Thoughts on beasts & pet attack chains in general
By
Carnifax_NA,
Posted on: 2012-03-23 10:00 in Masterminds
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You wrote a great guide on crabbing, you should quit while your reputation is intact. Nerf-saying against other powersets is also pariah material.
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Originally Posted by Lobster
I was referring to your forum persona/act. I keep forgetting I have to make everything extremely clear, lest you go off on a tangent.
Are you playing a beast mm currently (I thought you said you were going to play one in beta, but I don't remember if you did?). I am, and I'm not seeing any particular attack chain gap issues, even without the 32 buff. Sure, I see a gap once in a while, but generally they and/or the targets are moving once in a while as well, so I barely notice... |
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Pariah material? Does that mean we have to live in sewers and hang around with guys with TVs on their heads (when are they upgrading to flatscreens by the way devs).|
Originally Posted by icemanstryketh
You wrote a great guide on crabbing, you should quit while your reputation is intact. Nerf-saying against other powersets is also pariah material.
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Farsight does probably need to be brought into line with other AOE Defense to All buffs like Fade and Mindlink. As is it's an outlier in how it interacts with Power Boost and Time doesn't need it (unlike poor Forcefield), it's still an excellent set with a wide variety of abilites (more so than nearly any other set)
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Originally Posted by icemanstryketh
You wrote a great guide on crabbing, you should quit while your reputation is intact. Nerf-saying against other powersets is also pariah material.
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Are you referring to the bit where I said that I wouldn't mind if demons took a hit? From the section you quoted it's not really clear what you are responding to.
*IF* that is what you are referring to, I'd say it's a far cry from "nerf-saying" (which I am interpreting to mean something like "Request/demand-ing that another set be nerfed). I simply said that it wouldn't bother me if it were. To elaborate and clarify: I wouldn't play my demon/ mms any less if they were a little weaker. Is that "nerf-saying"?
That being said, are the forums really so bad these days that folks would "make me a pariah" (How would they even do that?) for voicing a pretty flexible opinion (I don't think that they do...)?
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
I'll say that defensively, Beast is fine, it's the middle ground between Ninjas (who have NO resistance and good defense) and Demons (who have INSANE resistances but meh defense)
Offensively...well, Demons have all the damage types and -Res, and Ninjas have essentially an limitless attack chain. Beast right now feels like Mercs. They burn their attacks against a single target, then wait. Which is bad for a melee Primary. They really should have more uses of attacks, or perhaps better attacks added in so there's none of these multi-second gaps.
They don't have to Ninjas who basically spit attacks in the time it takes me to blink, but compared to the other two melee sets the pauses in Beast are inexcusable, and I like the set.
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Didn't you get your Pariah Starter Kit in the mail?|
Originally Posted by Lobster
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Are you referring to the bit where I said that I wouldn't mind if demons took a hit? From the section you quoted it's not really clear what you are responding to. *IF* that is what you are referring to, I'd say it's a far cry from "nerf-saying" (which I am interpreting to mean something like "Request/demand-ing that another set be nerfed). I simply said that it wouldn't bother me if it were. To elaborate and clarify: I wouldn't play my demon/ mms any less if they were a little weaker. Is that "nerf-saying"? That being said, are the forums really so bad these days that folks would "make me a pariah" (How would they even do that?) for voicing a pretty flexible opinion (I don't think that they do...)? |
The idea that people would decide to snub you for voicing an opinion on something in a forum where the whole idea is to voice opinions on something is pretty ridiculous, isn't it. Luckily I've never seen any sign of it here at all. icemanstryketh is the first person I've ever seen even mention it. Maybe I don't hang around the same circles (or maybe that circle has already made me a pariah and I never noticed)
If anything it's almost always more fun to counter-argue with someone than decide that you're now "snubbing" them in some way online. How would they even know? And why would they even care?
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I debated re-doing my forum avatar with a TV on my head but, you know, that would take time and effort.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Didn't you get your Pariah Starter Kit in the mail?
The idea that people would decide to snub you for voicing an opinion on something in a forum where the whole idea is to voice opinions on something is pretty ridiculous, isn't it. Luckily I've never seen any sign of it here at all. icemanstryketh is the first person I've ever seen even mention it. Maybe I don't hang around the same circles (or maybe that circle has already made me a pariah and I never noticed) If anything it's almost always more fun to counter-argue with someone than decide that you're now "snubbing" them in some way online. How would they even know? And why would they even care? |
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Time is a power-creep set that needs the nerf bat, much like Titan Weapons. At the very LEAST Farsight needs to not work with it and give such ludicrous Defensive levels. It makes Force Fields lose even more appeal.
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Could you clarify why you're OK with nerfing time, but against nerfing demons/etc., especially given this comment:
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Nerfing a set so another feels better about itself is the wrong way to go about it. It if you nerf demons, then what? Nerf Thugs. Nerf Robotics.
Hell, let's branch ATs. Nerf Phantom Army while we're at it! No. |
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
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Time should lose it's Power Boost synergy and it wouldn't make me as annoyed as it does. Right now it can rival Force Field defenses ontop of it's variety of tools. So either buff Force Fields (Not it's defensive numbers, but it's utility powers could Suck Less), or remove Power Boost synergy.|
Originally Posted by Lobster
I debated re-doing my forum avatar with a TV on my head but, you know, that would take time and effort.
I think I missed this. Could you clarify why you're OK with nerfing time, but against nerfing demons/etc., especially given this comment: It seems like we could apply the exact same "power creep" logic to Demons and Thugs. The angle I guess I can see here is that bots may have already set a high standard for MM power. Still, your "nerfing a set so another feels better about itself is the wrong way to go about it" seems to directly conflict with "Time is a power-creep set that needs the nerf bat, much like Titan Weapons" which calls for nerfing on two separate sets. |
Why are Demons fine? Bots, Thugs, and Demons are roughly in the same tier. Necro has always been average, Ninjas lacked survivability, Mercs have the lolspecops, and now Beasts just don't do damage. Demons could probably use a tweak but it's not like MM primaries are known for soloing anything by their own merit; it's their support sets that solo AVs and GMs, not the pets so much. Support sets make those 'challenges' much easier.
Titan Weapons has the best theoretical single target and AOE DPS in the game for it's ATs. That means it's superior to both Martial Arts and... I guess it's Electric Melee? Flatly and beyond superior, because they beat those two at their niche and then beat the opposite at THEIR niche. Titan Weapons was balanced around NOT having Momentum, so when you have Momentum (Which you always do), it BREAKS the hell out of the set.
If I had to say what set NEEDS a nerf, it's Titan Weapons. Other sets I'd LIKE to see scaled down are Time Manipulation (Only due to Power Boost), and Street Justice (Crushing Uppercut needs to deal less BASE damage and have it transfered to Combo Damage, so, in effect, Critical Hits aren't nearly as absurd).
Demons are powerful but they are not remotely Titan Weapons. Demons arguably isn't that far ahead, if at all, of Bots or Thugs. Did it Power Creep Ninjas? Sure, but it's not hard to power creep Underperforming.
So yes, offensively they need work, defensively they are perfectly fine.
And whoever said "it makes StJ look good" made me discount everything they said previously even more. Street Justice is an awesome set.
So it has the least damage but is one of the more survivable.
Single target sets tend not to be well received in a game thats primary focus is killing thousands of mobs per level.
Even if they boosted beasts single target damage.. there is still that problem.
Basically soloing AV's is a very very very small percentage of the population, fast leveling and to some extant farming is a much more popular pass time.
Aoe makes leveling easier in a team or solo... poor aoe is NEVER going to be liked by the playerbase in general.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.