Quote:
There is no such thing as a perfect experiment. Researchers don't even bother looking for a perfect experiment to support their conclusions. They look for the best experiment available.|
Originally Posted by -Urchin-
Garbage in, garbage out.
|
As far as I can tell, as far as blaster performance testing that has a shot at yielding a statistically significant result goes (without peeking at any data mining behind the devs' dungeon master screen), this thread's the only game in town.
There are limitations on this test, but we've got some good ideas about what those limitations are -- chiefly, strong bias in favor of low levels where inter-archetype differences are artificially reduced, and the likelihood that testers who post on this board have more experience playing blasters than they do playing stalkers. So the test's results can still be meaningful within that state of informed awareness of the test's limitations.
I think the "cost" is less inf and more 16 slots that wouldn't have otherwise been placed in the build (my estimate- 1 each in the ranged attacks, 2 each in three melee attacks, 5 in brawl), plus a wide variety of IO benefits you give up for those very specific bonuses. A [hypothetical] blaster with some Defense might have been able to get another 50% Recharge - four LoTGs and two purple sets- as well as another 80% or so Regen and a few other handy benefits.
You're talking about at least 54 slots out of, what, 93 total?
Edited to clarify: 54 slots = 9 six-slotted powers.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
For a second, I was freaking out that you were going to sink 13 out of your 24 power choices on 9 single target damage attacks, tough, weave, hover, and maneuvers. Leaving only 11 power choices left for other essential functions.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
5 Sets of Thunderstrike = 18.75 def ranged
4 Sets of Mako's bite = 15% def ranged Weave, hover, maneuvers = 11.7% all ___ 45.5 % def ranged |
But then I remembered, oh, right, blaster, ell oh ell.
It's actually possible to get a high recharge, well slotted Blaster build with good positional defense if you consider the alpha slot. The totals and enhancement values on this build are very close to the s/l softcapped build I'm currently running on my Blaster, but it trades the s/l softcap for 32.5% defense to all positions (a small purple from the softcap.)
There are a couple of things I can't reconcile that prevent me from using this on live, such as Drain Psyche being almost a full second from perma (that concern could be alleviated by running Ageless and using Hybrid for status protection when it comes out) and no room for a Hecatomb proc in Mind Probe. Other than those nuances, it's a perfectly viable build. With Hybrid and the next ATO set I might be able to use a variation of this on live.
The build uses Agility and Accolades so turn the Incarnate/Accolade tabs on.
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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Quote:
Good it demonstrates that you are just talking out your rear. The Tychonic system of the earth being in the center of the universe but having the sun orbit the earth and planets orbiting the sun was overtaking the Ptolemaic system.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
No. Because I said supplanted, not generated. Alternate theories existed, but they didn't replace the Ptolemaic and other heliocentric models until people could perform accurate tests. Kepler's work, for example, wasn't generally accepted until after his death, when people were able to test his work by making a prediction (about the transit of Mercury and Venus) and then performing an experiment to test it (by watching for said transit - Horrox using a telescope to do precisely that).
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Its ironic, that you can note the Passover/Easter holiday here
Quote:
| This is a non-starter in rational argumentation, it has no meaning: ArcanaVille and I could easily make the same claim in your direction. Part of the reason this response is coming so late (beyond the fact that I have been away from my home for several days in the past week, due to vacation, home remodeling, and Passover), is that it smacks of an intellectual arrogance bordering on rudeness ("I haven't been able to convince you, so obviously you can't be convinced") and I was quite sure that I didn't want to continue the discussion. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here I am. |
In case you don't recognize it, that's Galileo before the inquisition were what was preventing the heliocentric from being adopted.
Quote:
| That is a method. As ArcanaVille pointed out later, data is simply that: data. What you do with the data is up to you, and there is a lot of room for error. |
I have to wonder what epiphany Arcanavile had, that led to the change in position.
Quote:
Oh my go away for 10 days and miss the charm offensive.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Do you say that because you believe it, or because you think there is any chance at all anyone else will?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
S/L def =25% S//L resistance = 70% HP = 2400 hp ::from dull pain and accolades:: A blaster using the ice epic S/L def = 28 % S/l Resistance = 16% HP = 1609 from frostwork and accolades the scrapper/blaster overall survivability = (def mitigation ratio)*(resistance mitigation ratio) * (hp ratio) = (.22/.25)* (.84/.30)* (2400/1600) = 3.69 3.7 is much less than 20 None of this takes into account status effects, or the fact the blaster can take a second heal and fight at range. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
A factor of 20 sounds more like what happens if you soft cap both characters, and/or possibly cap the Invul's L/S resists.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Invuln Scrapper
S/L def =45% S//L resistance = 75% HP = 2400 hp ::from dull pain and accolades:: A blaster using the ice epic and softcapped S/L def = 45 % S/l Resistance = 16% HP = 1609 from frostwork and accolades the scrapper/blaster overall survivability = (def mitigation ratio)*(resistance mitigation ratio) * (hp ratio) = (.1/.1)* (.84/.25)* (2400/1600) = 5.04 5 is still less than 20. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
Were you explicitly looking at just one target for Invincibility, because at the saturation point, the Scrapper would have 35.7% S/L Def, using your simple metric gives it (.22/.143)*(.84/.30)*(2400/1600)=6.46.
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4 Different comparisons of blaster and not one factors in the fact blasters have 0 mez protection and can derive mitigation from staying at range.
But it doesn't really matter.
The devs are telegraphing what they consider the fix for blaster problems.
And if this ever goes live it just won't matter. Bad enough Stalkers are criting half the time but scrappers using their damage mod and criting half the time will put them so far ahead of blasters in damage it will be sickening.
Quote:
Wow, what a concept! If we can push this on to the others on these boards then we may be able to stop the drive by insults, accusations, and plain childishness. Unfortunately, they expect the OP to feel this way, but some do not share this common courtesy with the OP. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
. Just because I don't like something doesn't mean I expect everyone else to not like it either, it just means I don't like it.
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Do I see correlating blasters to stalkers beneficial in any way? No.
Do I think TwoHeadedBoy is doing a good thing? Yes, because some people do want to see what he comes up with. The posters who do not like it do not have to come back to it. Why insult him? Why berate him?
Do we really think this will change dev/populace minds? Come on, really?
TwoHeadedBoy, this is in no way against your post. I was just skimming it and couldn't believe the negative and the insults you were getting. I admire that you take the time to do this. Play on!
Quote:
When the devs minds have been changed, it is generally data and experiment that has done it. | Do we really think this will change dev/populace minds? Come on, really? |
Rerunning 2005 experiments in 2012 is worth doing, because the world of the game has changed a lot.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I like how Blasters just gives up one of their ATO procs to fix something inherently wrong with the class. While scrappers and stalkers get yet another damage buff.
gg blasters gg
Quote:
Well they are technically still in development so I hold out hope that won't be the proc. Of course it probably will be the thing, but I can hope right.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
I like how Blasters just gives up one of their ATO procs to fix something inherently wrong with the class. While scrappers and stalkers get yet another damage buff.
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If it does actually go in like that I really hope people will get upset about it instead of 'squeeing' happily at finally getting some form of mez protection on their blaster. Of course that likely won't happen either, but what can you do.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
Quote:
Er, it isn't clear to me from reading it in the Scrapper Second ATO description. Does anyone know if the Crit Chance Increased by 50 percent (i.e. From 10% to 60%), or is a multiplier of +50% applied to your existing crit chance? (i.e. From 10% to 15%?) |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
And if this ever goes live it just won't matter. Bad enough Stalkers are criting half the time but scrappers using their damage mod and criting half the time will put them so far ahead of blasters in damage it will be sickening.
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'Cause I'll be with you on the first being OP as hell, but I'm quite sure the Devs realize that, making the second a more likely interpretation.
Quote:
according to the ppl in beta, it's a flat +50%.
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Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
Er, it isn't clear to me from reading it in the Scrapper Second ATO description. Does anyone know if the Crit Chance Increased by 50 percent (i.e. From 10% to 60%), or is a multiplier of +50% applied to your existing crit chance? (i.e. From 10% to 15%?)
'Cause I'll be with you on the first being OP as hell, but I'm quite sure the Devs realize that, making the second a more likely interpretation. |
Quote:
I see the post. I still seriously doubt they're going to let all scrapper damage be permanently and in all circumstances be functionally improved by a flat 50% by one enhancement on Live. I'm all for more enhancement of the crit mechanic - It helps Scrappers and Stalkers bypass the damage cap in a way - but that's a bit much. Rednames have declared them a work in progress.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
according to the ppl in beta, it's a flat +50%.
|
Anyway, back to Blasters.
I realize the OP's experiment is checking performance in a "Damage Dealing" sense, but I'm confused as to why you're comparing a ranged character to a melee one. Why not pick a Corr instead of a Stalker? Even if you can play your Blaster as a Blapper, the Stalker has no alternative but to be a melee character, and I don't think the choice between taking a Blaster or a Stalker when you need just one more damage dealer is one people really make.
It seems to me the result of your experiment is predetermined by the ATs you've chosen, and you're merely going through the exercise to have your conclusion proven correct, which is only one set of data. You really can't say anything definitive after this.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
White Hot Flash: you may have misunderstood the experiment. It's performance in a "playing the game and seeing how it performs" sense. How much do you die, how much do you win, what works better and what only seems like it would work better?
I got back to my scrapper/blaster pair just now after 11 days off, and the blaster had a MUCH better day. I was teaming with a friend who was a Dominator, pre-DO's and on the scrapper side, we spent 45 minutes on a single CoT radio mission, +1/x1. Those batches of spectrals are hell on melee, and when they're +2 to mission owner they're even worse. In a moment of dumb, I actually got pulled into another spawn (also ghosts) once; I blame not having had breakfast yet. I don't even know how many times we died, but it was a LOT.
With the Blaster, in a little less time we did three missions, plus one level/buying enhancement run: Trolls (crushing victory), CoT (crushing victory) and Tsoo (sidekick was now DO'd. One wipe-rez-wipe, but other than that, victory. )
Results: Blaster now 18, Scrapper barely 17. Neither one ran through their patrol XP.
Edited to clarify: For me personally, It's been a long time since I played the game "straight up" trying for the new kid experience. Now it's all grab the nemstaff, grab the Sands of Mu, grab four temp powers for healing, endurance, jetpack and a ranged cone attack by level 2; it's not the same game a free player or new VIP sees. Trying to simulate the new VIP experience... there's a lot I've forgotten about being level 16.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
My Staff/Invuln scrapper is level 20 now. I had a very slightly harder road than the blaster. The KB in Energy blast is really effective in the early levels, with the difficulty set to normal (well, with bosses on). That said, the difference was very minor.
I started out on, and tried to keep to, a path that was very similar to the blaster. I did that mostly perfectly until level 9, but even through level 20 I have still run very similar content, if not always exact. Just like on the blaster, I slotted DOs at 12 and have kept them relatively current, although not maxed out.
I experimented with turning my difficulty up to /x2 at level 10, that did not go well. Unfortunately, my FRAPS freaked out on this mission as well, so I only got one of my three faceplants recorded. Went back down to x1. I had meant to try again at DOs, but I forgot. Hopefully, I'll remember to turn it up again next time I play.
Ran another great Synapse; this time we were all 20s or below: 2 brutes, 1 stalker, and my scrapper. Nice time of 1:49 (we did have help on Babbage). I went from level 15 to level 20. Going all the way to level 18 with just the three attacks plus brawl and my origin attack was a little rough, but now that I have Serpent's Reach it is much nicer.
I ran the old Tsoo Rage arc with my blaster and I have begun the new Tsoo arc with the scrapper. With Unyielding and strong Sm/Le resists, Tsoo are pretty easy for the scrapper. The extra range and the range attack of Staff have come in handy a few times to help deal with caltrops.
The blaster has started Peebles arc and I expect to run that with the scrapper as well. While I am trying to run the warrior arc with the blaster, I'll likely run the new 20-24 arc on the scrapper (Laura Lockhart, I think).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I love you guys for keeping this thread on top of the Blaster forums. I ended up having to take almost a week off from COH, which lead into my having to work on hoarding components on my mains for Hybrid (and making inf) so it has been pretty impossible for me to work on this project lately. Thanks for keeping the discussion alive, I'll be back to this ASAP, probably a bit after i23 launches.
Got to put some time in on this today. Finally got to my first formal goal post:
Both are L20. Both took about 10 hours to get there.
Initially, the blaster (Spindizzy) was 20.0 while the scrapper (Contemplative) was 19.6 and I "thought I'd played about the same time on each." The scrapper actually had about 9 hours (both measured by "M" name pedestrians) and at 19.9 , after 15-20 minutes of play, she was at 10 hour. Goes to show: data beats gut.
Obviously this is a pretty rough measure, at this level, but I *think* the Blaster is still slightly ahead and gaining.
Some other measures (from "Acheivements"):
Scrapper took 71,876 damage vs. Blaster, 46,883
Scrapper had burnt 3,960 debt vs. Blaster 4,920
Scrapper mezzed 63 sec. vs. Blaster, 92 sec.
The first one was quite surprising to me- Contemplative is running about 25% range/melee defense AND Dark Melee on top of it- but I guess melee really does hurt that much more than ranged.
The difference between the first and second number probably shows the advantage of getting healed for free by your big hitter attack; Spindizzy got Aid Self eventually, but that's not exactly free or easy, as heals go.
It's hard to tell, but even with the extra debt (neither ever logged out with debt, so patrol XP didn't give a disproportionate advantage to either) I think Spindizzy's still levelling faster.
Current plan is to interleave tips and Monty missions through level 20, join teams (possibly a Sister P) to get past Level Suck, then once we're through that... I'll see what level 22 looks like.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Ran through the Monty missions on both. To my surprise, they took almost exactly the same time. Same number of deaths, but only because Contemplative had a combat rez go bad, whereas Spindizzy managed to survive hers. Range as a defense, maybe?
Contemplative _felt_ a lot more comfortable between the scaling resists, the defenses, and the most-of-the-time mez protection. Ruin Mages are rough for both, but Spindizzy ate an entire tray of insps, twice, to win whereas Contemplative could probably have done it in one, if she'd taken two purples at the start.
Inexperience and getting used to the character cuts both ways. I'm a lot- a LOT- more casual and fearless running the scrapper. And I almost always get away with it. (Rest? I have, like, 25% health and some endurance. I'll be FINE. I've got a combat heal!) And I got planted on the blaster once at the very start, whereof I went "Oh. right. That's how this works."
So far, so [relatively] balanced.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Played the blaster to 25, then played the scrapper to 25, and now I have played the blaster to 28.
The road to 25 was definitely more difficult for the blaster. Level 20 and 21 were fine, but running +1 / x2 after SOs, I faced a tougher road than I generally prefer. I wasn't frustrated and still had much fun, but I definitely wasn't thrilled with the performance. Of note, I did little teaming with the blaster from 21-25. I did want to make sure I purposely soloed a bunch, but I think I ended up doing more soloing than I really intended.
Based on how much better the character does when I team, it is likely that hanging myself out to dry like that hampered my performance perception. Normally, I'd search for even one teammate more often than I did on this project. I am going to try to be more mindful of that and not force myself to solo as much as I did in this level range.
So, I did Peeble's arc, Council, Family, Warriors. The Council were the hardest of those foes. I did some Tsoo missions from an IP contact, they were a bit easier than Council in general. The team missions I did at level 25 were scanners: BP, Sky Raiders, Council, and Warriors. I'd say the Council were toughest again.
I was able to get the Warrior mini-arc and got my Redeemer badge. Things went pretty well here, got a small team going for a few missions to get to level 28. Again, the difference teaming is marked. I have started the Freaklympics arc and plan to finish that (I have also accidentally started Ubelmann, I may do it too). Then I will push to finish out the 1-30 TFs (that will likely get me well into the low 30s). This should get me the Atlas Medallion. I also plan to make all level 30 common IOs, but we will see if I get the energy for that or if I get lazy and just buy more SOs.
Watching the videos make me long for old defiance like an ex-smoker longs for a cigarette after a few drinks and good food.
For the scrapper, levels 20 and 21 felt similar to the blaster. Nothing particularly rough. I did turn the scrapper up to x2 at some point, but left the level slider at 0. Once SOs came, I went to x3 and then +1 (but due to some missions that ignore the slider and leveling early in missions, I actually did fight a fair number of even con enemies). I eventually settled in at +1 / x4.
I ran Laura Lockhart, a tip mission, EXd for a Skyway safeguard, did a speed Who Will Die part1, and then Peeble's arc. There was a lot of teaming 20-23, but Peeble's arc was all (or mostly, but I think all) solo.
It is possible I just got "lucky" on the scrapper and ended up fighting a lot of easier stuff due to how the leveling progression worked out. But as I was crunching the videos I sure thought the scrapper was generally facing worse odds. Yes, the blaster did fight more +1s and +2s, but the scrapper fought more. When I did fight +1s and +2s on the scrapper, it was definitely easier to cope with.
Running the Staff scrapper side by side with the blaster makes me rethink the following:
Quote:
Serpent's Reach has an 80% chance for knock vs. Power Burst's 60%. Serpent's Reach has (slightly) better DPA. Serpent's Reach has a (slightly) faster recharge and (slightly) lower end cost. Serpent's Reach has bonus Accuracy. Granted, PB does knockback instead of KD, but that lone advantage weighed against all the others makes me a little sad (OK, the woo-woo-woosh and FX for PB are great too, but I like the animation for Serpent's Reach better, so it is a close call).|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am still not sure where I fall on PBs ranking amongst the tier 3s. I usually think of them as pretty equal, with the exception of Shout, and Sonic has a lot of other things going for it. Again, I wouldn't argue against increasing the KB and/or KB chance in PB, I just do not find it lacking.
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Stats as of the listed level. My hours in game are not very useful, I've spent time with XP turned off, standing around while doing any number of household activities, etc.
Blaster
Level 25, 6.5 bubs in - 25 hours
162,245 damage taken
26,850 debt (the vast majority of this was post 20 and I think even post 22)
616 seconds mezzed
500,998 infl
Level 28, 2.5 bubs in - 30 hours
217,968 damage taken
67,950 debt
784 seconds mezzed
724,810 infl
Scrapper
Level 25, 8 bubs in - 28 hours
116,724 damage taken
4,960 debt
126 seconds mezzed
395,657 infl
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
That's kind of shocking on the debt. I mean, I vaguely remember that one of the reasons 21 is "level suck" is that debt goes up enormously compared to previous levels. (other reasons: it's a *wide* level in percentage compared to the previous and next level, and of course it has no SO's in it. And, used to be, your DO's were stale as well. )
I don't know if Paragonwiki is out of date or not, but here's what it says:
Code:
mmmyep, level suck.
Level Debt per defeat 18 760 19 880 20 1000 21 1400 22 1800
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
You guys rule for continuing this. My personal bias against low level characters honestly made me a horrible candidate for this experiment. I played both my Blaster and Stalker from the OP past the last update, but my 'review' of both of their performances which I worked on during the play periods of both lead to a very strong desire to write rants on both characters about how lame and terrible every single build in the game is without an IO build at level 50.
Basically, I'm not a fit candidate to perform this experiment objectively since it's my personal opinion that anything who can't even kill level 10, 20 or 30 enemies without batting an eyelash is clearly missing too many of their powers and is therefore doomed to underperform. For me, trying to show that one AT sucks less when it comes to fighting enemies below the level cap is like comparing brands of toilet paper. Regardless of which is better, they serve the same purpose....
But yeah. I like my motivation for starting this experiment. I still maintain that my level 50, IO'd Blaster is as survivable and deals as much damage, while providing as much or more team utility than the majority of Stalkers and Scrappers that I meet. This is a point that requires IO investment, clever building and player skill so it's a hard one to quantify... But arguing that either AT is better or worse at a low level, from my perspective, is just silly. The spoiler: They both suck. They don't even have all their powers yet.
Quote:
It is more due to dying a lot than an increase in amount per death, I think. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
That's kind of shocking on the debt.
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It is funny, while I was playing it felt like a lot more death than while I was crunching the vids.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Do you always like wasting powers and slots for the sake of set bonuses? I have a range soft cap blaster and I certainly didn't need 4 sets of makos to get there lol go waste more time though.