Quote:
The math says nothing about what your specific experience will be with Blasters, or what your perception of that experience will be.
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Originally Posted by Issen
Sorry, I was speaking of Blasters when I said 'me', since I'm referring to my experience with Blasters. My apologies.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
with all due respec to THB this test reveals or explains nothing since your experience will obviously differ from everyone elses, that being said people will eithr take this as your ego proving something or you legimatly believe that there might be something between a blaster and a stalker, 2 completely different ATs with almost 2 complete opposite mechanics, i admire your contribution and that is why i hope in no way am i offending you, but i see this ultimately doing nothing for the community other than recording your progress and comparing the two ATs of which we know about.
Today's notes:
* L11 is rough. It's a lot less rough if you have part-time mez protection, some defense and -ToHit, and a self-heal, but either way, rough.
* Blaster is still ahead, maybe pulled up a little bit. Despite the quintuple face-flop (5-1 blaster, first debt on either character.) Now has Aim.
* Setting +1 difficulty (scrapper) and x2 difficulty (blaster) gives different results. I will pick one and go with it.
With all due respect to sypher_vendetta, there's a huge difference between "is not conclusive proof that will end the argument" and "reveals or explains nothing". Obviously I'm going to learn a lot more "playing like a new kid" than someone else will learn from reading my posts, but there's still a lot you can learn from one data point.
There's a space between "nothing" and "everything" and that's where THB and I (and StratoNexus? Do you have a scrapper in this test too?) are playing.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
I'm not really sure how that example establishes shenanigans. If you could show that such a thing was being achieved by lots of people all the time then you would potentially have a compelling counterpoint.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I really don't want to mix it up in this thread but SHENANIGANS
That is a scrapper blaster duo running original Positron in an hour and 14 minutes before we had access to +6 level powers when exemped and without a kajillion inf build. And with one death that wasn't the blaster. |
Granted, we're talking about a potentially misremembered dev comment given second hand, but I'm gathering that your claim of shenanigans is based on the assumption that a dev actually said what Fulmens remembers. If they did say that, your screenshot doesn't disprove it as a general observation. It just shows that it's not always a disaster for the Blaster.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I'm glad you're picking up the slack for me here, thanks Fulmens. I haven't been able to do this in almost a week- Being able to pick up converters with Villain/Emp merits has been restricting most of my COH time since I'm currently raising funds for a project, and the rest of my spare COH time has been spent working on an Archery/Mental guide. I'll get back to this as soon as I have time, probably pretty soon.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Today's notes:
* L11 is rough. It's a lot less rough if you have part-time mez protection, some defense and -ToHit, and a self-heal, but either way, rough. * Blaster is still ahead, maybe pulled up a little bit. Despite the quintuple face-flop (5-1 blaster, first debt on either character.) Now has Aim. * Setting +1 difficulty (scrapper) and x2 difficulty (blaster) gives different results. I will pick one and go with it. With all due respect to sypher_vendetta, there's a huge difference between "is not conclusive proof that will end the argument" and "reveals or explains nothing". Obviously I'm going to learn a lot more "playing like a new kid" than someone else will learn from reading my posts, but there's still a lot you can learn from one data point. There's a space between "nothing" and "everything" and that's where THB and I (and StratoNexus? Do you have a scrapper in this test too?) are playing. |
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Which says nothing, because a low level regen scrapper on a kajillion inf build is about as epic as a low level willpower scrapper on an SO build. |
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I really don't want to mix it up in this thread but SHENANIGANS
[snipped picture] That is a scrapper blaster duo running original Positron in an hour and 14 minutes before we had access to +6 level powers when exemped and without a kajillion inf build. And with one death that wasn't the blaster. |
Quote:
Soon. Soon. I had recently leveled up some armored toons and wanted to wait for Staff. I'll start my scrapper Tuesday.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
and StratoNexus? Do you have a scrapper in this test too?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Stone, BP and I duoed just about all the blueside TFs and we did them with no temps and no deaths. When someone says that a scrapper is 20 time stronger than a blaster they are just full of it. The resistance caps on blasters and scrappers are the same and its no harder to build a blaster for defense than it is a scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Which says nothing, because a low level regen scrapper on a kajillion inf build is about as epic as a low level willpower scrapper on an SO build.
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That screenshot was from Jul 09. Blasters could deal with the game perfectly well back then and they can still deal with it now.
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Do you say that because you believe it, or because you think there is any chance at all anyone else will?
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
The resistance caps on blasters and scrappers are the same and its no harder to build a blaster for defense than it is a scrapper.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Are you rude because you are insecure or because you think it makes you look intelligent ?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Do you say that because you believe it, or because you think there is any chance at all anyone else will?
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Edit: I really dislike being dragged into the mud the pigs doing the dragging always win so here are a few of the facts that support my statement.
- All Blasters can select an epic defense shield that provides 15 points of defense, no scrappers can do that.
- The blaster ATO set provides twice the positional defense the scrapper set does.
- Blasters can slot high value positional defense sets into their attacks which they have many of.
- Blasters have a greater flexibility in what powers they need to take and which they can use as mules because they have so many redundant attacks
- Some blasters can slot the coercive persuasion set which provides 5% positional defense.
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Which isn't what I was arguing. I was saying it wasn't surprising that the /regen was the one that died, because...well. It's a /regen. |
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
That screenshot was from Jul 09. Blasters could deal with the game perfectly well back then and they can still deal with it now. |
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I was surprised because it was Black Phoenix. I have another screenshot from one where Wello and I worked to get him killed and Wello died.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Which isn't what I was arguing. I was saying it wasn't surprising that the /regen was the one that died, because...well. It's a /regen.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Stuff
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I mean... It's just that... I have some defense built blasters. But scrappers. I mean scrappers...
I don't know where to begin.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
The thing is that any defense a Blaster can get through set bonuses a Scrapper has the option of surpassing out of the box. Scrappers that don't have native high defense will have high resistance, and the same general options for building high defenses for layered mitigation. While I think there is a valid argument for /Mental Blasters having comparable survivability to a Fiery Aura Scrapper at the highest end only, I don't think it's even slightly reasonable to try to make a case that Blasters have the same survivability potential of Scrappers overall.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Are you rude because you are insecure or because you think it makes you look intelligent ?
Edit: I really dislike being dragged into the mud the pigs doing the dragging always win so here are a few of the facts that support my statement.
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I've said in the past that Blasters *can* be survivable as Scrappers, but I never meant that it's the norm. I wouldn't be surprised if my Arch/Mental out-survived a bunch of melee characters that are built and played less efficiently than me, but the only melee set that a Blaster can compete with from a pure numbers perspective, assuming ideal builds on both counts, is Fiery Aura. The same resists to common damage types and same softcaps can be reached on both- Where the Scrapper can benefit from higher HP the Blaster can benefit from regenerating over 100HPS and having better control/utility, plus faster killing speeds if the right primary is chosen. On the other hand, sets like Dark and Electric Armor will be able to survive things that even the most optimized Blaster couldn't withstand.
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I'd suggest actually beginning and seeing what you can get.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I mean... It's just that... I have some defense built blasters. But scrappers. I mean scrappers...
I don't know where to begin. |
All the blasters I am currently playing have builds that softcap range, smash/lethal and usually energy.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The thing is that any defense a Blaster can get through set bonuses a Scrapper has the option of surpassing out of the box. Scrappers that don't have native high defense will have high resistance, and the same general options for building high defenses for layered mitigation. While I think there is a valid argument for /Mental Blasters having comparable survivability to a Fiery Aura Scrapper at the highest end only, I don't think it's even slightly reasonable to try to make a case that Blasters have the same survivability potential of Scrappers overall.
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But that isn't what I said. I said "its no harder to build a blaster for defense than it is a scrapper." If anything its easier to add defense to a blaster with IOs than it is to a scrapper. The blaster has many more options.
Quote:
Tell that to the guy standing behind you with the big shield.
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
But that isn't what I said. I said "its no harder to build a blaster for defense than it is a scrapper." |
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While I agree with your individual points I think that you might be missing the larger picture. While it is possible to build a blaster with soft-capped defense (I have several), it comes at a cost. |
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
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I agree that all blasters have access to an epic defense shield that provides 15 points of defense. However, it is very difficult/expensive, and in most cases, impossible to soft cap defense without it; and oftentimes still difficult/expensive with it. Also, I find it odd to compare Blasters and Scrappers in the first place.
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I don't think it's ever impossible to softcap s/l defense without a +def epic shield, and it doesn't even have to be that expensive unless you want insane recharge too. My Blaster has softcapped s/l defense layered with 182% global recharge. THAT was expensive. The softcapping wasn't the expensive part, getting all the recharge and enhancement values I needed on top of the softcap and 30-50% s/l/e resistance was.
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Originally Posted by Flame_Strike
However, it is very difficult/expensive, and in most cases, impossible to soft cap defense without it; and oftentimes still difficult/expensive with it.
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5 Sets of Thunderstrike = 18.75 def ranged|
Originally Posted by Flame_Strike
While I agree with your individual points I think that you might be missing the larger picture. While it is possible to build a blaster with soft-capped defense (I have several), it comes at a cost.
I agree that all blasters have access to an epic defense shield that provides 15 points of defense. However, it is very difficult/expensive, and in most cases, impossible to soft cap defense without it; and oftentimes still difficult/expensive with it. Also, I find it odd to compare Blasters and Scrappers in the first place. |
4 Sets of Mako's bite = 15% def ranged
Weave, hover, maneuvers = 11.7% all
___
45.5 % def ranged
::shrugs:: couple hundred million tops ?
Now that I think about it, you're right. All the builds I've had problems hitting the soft cap were due to not wanting to compromise in other areas (damage/recharge/power choices). So, I'll retract that statement, it's never impossible, but, it still comes at a cost and not always in the way of inf.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Flame_Strike
Now that I think about it, you're right. All the builds I've had problems hitting the soft cap were due to not wanting to compromise in other areas (damage/recharge/power choices). So, I'll retract that statement, it's never impossible, but, it still comes at a cost and not always in the way of inf.
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You can have your cake and eat it too if you spend enough and think creatively enough when you're making your build. See my last post.
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I have six blasters and only one of them has both five ranged powers and four melee (unless you're suggesting I should be six slotting brawl). I understand that for most of these blasters I can probably take powers I don't need/won't use and then six slot them all so I can reach the soft cap to one position for only a few hundred million influence. But, that is the cost I was talking about. Yes, you can soft cap a blaster but it comes at a higher overall cost. I don't have to sacrifice nearly as much when I build on my scrappers. All I am saying is that "it can be done" and "it's just as easy" are not the same thing.
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
5 Sets of Thunderstrike = 18.75 def ranged
4 Sets of Mako's bite = 15% def ranged Weave, hover, maneuvers = 11.7% all ___ 45.5 % def ranged ::shrugs:: couple hundred million tops ? |
Quote:
On any scrapper primary that doesn't have a parry type power its usually much harder for me. The little extra def that scrappers get from the pools just doesn't make up for the greater flexibility in slotting you get with blasters.
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Originally Posted by Flame_Strike
I have six blasters and only one of them has both five ranged powers and four melee (unless you're suggesting I should be six slotting brawl). I understand that for most of these blasters I can probably take powers I don't need/won't use and then six slot them all so I can reach the soft cap to one position for only a few hundred million influence. But, that is the cost I was talking about. Yes, you can soft cap a blaster but it comes at a higher overall cost. I don't have to sacrifice nearly as much when I build on my scrappers. All I am saying is that "it can be done" and "it's just as easy" are not the same thing.
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Quote:
BL, when you say things that seem misinformed or misleading, being challenged on them is not "being dragged through the mud". When you make claims, people are going to respond if they seem really out of whack or out of place. It's completely normal. If people are rude about it, that's one thing, but just the act of challenging what you say isn't rude.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Edit: I really dislike being dragged into the mud the pigs doing the dragging always win so here are a few of the facts that support my statement..
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Quote:
| All Blasters can select an epic defense shield that provides 15 points of defense, no scrappers can do that. |
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| The blaster ATO set provides twice the positional defense the scrapper set does. |
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| Blasters can slot high value positional defense sets into their attacks which they have many of. |
Quote:
| Blasters have a greater flexibility in what powers they need to take and which they can use as mules because they have so many redundant attacks |
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| Some blasters can slot the coercive persuasion set which provides 5% positional defense |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
We'll see what it looks like in a few levels, but for now it was a shock that I'd forgotten about.
That is a scrapper blaster duo running original Positron in an hour and 14 minutes before we had access to +6 level powers when exemped and without a kajillion inf build. And with one death that wasn't the blaster.