possible mastermind AI solution
By
Beltor,
Posted on: 2012-03-09 12:50 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
So what you're saying is it's the server that makes the Mastermind Pet A.I. stupid? or that perhaps the code for controlling pets is too complicated for the server to handle? Even though I know nothing about programming I am however smart enough to know that you're not suggesting the server is responsible for the buggy A.I.
I refuse to believe that Mastermind code, which is at least 7 years old, is stressing a server that should, in all honesty, be less then half that in age and processing power. What I'm saying is the servers should be running circles around the code that CoH is throwing at it. Oh well, I'm probably wrong *shrug*
- Bow �o �he Reaper of Souls�
- 68 Unique Characters / Fifteen Level 50s & Counting! Damn you alt-itis!!!!!!!
Quote:
No, I think he is saying that the code needs to be optimized to run on the server without using too much resources, especially considering the same code is used by every NPC out there(including every instance full of enemies).|
Originally Posted by Tyranny_NA
So what you're saying is it's the server that makes the Mastermind Pet A.I. stupid? or that perhaps the code for controlling pets is too complicated for the server to handle?
|
It's their shoddy code, but it's also hampered by server load.
This could have been avoided with better design from the start to allow each individual client program control at least the enemies in a private solo instance, rather than the server, but they are unwilling to make a game that way to make cheating more difficult.
It's a valid reason, but inherently problematic and flawed as cheating will always exist, especially the more they hamper the honest normal players with their anti-cheating methods.
Anyway, my idea is relatively simple to implement.
another idea I had recently was to give pets the same "Positioning" power that certain enemies, such as Longbow Eagles and Cabal Witches, use to make them keep their distance, or at least run away.
Maybe they could make that activate every time they activate brawl as a way to cancel brawl and keep them at range.
Quote:
Actually, that is possible.|
Originally Posted by Tyranny_NA
I refuse to believe that Mastermind code, which is at least 7 years old, is stressing a server that should, in all honesty, be less then half that in age and processing power. What I'm saying is the servers should be running circles around the code that CoH is throwing at it. Oh well, I'm probably wrong *shrug*
|
consider that even new "super computers" that we players use to play this game have performance issues still, which get worse with every patch instead of better as they should.
The game is old, and each patch just makes it more unstable.
Of course, it can and will perform worse on newer hardware and operating systems.
Not all games suffer that, but poorly made games do for sure. This game was made by Cryptic who boasted "making a game in under a year". This game was poorly made, period.
As far as the Dev's are concerned, Pet ai is WAI...
Therefor spending time and mindpower coming up with solutions for something they don't think is broken is kinda fruitless.
The more and more pet ai threads I'm seeing, and I expect an increase now with BM out, the more and more vocal I'm going to get on asking the Dev's to either admit that pet ai is WAI with the wonkiness being an intended handicap, or once and for all admit that it's 'bugged'.
Until then though, I don't see the point in discussing mechanics that are working properly. That's just me though.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Quote:
Incorrect.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
As far as the Dev's are concerned, Pet ai is WAI...
|
They know it is broken. They even know it is tied to the AI of every NPC(such as the sticky thread "Mob AI: RUN AWAY...").
They just have trouble solving it. They still try, as evident by Jack Frost being fixed recently.
I think they just need new perspectives and ideas, especially considering they're likely "stuck in their ways" and no longer as creative as another person who hasn't been stuck working on the same game for years after being trained a certain way in college would be.
If you ever find yourself saying "that would never work" as an early response to an idea, then you're "stuck in your ways" and can't see what may be a simple solution.
You need to consider the options and ideas before discounting them.
Except we have, numerous times...
I'm all for opening discussions and getting the ball rolling.
I'm all for rehasing ideas and getting a workable solution.
I'm not eager to have a backlash from players if this builds momentum only to have nothing come of it.
Taking the overall picture into account;
MM's are released and pet ai is bugged from the start. This is acknowledged.
They try and try but are unable to properly fix the ai without messing up to many other areas, they don't stop trying, but communicate that it's now on the backburner.
Fast forward literal years with nothing being done to address the issue, while in the meantime IO's are released and subsequently balanced around said 'bug'.
They then decide to create Demons. They do so only to discover in testing that the ever present 'stick at range' bug really breaks their new shiny set. So they go about fixing it finally, after much rangling they are able to correct the ai.
However, this now creates a brand spanking new problem...
In the interim, MM's were balanced around the wonky ai. Upon testing the new build, with bug free pet ai, they were mortified to discover MM's to be way Overpowered with that level of control.
So they did the easiest thing they could, rather than reinstate the old bug, and invalidate a major selling point for GR, they created a new 'ai oddity' that would work with Demons but also simulate the previous one MM's had been balanced around.
Since that point, since Demons went live and we all started asking about it the ai, not one Dev has mentioned it.
I simply can't accept that it is still 'bugged' but is now rather a 'bug' that was turned into an intended handicap, therefor getting everyone worked up over a possible fix only serves to rile people up over nothing.
Feel free to prove me wrong. That after all is what I'm after, confirmation that the Dev's do still view it as bugged, yet haven't figured out how to solve it. Once they do that I'll be more than willing to discuss changes.
*Shrugs*
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Quote:
Conspiracy theory apologizing for lack of solutions.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
So they did the easiest thing they could, rather than reinstate the old bug, and invalidate a major selling point for GR, they created a new 'ai oddity' that would work with Demons but also simulate the previous one MM's had been balanced around.
|
1) I've heard the theory that "the bug is now intentional because masterminds would be overpowered if not for the bug", but you know what?
THEY'RE OVERPOWERED NOW! If they wanted them to "not be overpowered" then they obviously wouldn't have kept it "as it is now".
Maybe you just haven't noticed that any mastermind can easily increase the difficulty while many other archetypes want an even lower difficulty than the lowest one we have.
A mastermind on SOs routinely solos huge groups, EBs, AVs and sometimes even GMs.
2) The AI keeps being broken because this game is a MESS.
They could easily fix the AI if they didn't have to work with the "push it out quick" crap that Cryptic Studios is famous for.
The bugs in the code that arise whenever another fix goes in are because "this tire already has too many patches from previously going flat". It was never made to be as flexible a system as we have right now. Power customization was never intended to ever be allowed int he first place, as just one example.
I'm not going to devote anymore time to "they broke it on purpose" conspiracy theories that ignore the fact that "angry customers, because of bugs, don't stick around".
Okay...
You admit that MM's are overpowered as they currently are, yet refuse to see how much more OP they'd be with 100% control?
Call it a conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better, personally I call it following logic.
These are the facts;
A.) They know how to and can easily fix pet ai, yet don't. (As stated by you, I'm not sure it's easy.)
B.) They stopped acknowledging it as being 'bugged' when they 'rebalanced the ai with demons'.
C.) They continue to acknowledge and fix ai issues for everything except MM's.
That can only led me to one conclusion. MM Pets are WAI.
They aren't ignoring the fact that "Angry customers, because of bugs, don't stick around." That is the exact reason why they stopped calling it a bug. It no longer is bugged, it is now intended.
I'm just wanting confirmation that something is still considered bugged before going through all the issues yet again.
Feel free to view that however you want, feel free to completely ignore it, doesn't matter to me, I'm just wanting to be 100% up to date here.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Quote:
1) Says who?|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
You admit that MM's are overpowered as they currently are, yet refuse to see how much more OP they'd be with 100% control?
|
The only people who have said this are other players with no more information than me, who just want to think of "this conspiracy theory is the reason they won't fix it and keep making a different bug".
2) We used to have better control. It didn't make them MORE overpowered.
Believe me, I played masterminds a lot over the years. They definitely used to not have any trouble behaving as they were supposed to, aside from the stupid Bruiser and other "melee only" pets. They broke the AI with the first fix they did to that, and they have been playing catch-up ever since to other problems with the AI.
3) Ok, they do know how to fix the AI. Want to know how? Make a new game.
There! That's the solution.
4) No, they don't know how to easily fix the AI, in this game, because they don't think like me.
I'm not formally educated in game programming. I haven't been working with their game for 8 years.
I don't ever say "that would never work" without first considering "how it could work".
You went from "they haven't fixed it" to the conclusion "they intentionally broke it", skipping right over "maybe they just don't have a good solution, yet".
You jumped right off "Conclusion Cliff", you Lemming.
I'm done with your conspiracy theory that "the developers are out to get us".
THEY WANT OUR MONEY! They don't get that by breaking things; they get our money by making things better.
Guess what?
Masterminds are a "paid for" archetype. They want us to play them because in order to do so we have to pay.
Demon Summoning and Beast Mastery are paid for sets beyond the archetype even. They want us to pay for them too.
Obviously, they want us to like them. They want us to be happy with them. They want them to work well so that we will want them and pay for them.
MONEY MONEY MONEY, GIMME GIMME GIMME!
That is what they want, so it completely disproves your conspiracy theory.
They're just ignorant of ideas or inept or incompetent, not evil.
Quote:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=285357|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
I'm just wanting confirmation that something is still considered bugged before going through all the issues yet again.
|
Issue 22: Death Incarnate - March 6, 2012
Quote:
Ice Control
|
It confirms that pet AI is not perfect yet. They are fixing it when they can.
Quote:
Having no knowledge of both the field and the specific subject is not a strength. Especially in computer programming, where the way the system actually works is deliberately concealed from the user as much as possible. This is exactly the point of the Standard Code Rant. Maybe your fix works, I don't know, but simple historical observation says that's unlikely. Claiming that your idea is a good idea because you know far less than the people who literally do this for a living is... kinda silly, don't you think?
|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I'm not formally educated in game programming. I haven't been working with their game for 8 years.
|
Why are you getting so worked up? I'm calmly stating my opinion on this matter, no need to call me a lemming. 
But for the record:
Quote:
You did, one post above my last one...|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
1) Says who?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
2) We used to have better control. It didn't make them MORE overpowered.
Believe me, I played masterminds a lot over the years. They definitely used to not have any trouble behaving as they were supposed to, aside from the stupid Bruiser and other "melee only" pets. They broke the AI with the first fix they did to that, and they have been playing catch-up ever since to other problems with the AI. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
4) No, they don't know how to easily fix the AI, in this game, because they don't think like me.
I'm not formally educated in game programming. I haven't been working with their game for 8 years. I don't ever say "that would never work" without first considering "how it could work". |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
You went from "they haven't fixed it" to the conclusion "they intentionally broke it", skipping right over "maybe they just don't have a good solution, yet".
You jumped right off "Conclusion Cliff", you Lemming. |
In closing, as I wasn't looking to get into petty bickering, you prove my point that you are too worked up and thus aren't actually reading my posts by posting the patch notes and highlighting the change to Jack Frost. If you re-read my previous posts you will see that I acknowledge the Dev's still indentify and fix 'any and all' Pet ai issues, except MMs post GR.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Quote:
I did not say "no knowledge".|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Having no knowledge of both the field and the specific subject is not a strength.
|
I said "not formally educated".
Meaning:
I have knowledge of basic programming, the functions that make up every program.
I also know how logic works, like "if A=B and A=C then B=C" and "cause and effect".
That is all you need for programming.
They have been taught that, but they were also taught "this is how these people in the past have done these things" and learned "this is how we have done functions in City of Heroes before".
(Essentially, they were taught to "copy-paste". Not intentionally, but peopel take the quick path if they can, which is "copy-paste".)
They have lost creativity because their education and work has been so structured and based on "this is how it is, now work with it" instead of actually creatively changing how it works at the core.
It's like when you do a job for 20 years and suddenly have to find a new job. You got really good at your specific job, but now you have to learn a new job, even if it is similar it is still quite different.
Programming is that way. If everything was simple and already had a known solution that came before then there wouldn't be "new programs" and "new functions" and every game would be the same forever.
It's called stagnation.
Stagnant water is so because it just sits there and doesn't move. It goes bad simply because it isn't changing.
People get the same way. If you worry too much about "this is the only way to do this" then you lose the ability to adapt to new situations or ideas.
People are slow to change, perhaps even requiring new people who think differently. It's called evolution(which does not just apply to genetics but also cultures and ideas and even something as simple as taste).
I'm saying that the developers need new ideas because they are stuck "inside the box". They need "out of the box" ideas.
Quote:
1) Sorry I got worked up. It was a combination of factors, partly from other posts elsewhere and my real life at the moment I was posting.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Why are you getting so worked up? I'm calmly stating my opinion on this matter, no need to call me a lemming.
But for the record: You did, one post above my last one... No, we didn't. MM's have always had some form of pet ai weirdness. Since day 1. For some sets the old bug was preferred over the new one. The newest incarnation of it made my Bots/Storm nigh unplayable but improved my Necro/Dark. But it was never 'more control'. |
2) I actually asked "who said they intentionally made a bug, intentionally broke things?" because they would never admit to such a thing.
You were clearly assuming something, likely following the resident forum "conspiracy theorists" that think "every bug is the developers intentionally angering us".
They don't intentionally anger us. They don't even intentionally create bugs.
They're just human and imperfect like all of us. They can't get it right every time.
Hell, they may not have even made any mistakes and still have bugs because the people that originally made the game, an entirely different team, were the ones who made the mistakes that made the current bugs manifest when changes were made to a system that "would only work one way".
3) Yes, MMs have always had odd AI for pets, but it was much less odd at first. It started with only a few bad bugs isolated to specific pets like the Thugs Bruiser, not every ranged pet forsaking range in order to use their disabled brawl attack(essentially, any pet that runs into melee and supposedly doesn't have a melee attack, not even brawl).
They fixed the specific pet bugs and things were nto bad for quite a while. Demon Summoning had a lot of bugs though, so they changed all the AI, which was working relatively well, to make one set(which cost extra since it was with Going Rogue, so they did this for more money) work better than it did, instead of changign that one set to conform to the AI.
That is what broke it.
Now, they need to figure out a way to fix the AI without undoing the fixes they already made that caused the bugs we have now. That is where it gets difficult.
So no, they did not intentionally put in a bug as a nerf to masterminds. They can nerf them easily by reducing the power of the pets and the buffs for masterminds, much easier than putting in "functional yet broken" AI.
And no, mastermind pets would not be overpowered with better control. They would be more difficult to manage because it would enable and require more complex controls.
Essentially, we would go from only needing 2 functions, "petcom_all defensive follow" and "petcom_all attack"(as the only 2 functions I find I need as a mastermind), to needing to control each pet separately and with much more complex functions such as specifically telling them which attack they should use(akin to the system of heroes in Guild Wars).
Better control is not always a blessing. Better control is just as often a curse.
Just look at the mouse and keyboard. They provide immense control, but they aren't very ergonomic, and everybody I know can see all the typos I make as I get more accustomed to and experienced with using a keyboard.
No worries, when we're passionate about something, that passion has a way of tilting our responses. Passion is rarely a bad thing though.
I was very eager to get the changes reverted when GR went live, expecting a fix any day for the first few weeks, so I could finally get back to my favorite at the time Bots/Storm. Alas the months turned into years and... Eventually I had to just move on and go forward with the notion that it won't be fixed because they don't want to. I'll be pleased as punch to have ZWill or Synapse come post that it's still in the pipeline though.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Quote:
Oh, they want to fix it. It's just hard.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
I was very eager to get the changes reverted when GR went live, expecting a fix any day for the first few weeks, so I could finally get back to my favorite at the time Bots/Storm. Alas the months turned into years and... Eventually I had to just move on and go forward with the notion that it won't be fixed because they don't want to. I'll be pleased as punch to have ZWill or Synapse come post that it's still in the pipeline though.
|
That is why I posted my idea for a solution.
1) Maybe my ideas were never heard before.
2) Maybe they are simple enough to be done.
3) Maybe they will work.
4) Maybe they just needed a new idea, possibly because they ran out of ideas or don't have the time to give it enough thought with all the other work they must do.
You don't get anywhere without trying. If we all "waited for the world to get better" then we "would all be miserable forever" because nobody would make it happen.
Another idea:
I find that stealth suppression works rather well at disabling the stealth function of a power.
If you do something to suppress stealth and THEN activate another stealth power, that new stealth power doesn't immediately hide you.
Perhaps a similar thing can be done with brawl for pets that should stay at range.
They could add some sort of "brawl suppression" function to the ranged attacks so that they suppress brawl when they are recharged so that they still use brawl when they have nothing else to use but will stop as soon as a better power is ready.
You could just make such a function part of the pet itself in one that is not meant to use brawl ever, such as Phantasm or Singularity or Protector Drones or the Arsonist pet.
This idea is more difficult and far-fetched, in my opinion, than my previous ideas, but maybe the developers will find this idea easier to implement and/or better.
This really should be in the Suggestions section, other than explaining the problem you see.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
this has probably already been suggested, but why not just make the brawl for ranged pets a ranged power? Make it slightly unique for each pet by copying a basic attack animation and increase the "brawl" range to a decent medium distance. SObasically change a weak melee attack into a weak ranged attack.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
That wouldn't really do anything though, other than make them pause at range to fire it off instead of closing straight to melee.
For the range only pets, it would work to keep them out of melee, but then again the dev's want you to have to manage them so...
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Everyone can come up with smart AI. The problem is coming up with smart AI that's also very CPU efficient. I know that in a game I once worked on (a decade ago), that the server spent most of it's time handling the mobs. It's usually very optimized code, and thus often hard to understand and change.