Thoughts on beasts & pet attack chains in general
By
Carnifax_NA,
Posted on: 2012-03-23 10:00 in Masterminds
Demons is pretty much THE top-tier Melee pet set. They have decent range to compensate, lots of decent AoE, ridiculously hot resistances, exotic damage types, etc, etc. Incredibly hard to go wrong there.
And yeah, comparing Beasts to Ninjas, Beasts definitely don't attack as much, but I'm not even sure Ninjas HAVE a gap in their chain as far as I know. My Ninja/Time sees a lot of use and it's just attack after attack, especially on the Genin. My only complaint is that the Oni drops Rain of Fire...only to have my Jounin/Genin immediately kill the anchor seconds later.
I think beasts could use some improvement like Reppu said, but it's definitely not the worst set ever IMO.
So many things wrong with this!
1) Where's the Arsonist listed?
2) Are you factoring in Bots Perma -1000% Regen?
3) Are you factoring in DS's perma -RES?
4) You didn't factor in Brute Fury.
5) Where are the critical hit factors in any of this?
The spreadsheet is also a bit of a mess.
Now:
Not counting buffs is bad.
Not counting debuffs is bad.
This is a flawed sheet and proves nothing, because it's BASE VALUES. Which the Beasts have good Base Values (I've noted this in citation arguments), but this is not taking the whole of the set and embracing it. Thusly:
Thugs perma 10% global damage + Arsonist being WOAH + Bruiser Fury is key to the set's performance.
Demons -RES stacking is key to their ludicrous damage.
Bots being primarily AoE + their perma -1000% Regen is key to their deceptively large STDPS.
This is flawed, as noted, but it's a good attempt.
The major comparison, really?
Beast Damage steroid lasts 15 seconds and is used randomly, sans Pack Mentality which is... 2% per stack? Forgot if the final version is different. 2% +DMG and Crit per stack ontop of a base 10%(?) Crit? So... if you manage to keep it saturated it's +20% Damage and Crit? I could be wrong here, I can't test the set on live because I'm not wasting the points unless I'm convinced to.
The fact is this: I agreed Beast base values are good, they're better than a lot of other sets. The problem is when you look beyond base values (
!) and look at the sets as a whole, you notice...
1) Arsonist and Bruiser are wtfamazingdamage and carry the ENTIRE sets ST Damage, plus Thugs has amazing AoE damage.
2) Bots have amazing AoE damage and deceptively massive (due to -1000% regen) ST Damage potential.
3) Demons are broken lololol -RES stacking to godlike levels and amazing AoE.
Beast has...
1) Steroid powers they waste, but are decent otherwise (Potential pet-wide 150%? damage or so if you're lucky but... yeah. Lucky. 15 seconds, 60 cooldown etc etc. You're more realistic to just average it out and that's also an unlikely thing).
2) Attack chain disparity which is shown clearly.
3) What AoE?
So, their >base< ST damage is higher than most (Not Ninjas)? But their final application and then you MUST note their lack of AoE, is the killing blow against this primary.
Good defenses, I won't deny it. Wouldn't expect any less from pure melee. Too bad they fail on every other level.
Reppu did the buff that the Beast Mastery set just got help in any way?
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You say they completely lack AoE over and over and over and it is simply not true. It IS true that they don't have much AoE, but...
Freezing Roar- Cone, 50 foot radius, 30 degree arc, 16 max targets.
Chilling Howl- Cone, 80 foot radius, 20 degree arc, 3 max target
Claw Swipe- Cone, 7 foot radius, 90 degree arc, 16 max targets x2 (two lions)
Terrible Howl- AoE, 15 foot radius, 16 max targets
Not damaging but:
Ferocious Growl- AoE, 15 foot radius, 6 max targets x2 (two lions) 3 mag stun for 10 seconds at level 32
Not to mention that EACH howler wolf at 32 gets and AoE 25% damage 7.5% tohit buff. Each one.
To say they have no AoE is ludicrous.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
You say they completely lack AoE over and over and over and it is simply not true. It IS true that they don't have much AoE, but...
Freezing Roar- Cone, 50 foot radius, 30 degree arc, 16 max targets. Chilling Howl- Cone, 80 foot radius, 20 degree arc, 3 max target Claw Swipe- Cone, 7 foot radius, 90 degree arc, 16 max targets x2 (two lions) Terrible Howl- AoE, 15 foot radius, 16 max targets Not damaging but: Ferocious Growl- AoE, 15 foot radius, 6 max targets x2 (two lions) 3 mag stun for 10 seconds at level 32 Not to mention that EACH howler wolf at 32 gets and AoE 25% damage 7.5% tohit buff. Each one. To say they have no AoE is ludicrous. |
Chilling Howl- Cone, 80 foot radius, 20 degree arc, 3 max target <--- Is not an AoE
Terrible Howl- AoE, 15 foot radius, 16 max targets <--- One minute cooldown garbage
Claw Swipe- Cone, 7 foot radius, 90 degree arc, 16 max targets x2 (two lions) <--- Extremely unreliable due to pet AI.
Freezing Roar- Cone, 50 foot radius, 30 degree arc, 16 max targets. <--- Bad metrics
Ferocious Growl- AoE, 15 foot radius, 6 max targets x2 (two lions) 3 mag stun for 10 seconds at level 32 <--- You're grasping at straws.
Begone.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Reppu did the buff that the Beast Mastery set just got help in any way?
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Quote:
Eh, looks like mostly bug fixes now that I look at it.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
What buff?
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Beast Mastery
The Vicious Bite animation should now loop properly.
The reaction animation to claw swipe has been shortened.
Added flying animation for the Lion pet.
Wolf tails should no longer clip into their back when in combat ready stance.
The Dire Wolf should no longer change between low and high res models close to player character
Dire Wolf eye glows from "Tame Beasts" power is now customizable
Added lioness's wild charge animation
Call Ravens should now have more appropriate combat text.
Beast Mastery now appears in the correct placement in primary power set list.
Howler Wolf, Alpha Howler Wolf and Dire Wolf's Maiming Bite power now correctly generates Pack Mentality.
Call Hawk: This power now deals 5 ticks of damage over a very brief period of time to sync better with the hawk's talon swipes. To compensate for the damage over time, this power now deals slightly more damage. Also fixed a bug that caused this power to deal negative energy damage in PvP.
Summon Wolves: This power now correctly accepts Accurate To Hit Debuff IO sets, Defense Debuff IO sets,
Summon Dire Wolf: This power now correct accepts Accurate Defense Debuff IO sets, Defense Debuff IO sets and Defense Debuff enhancements.
Howler Wolf/Feral Charge: This power now correctly deals smashing damage, its short and long help have been updated to reflect this.
Pets affected by "Tame Beasts" now have glowing eye fx that are scaled as intended.
Attack, Follow, and Heel toggles should now be suppressed while travel powers such as Flying Carpet are active.
Dire Wolf now plays unique vocalization on summon
Effects that play on animals will now map to the front left paw instead of playing on the hips.
Macros created from dragging an advanced command from the pet UI to the tray will now function properly with pets with multiple names.
All Beast Mastery pets now play sounds when executing Wild Charge power
Call Swarm and Call Hawk should no longer display a brief debuff icon on the caster.
Summon Wolves: This power now accepts To Hit Debuff sets.
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Quote:
The AI is notoriously bad at lining up cones, and for cones this narrow, even a player would be hard-pressed to hit more than three or four targets at a time.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
You say they completely lack AoE over and over and over and it is simply not true. It IS true that they don't have much AoE, but...
Freezing Roar- Cone, 50 foot radius, 30 degree arc, 16 max targets. Chilling Howl- Cone, 80 foot radius, 20 degree arc, 3 max target |
Quote:
| Claw Swipe- Cone, 7 foot radius, 90 degree arc, 16 max targets x2 (two lions) |
Quote:
| Terrible Howl- AoE, 15 foot radius, 16 max targets |
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To answer you anyway: "No".
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Eh, looks like mostly bug fixes now that I look at it.
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I didn't claim that the sheet "proves" anything...
Let's see. Most of my motivation for messing with it was trying to see the theoretical "attack chain disparity", apologies for not making that clear. The damage stuff was just kind of sidebar. I don't have the time or the energy to figure out all the debuff stuff (I also didn't bother doing the other 2 demonling types, I left "brawl" out of some of the ranged damage calculations - for the most part we don't want the ranged guys charging in to brawl anyway...) So maybe those #s are more interesting:
% of "optimal" attack chain spent doing nothing*
Code:
*Assuming both pet and target are locked in place (hence, 'optimal' - in reality both will probably be moving a bit, interrupting attack chains and perhaps occupying gaps that might otherwise be annoying with movement).--Beast-- Wolves: 21% Lions:20% Dire:13% --Bots-- Drones: 11% Prot:36% Assault: 7% --Demons-- Fire t1: 12% Ember:53% Garg:14% Prince: 12% --Merc-- Soldiers:10% Spec Ops:5% Comm:8% --Nec-- Zom: 39% Grave:14% --Ninja-- 0% --Thug-- Thug: 37% Arsonist:52% Enf:4% Bruis:4%
And yes, I took lots of shortcuts (mostly because I don't have a lot of time for this stuff ). For starters, I left off nondamaging attacks, since I'm going for something like an optimal attack chain.
Oh - and if the numbers on tomax are right, Arsonist is about at 14.6, assuming every single tick of the patch hits.
The main problems I have with the set so far are with the lions' buffs.
1) They don't stack with other casters' lions (I'm only level 22x3 on live at the moment, so I'm not even sure if they stack with the other lion from the same caster). To me, that's incredibly obnoxious given that bots, demons and thugs all stack across MMs.
2) 25% uptime seems really odd given the other 3 sets mention have 100% uptime and #s that are as good or better (IIRC).
I'm not PLing these guys, so it will be a while before I can compare them to my high end MMs but, like I said, 1-22, they are pretty middle-of-the-road/OK.
Ninja/'s damage is balanced by their fragility... but demons kind of have everything, I'd like to see them take a hit. Maybe lose the stacking -res?
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Nerfing a set so another feels better about itself is the wrong way to go about it. It if you nerf demons, then what? Nerf Thugs. Nerf Robotics.
Hell, let's branch ATs. Nerf Phantom Army while we're at it!
No.
Quote:
No.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Nerfing a set so another feels better about itself is the wrong way to go about it. It if you nerf demons, then what? Nerf Thugs. Nerf Robotics.
Hell, let's branch ATs. Nerf Phantom Army while we're at it! No. |
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Quote:
Thank you for agreeing! Phew, glad to see someone is able to understand why decisions are bad.
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Originally Posted by Lobster
No.
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Freezing Roar? bad Metrics? What the hell are you even talking about?
Yes, I said specifically that they were cones and how small they were, I was hiding nothing. And I also specifically said that Ferocious Growl was non-damaging, no need to point that out again. You said the set had no AoE- I proved you wrong. With numbers, I heard you like those.
And yes- Bots, Demons, Thugs. All of those should be nerfed.
Quote:
No.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Thank you for agreeing! Phew, glad to see someone is able to understand why decisions are bad.
|
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Quote:
Nerf Ninjas too because they do too much damage!|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Freezing Roar? bad Metrics? What the hell are you even talking about?
Yes, I said specifically that they were cones and how small they were, I was hiding nothing. And I also specifically said that Ferocious Growl was non-damaging, no need to point that out again. You said the set had no AoE- I proved you wrong. With numbers, I heard you like those. And yes- Bots, Demons, Thugs. All of those should be nerfed. |
And bad metrics means it's a bad spherical cone. If you don't understand what that means, it basically means it's true range is garbage. But you could tell with a 50 by 30 cones with Pet AI.
Yes, lets nerf ninjas, the set that you claim to be underpowered, which I still find hard to believe.
No. Necro seems to be a good point for a Mastermind set.
Besides, in my opinion the vast majority of the game needs to be hit with an enormous nerf hammer.
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I don't really agree with Necromancy being the baseline because MM's take so many losses to their support nature, that having 'average' pets is detrimental. Why take an MM over a Controller at that point? Controllers win fights more so than MMs do. Defenders have beyond superior support numbers. Corruptors can deal more damage than the lackluster primaries.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Yes, lets nerf ninjas, the set that you claim to be underpowered, which I still find hard to believe.
No. Necro seems to be a good point for a Mastermind set. Besides, in my opinion the vast majority of the game needs to be hit with an enormous nerf hammer. |
The pets NEED to be powerful because the AT is focused around them. When you take away the viability of the sets, you have a gimped Corruptor/Defender/Controller.
Even I feel Necromancy could do a bit more (the lich could deal a bit more damage in it's powers, just a bit). Ninjas needs BM levels of BASE survivability. Mercenaries need their ST attacks reworked.
Thugs/Demons/Bots wouldn't be the Trio of Godlike if Ninjas got that change and Necros did a LITTLE more AoE damage. Oh, and if BM actually did damage.
Now, if you were going to nerf EVERYTHING, where would you begin?
Alright, an actual well thought post with no insulting words, something I can work with.
Yes, Controllers get pets. No, they are no where near what MM pets are. You cannot direct a controller pet, you cannot use Bodyguard. What Masterminds offer is not simply more powerful pets, or even more numerous pets, but more controllable pets. Pets that you can actually command, albeit not perfectly. I would LOVE to see a controller try to be a Mastermind. As for Corruptor and Defender, they hardly factor in. A petless MM, sure, would be on the levels of a gimped Corr/Def, but MM is a completely separate thing to either. It is rather like saying MMs are gimped Brutes because they both do damage.
If I were going to nerf the vast majority (not everything) I would do it all at once, with the release of a new Issue. Anything else would be absurd, you'd wind up with a 'balance' even more wonky than it already is.
Though, I must admit, this game is more balanced than many I've seen.
Quote:
Shock and awe, I tend to do those more often than not!|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Alright, an actual well thought post with no insulting words, something I can work with.
Yes, Controllers get pets. No, they are no where near what MM pets are. You cannot direct a controller pet, you cannot use Bodyguard. What Masterminds offer is not simply more powerful pets, or even more numerous pets, but more controllable pets. Pets that you can actually command, albeit not perfectly. I would LOVE to see a controller try to be a Mastermind. As for Corruptor and Defender, they hardly factor in. A petless MM, sure, would be on the levels of a gimped Corr/Def, but MM is a completely separate thing to either. It is rather like saying MMs are gimped Brutes because they both do damage. If I were going to nerf the vast majority (not everything) I would do it all at once, with the release of a new Issue. Anything else would be absurd, you'd wind up with a 'balance' even more wonky than it already is. Though, I must admit, this game is more balanced than many I've seen. |
The global nerf thing was done before, and people rioted. Admittedly it was for the best, but not the topic right now.
Moving on, first and foremost; MM's are Support ATs. Much like Controllers, Corruptors, and Defenders fall into this category. Even if they aren't PRIMARILY support, they are Support ATs.
Now, I won't argue the 'controlling your pets' aspect because that isn't that big of a perk these days, I'm sorry to say. Yes, the added level control is good but in the end, every AT's pets are there to back you up, and the uncontrollable pets do it Well Enough.
... Ignoring the recent destruction of the pet AI.
You also confirmed my own opinion, however; MMs are defined by their pets. The baseline of power, arguably, SHOULD be where Demons/Thugs/Bots fall. MMs are defined by their primary. And honestly, these three sets are not overpowered. MMs can do some pretty silly stuff solo, but other ATs and combinations do it BETTER.
There's no reason not to give BM a few extra attacks per pet, give Necro a bit more AoE damage, give Mercs better attacks IN GENERAL, and give Ninjas better survivability.
Demons MAY be the only overpowered one of the bunch, BUT;
Robotics single target relies purely on it's -1000% Regen, which is good in many cases but not so much in others.
Thugs NEED to keep the Arsonist in check and the Bruiser alive. With out them, it loses a LOT of it's omph.
Demons are stupid.
Yes, if you aren't going the global nerf route, and instead the global buff route, those are all great suggestions.
I am curious, though... What can solo Giant Monsters better than MMs?
And yes, they are of course defined by their pets. Controllers are not. Mastermind is the pet class, pure and simple. The support set is given grudgingly if anything- The powers have higher end cost, lower effect. If the support numbers were on the level of other ATs MMs would jump from Over Powered to Game Breakers
Quote:
Illusion Controllers times infinity.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Yes, if you aren't going the global nerf route, and instead the global buff route, those are all great suggestions.
I am curious, though... What can solo Giant Monsters better than MMs? And yes, they are of course defined by their pets. Controllers are not. Mastermind is the pet class, pure and simple. The support set is given grudgingly if anything- The powers have higher end cost, lower effect. If the support numbers were on the level of other ATs MMs would jump from Over Powered to Game Breakers |
Defenders with the proper primary.
Corruptors with the proper secondary
Crabterminds, period.
Soloing GMs is also not something I like to discuss because it's silly, but those above ATs can generally do it faster.
Keep in mind MMs can only do it with the proper secondary as well, generally speaking that secondary is almost always Traps, followed by Poison.
The above support ATs aren't as limited.
Ok, admittedly those CAN do it, but asside from the Crabterminds I have trouble believing they could do it faster.
Illusion can do it easier no doubt, but much of their damage is Illusionary. In a long fight with a GM, that means you are sacrificing a good 50% of your damage.
A Defender has to same trouble- yes, they can survive with the proper secondary, but I highly doubt they can work up a ST DPS to match MMs.
Corruptor, same thing to a lesser degree. Yes, after half health your damage basically doubles, but I still fail to believe it out damaging a raging MM.
ANd as for Traps and Poison being the only viable ones... I've solo'd Adamastor, Babbage, Paladin, Ghost of Scrapyard, Jack and Eochai (both separately and simultaneously), Kraken, some Monsters on Monster Island, a Rikti Pylon, Deathsurge, and Caleb on my Ninja/Time MM, all quite easily (except Jack, that fear is terrible). I've also done it on a Demon/Thermal MM with Ghost of Scrapyard, and Dark Miasma seems like it would have little trouble. Sonic and FF could do it too, with a Primary that has properly high damage or -regen.
/Storm is the only one I see being almost hopeless trying to solo a GM on, due to the vast majority of its mitigation being rendered useless.
Quote:
Spectral damage is a non-issue at SO levels and is flatly no longer acknowledged at IO levels.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Ok, admittedly those CAN do it, but asside from the Crabterminds I have trouble believing they could do it faster.
Illusion can do it easier no doubt, but much of their damage is Illusionary. In a long fight with a GM, that means you are sacrificing a good 50% of your damage. A Defender has to same trouble- yes, they can survive with the proper secondary, but I highly doubt they can work up a ST DPS to match MMs. Corruptor, same thing to a lesser degree. Yes, after half health your damage basically doubles, but I still fail to believe it out damaging a raging MM. ANd as for Traps and Poison being the only viable ones... I've solo'd Adamastor, Babbage, Paladin, Ghost of Scrapyard, Jack and Eochai (both separately and simultaneously), Kraken, some Monsters on Monster Island, a Rikti Pylon, Deathsurge, and Caleb on my Ninja/Time MM, all quite easily (except Jack, that fear is terrible). I've also done it on a Demon/Thermal MM with Ghost of Scrapyard, and Dark Miasma seems like it would have little trouble. Sonic and FF could do it too, with a Primary that has properly high damage or -regen. /Storm is the only one I see being almost hopeless trying to solo a GM on, due to the vast majority of its mitigation being rendered useless. |
As for your claims, I have one suggestion; Go make a GM Speed Kill thread, if you think it's some sort of (bad) baseline of performance. Because all that matters when killing a GM is your -Regen.
Illu/Cold and Illu/Rad has immense -Regen, Immense Debuffs, and then a ton of damage flying out from 5+ Pets.
Crabterminds just have sheer numbers.
You underestimate Defender damage with Patron Pets. But I do believe certain combos have some really amusing outcomes.
Corruptors WILL win that race at the 50% point if they're Fire. Or Ice. Super Scourge nom.
Anyway, done with the comparisons. You are forgetting one major fact; a lot of Giant Monster AoEs can one shot your pets.
As for Time Manipulation, it's lack of substantial -Regen is to note it will be slowed down severely for it. But, anyway, I'm done discussing this because.. it's stupid. GM soloing is stupid. MMs can do it really well but "Who cares"? That's not a show of their ability to solo well, honestly. That's just them having a Support set >_> Which is all you need to solo (Or are a Crabstermind).
Can you argue that it's the PETS that make it possible, not the Support Set? Because you can't because Defenders and Controllers were doing it way before MMs (And Corruptors).
MMs may outspeed most of those AT combinations, but a Fire Corruptor, an Illu/Anything Controller, and a Crabstermind win the 'race' that doesn't exist.
Nobody cares!
Now, see, the reason I brought this up is because you brought up that MMs couldn't do it as well as some other stuff, and I can't remember why that was brought up.
And yes, it is a showing of ability, of a very certain ability. It is not a showing of a set's viability, granted, but of a specific player's ability. To go up against a GM solo is not stupid, it is simply fun. To fling yourself at the best the game has to offer, to be met with something that lasts more than twenty seconds, that is fun.
And with /Time, what it lacks in -regen it makes up for with pet survivability. Even with Ninjas I rarely lose any. The lucky shot will take one out, but they are all soft capped to all positions.
And, no, it is not the pets that make it possible, it is the pets that make it easy. Ok, so perhaps they aren't the fastest... and I still have trouble believe that a Defender or Corruptor can out-damage Ninjas in single target DPS, but it is simply easiest to do on an MM. As a Defender, Corruptor, or Controller there is always that chance of simply being oneshotted. With an MM you have something like 5000 health.
And obviously the statement that 'nobody cares' is inherently false if you are arguing with someone who does, in fact, care.
In light of the conversation about shoddy beast damage and attack chain gaps, I decided to muck around with "optimal" pet attack chains (optimal in the sense that there's some sense in them: favor heavy damage->aoe->range->whatever - I'm not sure how the game AI decides and I don't have much time for testing that these days).
.
I've only put in the numbers for beast,ninja,nec & thugs so far. If you're curious, or want to complain about my attack chains or methodology (you can probably do better), the spreadsheet is here.
#s:
Ninja:
*Genin: 23.4
*Jonin: 21.4
*Oni: 22.4
Beast:
*Non-Alpha howler: 16.2
*Lion: 19.9
*Dire: 17.6
Nec:
*Zombie: 13.2
*Grave Knight: 18.9
Thugs:
*Non-arsonist thug: 11.7
*Enforcer: 11.4
*Brute: ~19 (didn't do this one out far enough to find a loop)
Mercs:
*Soldiers: 8.2
*Spec-Ops: 10.4
*Commando: 15
Bots:
*Drones: 7.6
*Protector: 9.4
*Assault: 8.2 + burn patches
Demons:
*Fire Demonling: 18.1
*Ember Demon: 10.6
*HF Gargoyle: 21.8 + aura (3.75 per tick)
*Demon Prince: 21.4
This is all assuming an immobilized single target, not counting buffs, using base dmg, not factoring pet -levels in, oni being bad at prioritizing, etc. Buuuuuuut I still think it's useful for comparison - even if only of dev intent. Anyway...
So we've got beast in between nec & ninja for damage, but theoretically above either for durability (but necs have debuffs to offset this), which seems like a fair goal. (Thugs are ranged, I just put them in here for comparison, but I will get to adding merc, demon & bots eventually).
Also worth noting is that beast seems to have less gaps than nec, it's just those crazy ninja with no gaps...
My beast mms are 18 now and I'm not noticing any damage issues in that level range, at least as compared to other 3 box teams I've done
Maybe if I have some time later I'll try and factor in their various buffs & enhancements.
[Edit:
I added in the other sets, because I guess I have a spreadsheet problem. <.<.
So yeah. Demons. They have damage that is almost as good as ninja +more aoe + heals + -resist +shields + variable damage types.... totally not a recipe for strength? I have several demon mms, and I wouldn't mind seeing them take a hit to bring them closer in line with the other sets.
]
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