just go play your Spines and have fun like you have always had.. who cares if the new doodad has a lil more shine...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Spines still has a lot of secondary effects that TW doesn't. Speed/recharge debuff, toxic DoT, minor immobilize.
Edit: and a toggle!
As much as I like TW, I think Spines is still a fun set to play.
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Spines is definitely still a fun set to play, but when the addition of a new powerset takes away just about the only thing it had as an advantage, and then does more, that's an issue.
A spines scrapper is my only level 50 scrapper. I've got a lot of love for it, but I don't think it's unreasonable to point out if a new set's been added that beats it in every way or to ask if that observation is unreasonable.
I get that it's fun, but I'm worried that Titan weapons is Spines+, and if that's the case, Spines should get a buff.
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And I have to ask, if they took the slow from all the powers and gave Impale a -def and -resist debuff at the same level as rend armor, would that be neutral or a buff in your opinion?|
Originally Posted by Enamel_32
Spines still has a lot of secondary effects that TW doesn't. Speed/recharge debuff, toxic DoT, minor immobilize.
Edit: and a toggle! |
And even with the Toxic DoT, the Titan Weapon's AoE damage is comprable with better ST damage to boot.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Honestly, this is what bothers me about Broadsword the most right now.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
I get that it's fun, but I'm worried that Titan weapons is Spines+, and if that's the case, Spines should get a buff.
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I've been compiling information to PM to Synapse regarding the possibility of Spines getting a buff. |
Originally Posted by William_Valence
I get that it's fun, but I'm worried that Titan weapons is Spines+, and if that's the case, Spines should get a buff. |
However, I don't believe the existence of Titan Weapons is sufficient reason or a buff in and of itself.
If Titan Weapons were a free set and it was better at Spines at AoE I could see a case being made for it. But it's a set you have to pay extra to acquire, so it being better than a free set is more fair.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
If spines gets a buff, should claws get a buff since they are cousins? If we buff claws and spines should we buff broadsword? But broadsword and katana are twins, what about katana? But if we buffed those, we have to buff War Mace and Battle Axe...they'd be left out. Since we're buffing weapon sets, what about melee sets? Like Dark and Energy and Fiery melee...?
Don't sweat it, spines is still good, and has a damage aura...nothing to get all huffed up about...and Spines actually has RANGED attacks...TW does not...I know I have a TW/EA brute coming up right now, and while the "reach" is better than many...claws and spines actually can go after flying critters, which is basically not at all possible through TW. So it has more AoE or does slightly more damage or has a different secondary effect...? Spines has been a good serviceable set for melee damage dealers for a long time...it's still fine as it is...not as popular as it once was...but that's just a FOTM thing anyway...look at any number of sets that were FOTM at some point and are not any more...they're all still good, they're just not the freshest, hottest, coolest, newest thing anymore...
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Claws just got a buff not that long ago. |
Originally Posted by planet_J
If spines gets a buff, should claws get a buff since they are cousins?
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| If we buff claws and spines should we buff broadsword? But broadsword and katana are twins, what about katana? But if we buffed those, we have to buff War Mace and Battle Axe...they'd be left out. Since we're buffing weapon sets, what about melee sets? Like Dark and Energy and Fiery melee...? |
Spines actually does need a bit of a buff IMO. But not in the area you might think.
It's not being overshadowed in AoE output by any means, but its single target damage is the worst of any melee set by a WIDE margin. According to Bill Z Bubba's DPS spreadsheet, Spines has a ST attack chain that puts out.....80 DPS. The next powerset up the ladder is Electric Melee at 103 DPS. The next one after that is Broadsword at 121 DPS.
That's more than 40 DPS separating Spines and Broadsword.
My goal isn't to have Spines buffed into a DPS monster like Claws or Fire Melee, it's just to maybe get Spines up to being on par with Electric Melee.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Spines is worse than energy melee? I didn't think that could be possible...
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The numbers listed were for single target DPS ONLY. |
Originally Posted by planet_J
Spines is worse than energy melee? I didn't think that could be possible...
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They did not take AoE ability into account.
Energy Melee was, IIRC, just above middle of the pack for ST DPS.
Spines is among the top performers in AoE damage, but it is the worst in single target by a HUGE gap. For perspective, discounting Spines and Electric Melee, the entire range of DPS numbers was 28 DPS or so from lowest to highest. Electric Melee was just under 20 DPS below the lowest, and Spines was over 20 DPS below Electric.
If it were a race, we'd be waiting several hours after the race to see Spines finally cross the finish line.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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And honestly, that was fine when Spines had the de-facto AoE performance. With Quills, Spine burst (despite the animation time), and the Footstomp level Throw Spines it was about as far ahead in AoE as it was behind in ST damage. Claws was the closest on it's own, but you had to mitigate the various knock effects and manage Follow up and the 8' AoE. Claws had a very small margain for error that could drastically reduce it's AoE performance.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The numbers listed were for single target DPS ONLY.
They did not take AoE ability into account. Energy Melee was, IIRC, just above middle of the pack for ST DPS. Spines is among the top performers in AoE damage, but it is the worst in single target by a HUGE gap. For perspective, discounting Spines and Electric Melee, the entire range of DPS numbers was 28 DPS or so from lowest to highest. Electric Melee was just under 20 DPS below the lowest, and Spines was over 20 DPS below Electric. If it were a race, we'd be waiting several hours after the race to see Spines finally cross the finish line. |
Titan Weapons has that level of AoE, but doesn't require the level of micro-management that claws does. It doesn't have that margain for error that greatly diminishes what it can do should things go wrong.
And I don't believe it's ok to make one set better, just because it's a for pay set. Paying A la carte for a set shouldn't be because it's better, it should be to cover the expense of developing the set with resources that fall outside what's covered in the VIP/Free budget.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
I'd at least like to see Spines get some single target damage love.
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Dark/Shield Build Thread
Yeah, I wouldn't argue against trimming some of the animation times down a bit.
And down the slippery slope we go! Where we'll stop? Nobody gives a **** 
Back when Claws got some love, Castle was a bit adamant against giving Spines any love, especially for either impale or barb swipe. Or maybe both. I forget.
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Castle's gone. The current powers group have different ideas about power balance.
Titan weapons and being able to perma-lightform prove that.
I don't think adjusting Barb Swipe's damage to match its animation when it's at the bottom of the pack on ST damage output is going to break the game any further.
Be well, people of CoH.
I was just throwing that out there. I know Castle's gone now. I would like to see Spines get an animation pass, at the least. Castle told me that personally when I asked (okay, maybe begged might be more accurate) him to consider adjusting Barb Swipe.
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I would love to see Barb Swipe get tweaked to areasonable animation.
If Barb Swipe was given the Barrage treatment and maybe Lunge's animation sped up a bit (I always feel the animation goes 'I stab you!.. Uhm.. Uhm.. Now I'll do.. Something.. This!' with the short wait between animations) I would certainly play my Spines Scrapper more. Currently he's sitting pretty in the mid 30s giving bosses the evil eye.
But as it is, I'd rather they look at sets like Energy Melee, Trick Arrow and Force Fields before Spines. The AoE makes up for the lacking ST and can be a boon in teams, while other sets are falling behind somewhat, or their one trick pony isn't doing it's trick as well as the new llama they've added to the game.
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While I'd like to see the animation times looked at, my one true wish for spines is proliferation >.> 
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Lol energy melee
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Originally Posted by CBeet
If Barb Swipe was given the Barrage treatment and maybe Lunge's animation sped up a bit (I always feel the animation goes 'I stab you!.. Uhm.. Uhm.. Now I'll do.. Something.. This!' with the short wait between animations) I would certainly play my Spines Scrapper more. Currently he's sitting pretty in the mid 30s giving bosses the evil eye.
But as it is, I'd rather they look at sets like Energy Melee, Trick Arrow and Force Fields before Spines. The AoE makes up for the lacking ST and can be a boon in teams, while other sets are falling behind somewhat, or their one trick pony isn't doing it's trick as well as the new llama they've added to the game. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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The problem with this kind of mindset is that if they buff Spines, then other sets will be compared to Spines as a reason to need a buff, and so on, and so on, and so on. Eventually it will go full circle and we'll be back at Spines needing a buff again. Power sets shouldn't be exact replicas of each other with only animations and colors being the difference. I like the idea of different sets having their own feel and flavor.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
I get that it's fun, but I'm worried that Titan weapons is Spines+, and if that's the case, Spines should get a buff.
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The problem with that, is I don't think the Spines ST attack chain took into account Quills. Which dmg auras help add up on the ST DMG (and is one of the things that will keep some combos of Scrappers equal to o surpassing Stalkers in terms of ST DPS).|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Claws just got a buff not that long ago.
The problem is: None of those sets are significantly underperforming in any area enough to warrant a buff. Spines actually does need a bit of a buff IMO. But not in the area you might think. It's not being overshadowed in AoE output by any means, but its single target damage is the worst of any melee set by a WIDE margin. According to Bill Z Bubba's DPS spreadsheet, Spines has a ST attack chain that puts out.....80 DPS. The next powerset up the ladder is Electric Melee at 103 DPS. The next one after that is Broadsword at 121 DPS. That's more than 40 DPS separating Spines and Broadsword. My goal isn't to have Spines buffed into a DPS monster like Claws or Fire Melee, it's just to maybe get Spines up to being on par with Electric Melee. |
Also...Impale -> Ripper -> Throw Spines -> Repeat = 115.4 DPS at 95.6% Enhancement slotting with no Procs or other sources of +DMG.
Quills I believe tacks on 15-20 DPS.
Since unslotted Spines does less than 80 DPS, I'm guessing your 80 DPS was with slotting.
Also, the DPS I calculated doesn't put in the added DPS of using Build Up.
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The BrandX Collection
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I don't want them to be replicas of each other, but Spines is supposed to be strong AoE, weak ST, with a strong mix of Debuff/softish control. Spines was fine in my opinion when it could be said it was the best combination of those two elements. Other set's had AoE, other sets had a strong combination of Debuff and mez, but until Titan weapons came along spines was the one that filled that role best. |
Originally Posted by Hatred666
The problem with this kind of mindset is that if they buff Spines, then other sets will be compared to Spines as a reason to need a buff, and so on, and so on, and so on. Eventually it will go full circle and we'll be back at Spines needing a buff again. Power sets shouldn't be exact replicas of each other with only animations and colors being the difference. I like the idea of different sets having their own feel and flavor.
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With Titan Weapon's addition, it has better ST damage, strongly competetive AoE damage, and comprable soft control/debuff (with additional self buff potential).
Spines standing versus other set's wouldn't be skewed if it's longer animation times were trimmed, and it's debuff ability increased. It's supposed to be better in those areas already, so any argument that sets should be buffed because of spines would need to be applied now, as well as in the case of a buff.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
The problem with that, is I don't think the Spines ST attack chain took into account Quills. Which dmg auras help add up on the ST DMG (and is one of the things that will keep some combos of Scrappers equal to o surpassing Stalkers in terms of ST DPS).
Also...Impale -> Ripper -> Throw Spines -> Repeat = 115.4 DPS at 95.6% Enhancement slotting with no Procs or other sources of +DMG. Quills I believe tacks on 15-20 DPS. Since unslotted Spines does less than 80 DPS, I'm guessing your 80 DPS was with slotting. Also, the DPS I calculated doesn't put in the added DPS of using Build Up. |
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Does it have anything over Titan Weapons? I was seeing if I wanted to buy TW and a cursory glance shows Barb swipe and Impale have animation times at the level of the TW long animations, without the ability to activate faster (as TW powers can), and less damage. Spine burst animates in more than 3s (No TW power that I'm aware of takes more than 3s to animate), does less damage, but can be used without a special effect. However, TW builds momentum so easily that really seems like a moot point.
TW has a 15' AoE, and three 10' 180deg cones (5 target cap).
Spines has a 15' AoE, an 8' toggle PBAoE (10 target cap), a 7' 90deg melee cone (5 target cap), and a 30' 90deg cone (10 target cap)
Throw spines is one of the most insane powers in the game, but can it save Spines standing in AoE? Of course taking into consideration the insane AoEs created specifically for TW.
Personally I feel Spines was ahead for AoE vs other sets; with claws being a close second if you could manage KB and keep stacks of followup, but that's ok as it was never fire and forget better at everything it was a skillshot type set. However TW is just walk in and hit everything, which takes over Spines' territory in a big way.
Spines needs buffs. Barb swipe and Spine burst both need lower activation times. Impale is probably fine as is, but the AoE ability can't really be brought to a level that beats TW suitably without becoming stupid broken. To that effect, I would thing giving a regen debuff to each attack as an extention of the toxic secondary effect. It would act as a Pseudo-ST damage buff, without pushing spines into territory that other set's hold, which would happen if the ST damage was just given a straight boost.
Anyway, am I just freaking out over nothing or is spines really being trivialized by TWs now? My Spines/Fire needs to know!
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.