gave up trying to defeat them and just ran like hell for the exit, hoping the NPC was keeping up.