Kadao Kestrel's optimism reminds me of why I wanted to be a hero
By
Balanced,
Posted on: 2012-04-03 16:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
There's a big different between someone with meta-human abilities and a super-hero. Cadao said it best. No matter the odds, super-heroes always save the day. If they don't, they're just loons who like to dress in tights. Yes, Manticore, I'm talking about you -_-
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Oh, so this is why villains never get the big win. :3
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
There's a big different between someone with meta-human abilities and a super-hero. Cadao said it best. No matter the odds, super-heroes always save the day. If they don't, they're just loons who like to dress in tights. Yes, Manticore, I'm talking about you -_-
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61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
But there IS plenty of big damned heroes moments, even in the darker arcs.
In the Indigo/Crimson plots, you discover the secret conspiracy they've killed thousands to keep quiet and publicise it to the world, breaking the cover of crucial members and some of the reins they hold over the government, save hundreds of people from their crimes by crippling their organisation in Paragon, and when the ***-kicking you hand them makes them go Full Retard and try to blow up the city, you save it too.
In the Portal Corporation arcs, you singlehandedly defeat an ENTIRE DIMENSION and its invading armies.
In the RWZ super-arc, you reveal the truth behind a plot that brought humanity on the edge of annihilation, save an alien species from committing genocide because of a simple mistake, save the last (at the time) surviving members of the greatest team of heroes the world had ever known after they've been behind enemy lines or brainwashed for a decade, and SAVE THE WORLD (POSSIBLY TWO).
And these are the 'grey' arcs.
What I want to know is how could it me MORE heroic without it being just silly?
Those are also all OLD arcs. Crimson, Indigo and Portal Corp are all Issue 1 and the whole of the Rikti War Zone is Issue 10. Those are exactly the kind of arcs I want to see more of. In fact, Indigo's final musing on Missing Melvin is actually a large source of inspiration for me, simple though it may be. These are, to me, what it means to be a super hero, and these are certainly the ones that make me feel good for doing them.
It's the shift in tone since I18/I19 that has me concerned, because it's honestly starting to override some of my older memories and make me wonder what it is I used to find so inspiring about this game. Then I run an old arc like Cadao's, like Crimson's or even like Angus', and I remember. THESE are the stories that made me fall in love with the City of Heroes fictional world. And from everything I've seen, stories like these just aren't being made any more. Judging from the game's current tone, happy endings are considered "boring."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Have you played through DA yet? It had a lot of the same feeling, to me. Not only do you go up against impossible danger and succeed, you have the option to refuse to compromise while doing so. Sorry, no, I'm not helping the bad guys, even if it makes the next mission more difficult. In the face of ridiculous odds, I will still do the right thing, and I will succeed anyway.
(I tried to make that as non-spoiler as I possibly could, it shouldn't really give anything away.)
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I did the exact same thing, and it was wonderful that they included the option to be irrational at a certain point in the story and try to save *both* hostages. Needless to say, the first time I tried that it didn't work well at all |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Have you played through DA yet? It had a lot of the same feeling, to me. Not only do you go up against impossible danger and succeed, you have the option to refuse to compromise while doing so. Sorry, no, I'm not helping the bad guys, even if it makes the next mission more difficult. In the face of ridiculous odds, I will still do the right thing, and I will succeed anyway.
(I tried to make that as non-spoiler as I possibly could, it shouldn't really give anything away.) |
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I have not. I keep making excuses, but this is not for lack of wanting to do it. It's just that the character I'm focusing on now can't run it, and I'm writing an overlong story about her, meaning I can't swap characters. It's almost done, though.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Have you played through DA yet? It had a lot of the same feeling, to me. Not only do you go up against impossible danger and succeed, you have the option to refuse to compromise while doing so. Sorry, no, I'm not helping the bad guys, even if it makes the next mission more difficult. In the face of ridiculous odds, I will still do the right thing, and I will succeed anyway.
(I tried to make that as non-spoiler as I possibly could, it shouldn't really give anything away.) |
That said, nearly everyone who mentions Dark Astoria has good things to say about it, so that's something. Moreover, what you're telling me alleviates one BIG worry I had about the zone's... "Feel" when I tried it on Beta, and that was that everything would be dark, gloomy and depressing. If I really do get to challenge the odds, do the right thing and still walk away victorious, then... Wow. Now I want to run it even more
You actually bring up a good point, and that goes for both heroes and villains. It seems like the game so very rarely allows us to do the right/wrong thing in situations where this would put us in a bad position, presumably so that the game doesn't "end." I have asked, and numerous times, why I can't simply punch Daos in the mouth when he starts telling my villain what to do, and people instantly jump up to say "Because Arachnos would have you killed!" Let 'em try. Make my missions harder, put me in jail and force me to fight my way out, hell, even give me a Gordon Freeman choice, just so long as I have the choice to do the "wrong" thing and fight my way out of the consequences.
I'd never really ran across a really good hero example of the above villain dilemma, but what you're describing sounds like a good one. Conspire with the villains to make my job easier against the BIGGER villains, or tell them to go to hell, do it by myself and have a much, MUCH harder time. And you know what? Most of my heroes would choose to have a harder time, half because they specifically WANT a harder time, half for ethical reasons. And if Dark Astoria offers this kind of choice, I want to make it.
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This is something of a tangent, but I want to make it. Years ago, a friend of mine would occasionally bring his PSX over to my house, and for a while he played a game by the name of Warhammer: Dark Omen. I don't remember anything about the game's plot, but it was some kind of building-less strategy game. More importantly, as the game went from mission to mission, the player met various people asking for help, and was given the choice to stop and help them, or otherwise ignore them and hurry to his next major mission. If the player hurried, the old man in a hat would be pleased and enemy numbers would be low as the dark forces had not had time to mass. If the player stopped to help, the old man would be angry and the enemy forces would be considerably stronger, but the player would bring with him the people he had helped as extra fighters.
To me, this is exactly the kind of choices that make me excited to choose in the first place. Sure, I like no-consequence choices between good and evil so that I may pick by concept, rather than utility, but if difficulty were all these affected, I would still like it a lot. The thing is that doing the right thing is rewarding by itself, but walking the walk in addition to talking the talk is sometimes even better. Maybe it's just me being contrary, but when the game tells me I should compromise my ethics or else it will be too hard, I want to contradict it, stick to my guns and muscle through the difficulty anyway. Good, in other words, doesn't have to be comfortable, so long as it is actually good, as opposed to the faux-good I've seen lately where we mean well, but everyone around us dies because we suck.
Doing the right thing and failing sucks. Doing the right thing and paying the price... Not so much, so long as I CAN pay the price to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Heh. I only just finished it over the weekend, myself, so I kinda know what you mean |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I have not. I keep making excuses, but this is not for lack of wanting to do it.
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The zone is indeed dark, gloomy, and depressing. It's supposed to be. But that's not "devs hate heroes" or bad storytelling or something, it's just dramatic tension. Things in DA start out bad and go downhill from there. Still, you're never forced to give up.
I don't want to say much more for fear of spoilers, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on DA when you finish it
I do agree with you overall that such stories are some of the best parts of the game.
The big theme of the DA arcs is Hope VS Despair.
On a side note, I like arcs where the bad guys win the first few rounds because it builds dramatic tension and raises the stakes, which makes it more cathartic when good finally triumphs over evil (when playing hero side, of course. Its nice to get a few wins when playing villain side too!). I really enjoyed the "Who Will Die?" storyline for this reason.
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There's a balance to this, however, and to my eyes the SSAs failed to strike any sort of balance whatsoever. Unlike real life drama, you can't force people to sit through a dark, depressing slog if they don't want to. Regardless of how "happy" the ending may be, there comes a point when I'll simply walk away from a story in the middle because I no longer enjoy experiencing it. The trick to writing a dramatic story, therefore, is to know your limits. You can't force people to stay, so you have to goad them into staying by striking a balance between drama and catharsis. You need to make the person believe that, hey, maybe THIS time something good will happen. I mean, something good happened last time, maybe things are turning around?|
Originally Posted by Flying_Carcass
On a side note, I like arcs where the bad guys win the first few rounds because it builds dramatic tension and raises the stakes, which makes it more cathartic when good finally triumphs over evil (when playing hero side, of course. Its nice to get a few wins when playing villain side too!). I really enjoyed the "Who Will Die?" storyline for this reason.
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When you I see a veritable deluge of negative emotions, I walk way. What reason would I have to keep ruining my mood when I KNOW that the next chapter will bring more of the same? Someone else will die, someone else's life will be destroyed and things will get worse. Obviously, that's what's been happening since the very beginning. Even Don Bluth, whose movies are generally dark and depressing but with a happy ending, still introduces a reprieve every now and then. And, really, at this point, NO ending can make up for all the crap that the SSAs dumped down on the signature characters. There's no balance to their drama, it's all one emotional blackmail after another.
I sincerely hope that Dark Astoria is not like the SSAs.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I thought the DA arcs were AWESOME. I've never felt more like I was playing a really super powered hero than when I reached the end. I really felt like she was an Incarnate. And also like everyone else really was looking to my character to save the day because she was the only one who could. (Admittedly, she has three level shifts, but on the other hand she's also a zero-defense super-squishy blaster.)|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That said, nearly everyone who mentions Dark Astoria has good things to say about it, so that's something. Moreover, what you're telling me alleviates one BIG worry I had about the zone's... "Feel" when I tried it on Beta, and that was that everything would be dark, gloomy and depressing.
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Also, it's really important to have a great costume. One that you'd be proud to be seen wearing in a cut scene when you save the world.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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Probably my favorite point in all of Dark Astoria. Never felt more like a hero than when I chose to do the stupidly heroic thing and challenged five bosses to a two minute cage match and won (admittedly, I ate five large purples, but someone with level shifts could probably do it without). That's more of what I'd like to see from CoH, lots of little, ultimately inconsequential choices that let you choose just how heroic you actually want to be.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
I did the exact same thing, and it was wonderful that they included the option to be irrational at a certain point in the story and try to save *both* hostages. Needless to say, the first time I tried that it didn't work well at all
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I've heard about this timed battle before, but I thought it was just for a badge. What happens if you survive but don't manage to bring them down in two minutes?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It's very difficult to answer that question without a spoiler, but basically, an NPC offers you a "lesser of two evils" choice. You have 3 dialog options:
1) the lesser of the two evils (for the jaded vigilante, or the hero who knows their limits)
2) both of the two evils (for the villainous types, or the REALLY jaded vigilante)
3) neither (for the fearless idealist)
If you choose 1 or 2, the NPC will just agree. If you choose 3, they will refuse, and you have to defeat the NPC and its allies within the timer, or else both of the bad things happen anyway.
The old arcs have a lot of magic to them if you stop to smell the flowers (by that I mean reading the text walls). Some of the best roleplay I've done in the game were with the older arcs.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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What choices you make in that dialog, and whether it works or not, determines whether you see neither of them, one of them, or both of them off and on the rest of the arc.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I've heard about this timed battle before, but I thought it was just for a badge. What happens if you survive but don't manage to bring them down in two minutes?
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The Dark Astoria arcs follow a standard late-silver-age comic book trope:
Person 1: "OMG, we're all doomed! I give up!"
You: "That can't be right."
Person 2: "We're all doomed, I'm just going to lie down and die!"
You: "That can't be right."
Person 3: "We're all doomed, I'm going to try to protect my family as long as possible before we all die!"
You: "That can't be right."
Person 4: "We're all doomed - join me and we'll die with honor!"
You: "That can't be right."
...
Person n+1: "We're all doomed, we're out of things to try! Oh, wait, except for this one thing that can't possibly work, so nobody's tried it. And if you try it and fail, we're even more doomed, because we won't have you."
You: "Well, since we're doomed anyway, I'll try it. Hey, it works. Hey, everybody! The unstoppable doom has this tiny obscure but easily exploited crippling weakness!"
People 1 through n+1: "Oh, heck yeah! We're following you!"
You: "Let's get 'em!"
Everybody Else: charges into battle behind you, and you all save the day
I defy you not to grin like a maniac, at the end, when you find out how MANY people were counting on you, and how MANY people trust you, how MANY people are eager to follow you, personally, into battle, because you're the only one who didn't give up and you were right.
Personally, I love the darker tones that this game has been exploring lately. Granted, the SSAs could have been better but I still enjoyed them. However, what I'm really referring to are the tip missions which blew my mind when I played them the first time. I truly felt like my choice made a difference not to mention the fact that I truly felt like whatever alignment I had chosen when I did them.
I believe the devs need to strike a balance between darker content and lighter content. Recently, they've just been focusing on showing that Paragon/Rogue Isles/Praetoria aren't all rainbows and unicorns.
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During the brief "breaking" cutscene in the finale, I hit one of my main's costume macros so that he was in his angelic form, instead of his usual gray "balance" outfit, when he became visible again. I also made a point of finishing the final battle with a Judgement (Pyronic, of course). I don't do that kind of thing very often, but the climax of the DA arcs deserved all the theatre I could throw at it.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Also, it's really important to have a great costume. One that you'd be proud to be seen wearing in a cut scene when you save the world.
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Sam, given what you've said in this thread, and what I know of you from your posts over the years, I believe you will greatly enjoy Dark Astoria.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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Well, that's not encouraging. I enjoy having the right choice be harder to pull off, of course I do, but having it come with the danger of failing utterly is... Not nearly as pleasant. I believe I know who you're talking about since I did run part of the first arc on Test, but I really do hate failable objectives as a general thing. This has less to do with storytelling, although it's still related, and more to do with the fact that I just hate lose conditions.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
If you choose 1 or 2, the NPC will just agree. If you choose 3, they will refuse, and you have to defeat the NPC and its allies within the timer, or else both of the bad things happen anyway.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In this particular case, I welcome the challenge. The choice, and let me reiterate the word choice, to be irrational and take on a greater challenge is really worth it here, not because we get better drops or extra xp, but because the final outcome is better if we never compromise. There's a big difference between heroes and profissionals, who are ruled by logic and would never jeopardize the whole to save a few. Heroes are different, they would risk it all to save a single life, no matter the odds. And sometimes they succeed.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Well, that's not encouraging. I enjoy having the right choice be harder to pull off, of course I do, but having it come with the danger of failing utterly is... Not nearly as pleasant. I believe I know who you're talking about since I did run part of the first arc on Test, but I really do hate failable objectives as a general thing. This has less to do with storytelling, although it's still related, and more to do with the fact that I just hate lose conditions.
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It is precisely because the players are expected to fail in that situation that victory was so sweet - unlike WWD, Dark Astoria definitely gave the impression that things could have gone alot worse if it wasn't for us.
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What worries me is that from people's descriptions, this particular event seems VERY easy to fail. Like I said before, I enjoy it when the "good" path is harder, but I draw a very thick line between "difficulty" and "chance to fail." A difficult task is one that prevents me from continuing. An easily failable task is one which always allows me to continue, but prevents me from retrying it. Considering MMOs lack the quicksave/quickload feature, that actually is a concern.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
It is precisely because the players are expected to fail in that situation that victory was so sweet - unlike WWD, Dark Astoria definitely gave the impression that things could have gone alot worse if it wasn't for us.
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Suffice it to say that I don't want a repeat of Tina's old 10-minute mission.
I'm hoping it won't be as bad as I feat it might be, but anything people define as a "challenge" raises instant red flags for me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Don't raise that flag yet, we're throwing around the word "challenge" when it's mostly catching us unaware and unprepared. We (and the mission designer, I assume) are working under the notion that a lvl 50 incarnate is going to be playing with raised difficult settings, which of course clashes poorly with unexpected timers. Without spoiling it too much for you, a reasonably slotted character playing at base difficulty (with bosses turned off) will not have any problems with that mission |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What worries me is that from people's descriptions, this particular event seems VERY easy to fail. Like I said before, I enjoy it when the "good" path is harder, but I draw a very thick line between "difficulty" and "chance to fail." A difficult task is one that prevents me from continuing. An easily failable task is one which always allows me to continue, but prevents me from retrying it. Considering MMOs lack the quicksave/quickload feature, that actually is a concern.
Suffice it to say that I don't want a repeat of Tina's old 10-minute mission. I'm hoping it won't be as bad as I feat it might be, but anything people define as a "challenge" raises instant red flags for me. |
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You can fail this, but I am a pretty casual player and I have not failed it yet, even on my characters who do not solo well. I have died during it and used a self rez. I have emptied my inspiration tray and scrambled for to use temp powers I did not have in my trays. In short, it is very challenging for some of my characters but it feels great when I win and I had to really stretch to do it. It feels heroic. On my non-solo types I play this at +0/0 but with bosses on if that is any help. (There are levels when heading to 50 I turn bosses off, but by 50 I think the bosses need to be there, even for my squishies)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What worries me is that from people's descriptions, this particular event seems VERY easy to fail. Like I said before, I enjoy it when the "good" path is harder, but I draw a very thick line between "difficulty" and "chance to fail." A difficult task is one that prevents me from continuing. An easily failable task is one which always allows me to continue, but prevents me from retrying it. Considering MMOs lack the quicksave/quickload feature, that actually is a concern.
Suffice it to say that I don't want a repeat of Tina's old 10-minute mission. I'm hoping it won't be as bad as I feat it might be, but anything people define as a "challenge" raises instant red flags for me. |
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Worrying about things I'm not familiar with and can't control is what I do best |
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Don't raise that flag yet, we're throwing around the word "challenge" when it's mostly catching us unaware and unprepared. We (and the mission designer, I assume) are working under the notion that a lvl 50 incarnate is going to be playing with raised difficult settings, which of course clashes poorly with unexpected timers. Without spoiling it too much for you, a reasonably slotted character playing at base difficulty (with bosses turned off) will not have any problems with that mission
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However, you do raise a good point - a lot of the people who mention this seem to be bragging about beating it at +4x8 or some such. Which, I admit, is great as bragging rights go, but which might also mean that a... "Workable" stalker should still be able to achieve it.Thanks, that's actually very encouraging news
Also, question: Does this fight end the mission, or can said mission be reset? That's important to know.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah, I know I'm probably the only person who still plays the the old Launch arcs (I exaggerate), but every time I replay them, I seem to rediscover some fond memory about why I became so invested in City of Heroes to begin with and why that investment still keeps me here almost eight years later. See, when I first started playing City of Heroes back in 2004, I wasn't what you'd call "methodical" about what story bits I ran. Mostly, I hit up whatever came up and tried to sort out the story from the souvenir at the end. This means that while I've read a lot of the old stories, I don't remember much about them, and what I do remember, I can't really put down to a particular contact or a particular mission.
Well, today, Cadao Kestrel reminded me of one big reason why I fell in love with City of Heroes to begin with an, ironically enough, one big reason why I'm so disappointed with it of late. It's all neatly contained within the last few sentences of his wrap-up on the Envoy of Shadows arc, an arc I don't think I've run in probably four years. He says this:
Honestly, it's this kind of optimism I've been missing the most in City of Heroes pretty much since I17 or I18. I know it may bot be "art," I know it may not be "mature" (even if the game is PG13), I know it may not be "serious," but you know what? I'm fine with that. I'm fine with being a wishy-washy self-serving barbarian if it means I walk away from a story feeling happier than I did when I came to it. It may not be oscar-worthy storytelling, but it's the kind of storytelling I like the most, personally. And the more I re-run old hero content, the more I realise just how far from those happy days of irresponsible fun we have actually gone.
*edit*
Great... I misspelled Cadao's name with a K and I can't edit my title. Woe is me.