Blaster performance test.

The only Scrappers I've had to stretch to soft cap were resistance based and therefore benefited from any amount of defense due to the layered mitigation (and many of those sets have a self heal too). With other Scrapper secondaries, after adding sets like Kinetic Combat and Reactive Armor, I've never had to stretch too far to at least get s/l to 45%. And I can do that without having to take powers I only plan to use as mules, or having to spend billions so I can still have decent recharge/damage/accuracy/ect.

While I agree with your point that the extra slotting options on a Blaster can make it seem as easy/easier to soft cap, those slotting options are more costly on a Blaster. However, I am not saying that blasters should have it easier, I am only saying that while you can build for defense on a Blaster, it doesn't mean that it's just as easy as a it is for a Scrapper when you look at the various costs and benefits.

You may consider having someone call you an idiot or a liar just fine. I don't

Now let me ask you something.


So let me ask you question what could I have said that I didn't to make it plainer I was speaking of defense and adding defense with IOs ? The initial statement plainly refers to survivability, resistance and defense as 3 different things. There are examples of how to do what I was talking about. Where could be more be given.

Now I noticed you were talking about survivability in your reply and it was the point of my initial statement how about a comparison ?

Invulnerability was claimed to be 20 times stronger than a blaster.

Invulnerability is strongest against smash lethal damage an SO only build with dull pain active and the fighting pool, combat jumping and maneuvers will have

S/L def =25%
S//L resistance = 70%
HP = 2400 hp ::from dull pain and accolades::

A blaster using the ice epic
S/L def = 28 %
S/l Resistance = 16%
HP = 1609 from frostwork and accolades

the scrapper/blaster overall survivability = (def mitigation ratio)*(resistance mitigation ratio) * (hp ratio)

= (.22/.25)* (.84/.30)* (2400/1600) = 3.69

3.7 is much less than 20

None of this takes into account status effects, or the fact the blaster can take a second heal and fight at range.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=216944

This was a really great thread by Fury Flechette that broke up shield scrappers by price and performance.

I have no trouble making range softcapped blaster builds with less compromise at each price point.

Range softcapped blaster compared to a scrapper softcapped to all three positions who also has significant other mitigation? You are trying to demonstrate that "its no harder to build a blaster for defense than it is a scrapper." But that is only true if you narrow your focus significantly AND exclude several scrapper secondaries.

Your original statement is odd and too broad. You have clarified it since then, but the original words and even the sentiment behind them should be altered, because they are, simply, wrong.

Would you care to make an argument to support your case or should anyone accept it just because you say so ?

To give you some things to think about should you chose to.

1. Blasters do not need all three positions they can fight entirely at range and prevent their enemies from getting in melee range.
2. Range is mitigation against almost all the mobs in the game. You aren't going to take damage from the melee attacks they can't use.
3. The scrapper and the blaster both have access to other forms of mitigation. Your position is far to one sided.

Am I reading you correctly ?

Are you saying that people who don't play their characters to their best potential should do as well as people who do ?

If you want to play a blaster like a scrapper, just play a scrapper. Don't go complaining that a blaster isn't as good a scrapper as a scrapper.

I don't see how that link helps your argument. It simply provides several builds at different price points and doesn't mention anything about difficulty or sacrifice to soft cap defense.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here since that link mentions nothing of compromise.
While I agree with this point, again I think you are missing the larger picture because if you are getting said ranged defense through this method...
...then you have just added 20 slots to powers that would invalidate your ranged defense should you try to use them. I'd call 20 wasted slots quite a compromise.

So one again, "it can be done" is not the same as "it's no more difficult."

You listed 5 items, 4 of them say exactly the same thing. That is kind of an odd way to talk. I simplified your list to the two points you made.

If I am going to lower my damage output that much, I might as well play something with passive mitigation as opposed to someone who has to spend time keeping out of melee and/or using lower damage attacks to mez enemies.
Have you considered the possibility that the reason you can play with a regen scrapper without much issue is that he is outdamaging you. I've stripped aggro off Invuln scrappers and have had blasters strip aggro off my Invuln. A blaster who is bringing the pain is tough to keep alive when a scrapper is your teammate and you are not IOing out, IME.

*twitch, twitch*

A factor of 20 sounds more like what happens if you soft cap both characters, and/or possibly cap the Invul's L/S resists.

This is complete nonsense. My Blaster is as durable or more durable than the average Scrapper player, and playing him entirely in melee is a big part of that. Playing /Mental at range is gimping yourself if you have a high end build.

Well I think its because I have been using ranged defense for my examples but the counter arguments are based on imaginary hypotheticals with no examples or numbers to back up the claims.


Well if they can't attack you on a vector doesn't that count as mitigation ?

If you play at range melee attacks can't be used against and the only AoE attacks that can be used against you are targeted AoE, PBAoE is ruled out.



Its always important to do the math.

Invuln Scrapper
S/L def =45%
S//L resistance = 75%
HP = 2400 hp ::from dull pain and accolades::

A blaster using the ice epic and softcapped
S/L def = 45 %
S/l Resistance = 16%
HP = 1609 from frostwork and accolades

the scrapper/blaster overall survivability = (def mitigation ratio)*(resistance mitigation ratio) * (hp ratio)

= (.1/.1)* (.84/.25)* (2400/1600) = 5.04

5 is still less than 20.

THB you are saying that your blaster which is just about the best blaster you can possibly play is as durable as an average scrapper.

I said " Don't go complaining that a blaster isn't as good a scrapper as a scrapper."

I don't see where we are in disagreement.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...77&postcount=5

This post in that thread talks about the tradeoffs.


That is only one way of doing things and it is meant as nothing more than an example showing how easy it can be.



I keep providing examples and methods of how it can be done with very little pain.

If you show me an example of how you had to make difficult choices and sacrifices maybe I can show you how they can be avoided ?

You were implying that Blasters can't be best utilized playing in melee range, or as you put it, "like a Scrapper." My Blaster is a Scrapper and a half and no one is gonna tell me otherwise. Not even you BLA.

Yes, that post does talk about tradeoffs but it "doesn't mention anything about difficulty or sacrifice to soft cap defense."
And I was stating that despite how easy it may appear that "ease" come at the cost of 20 slots and 4 wasted power choices (unless you 6 slot brawl), as well as having to neglect all powers that are not ranged. Personally I see this as a compromise, and I count these factors as costs.
You haven't given any examples that don't come at a high cost of some sort. I can fairly easily go into mids and create a build with soft capped defense for any AT, with complete disregard to functionality. That doesn't mean that every AT in the game is completely equal in regards to building for defense, it only means that it can be done.

I don't dispute that Blasters can be built for defense and I also don't dispute that it can be done easily (and as you have shown it can be done for only a couple million influence). What I am arguing is that it is ridiculous to claim that it is no more difficult to soft cap a Blaster than it is for a Scrapper when you look at the whole picture.

Melee attacks usually can't be used against you. You can still be mezzed or have to fight in a constrained space where you can't get the elevation or hallway length that will reliably keep foes out of range. The only sets that are particularly strong at keeping foes out of melee range in such circumstances are Dark, thanks to Tenebrous Tentacles, and Devices, thanks to Caltrops.

And I'm sorry, but why does it matter if PBAoEs are excluded? There are plenty of TAoEs out there. Even just Council/5th human bosses are armed with shotguns that can ruin your day because they fire TAoEs. (This is the voice of experience.)

Indeed.

I would first like to mention that the power I think you're looking for seems to be Hoarfrost, not Frostworks. Compared to Dull Pain, this power is very challenging to have permanent uptime, given it has a base recharge/duration ratio of 4.5. If we assume a Blaster with 200% total recharge for the power (100% slotted an a fairly impressive 200% global), the power will be back in 135 seconds. When the power is down, the survival ratio above changes to (.1/.1)* (.84/.25)* (2400/1445) which is around 5.6. Still not 20, to be sure.

But now lets take a more holistic view of "survival". One thing your calculation ignores is HP recovery. Lets assume only slotted Health, Dull Pain for the Scrapper and Hoarfrost for the Blaster. Let's assume both characters get optimal benefit from the healing of their respective powers.

Slotted Dull Pain is about an 80% heal (about 1070 HP) every 180s. Slotted Hoarfrost is about a 60% heal (about 723 HP) every 270s. For a Scrapper that's about 6 HP/sec. For a Blaster that's about 2.7 HP/s. With slotted Health, accolades and Dull Pain, the Scrapper regenerates about 18 HP/sec. The Blaster with slotted Health, accolades and Hoarfrost regenerates about 12 HP/sec, or about 11 HP/sec when Hoarfrost is down.

Adding the regen and healing together gives the Scrapper about 24 HP/sec recovery and the Blaster around around 14.7 HP/sec, 13.5 when Hoarfrost is down.

Now, we can get the "immortality line" - the DPS each character could survive forever, by dividing these HP/sec numbers by the respective damage admittances. Taking the ratio of these immortality lines looks like what you've done for HP, but with the HP/sec in place of HP.

(.1/.1)* (.84/.25)* (24/14.7) = 5.5
(.1/.1)* (.84/.25)* (24/13.5) = 6.0

So for an SO'd build with Hasten and no other self-heals, the Scrapper is going to be able to stand around and ignore between 5.5 and 6.0 times as much incoming L/S damage as the Blaster, on average.

Definitely not 20, but certainly nothing to sneeze at.

(By the way, I if I switch to something like E/N damage, assume both have gone all-out on L/S defense at the expense of E/N or ranged, and both took Tough/Weave and CJ, I get that the Scrapper can still take about 2x as much damage as the Blaster without ever dying, mostly because the Blaster gets zip for E/N resists and the Scrapper has better E/N defense from Invinc and Tough Hide.)

Edit: Given the clarification that the factor of 20 was referring to pre-ED, pre-GDN, pre-I7 critter attack mechanics changes, being able to hit a factor of 6, even to just one damage type, is actually pretty good.

THB your Arch/ment really is a job well done. Its also the best argument I can see against all these people saying blasters get blown away by a stiff wind.

So no hibernate from the cold epic ?

I could never call the man who bought my mid level rolls way back when and got me involved in playing the market a pig.

But you are full of it.

That has zero relevance to where blasters are today and even less to the overall conversation. It just pushes the idea that blasters keel over at the sight of danger.

You say that but so far you haven't given any examples. Would you care to try to softcap a /regen or a /fire build ?

Or if you like go through that thread of shield scrappers and see what it takes to get their end usage to the point where you can run their best attack chains indefinitely ? And fit in a self heal without losing any of their damage potential ?

I'm not sure what that would prove? I've tried both of those in the past, which resulted in a highly survivable character with may layers of mitigation, and neither needed to be soft capped in the first place in order to be survivable. I don't see how focusing on outliers helps your argument, unless by "Scrappers" you meant "resist based Scrapper secondaries." But even then, you are comparing building for defense on a character that has no damage mitigation aside from the ability to attack from range to a character that has damage resistance, faster health regeneration, and/or the ability to increase their health pool. Not to mention that all Scrappers have access to the ancillary power pools with ranged attacks so they can build for ranged defense and avoid melee as well (which is no more absurd than a blaster that six slots a bunch of melee powers and then only fights from ranged).
I can see now that we are having two completely different conversations. I don't think anyone is claiming that Blasters don't have any potential to be tough; I have many very survivable level 50 Blasters myself. I also happen to have some very survivable level 50 Scrappers that I spent much less time, energy and influence to get there.

Am I arguing that Blasters need to be tougher to compete with Scrappers? No. The ATs are completely different beasts and I think that a survivability comparison between them is ridiculous. There are certain Blaster builds that are more survivable than your average Scrapper, but that does not mean that all Blasters as a generalized group are some kind of untapped powerhouse. I'm not sure what you think you are arguing here.